Some thoughts (and questions) on the AT Pro

Steve(MS) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So far it is only a rumor.
> No, the AT Pro is single frq.
> To date here are the multis.
> CZs, Sovereigns, Explorer, Etrac, Safari, Quattro,
> Excalibur, Whites beach hunter(I forget its name),
> Whites DFX, Whites V3 and Fisher has a water
> detector that is multi, also a CZ.
> Whites and Fishers are dual frq except for the V3
> which can be set to 3 frqs or 1.
>
> As far as + and - of multis, it is debateable on
> the advantages.
> Multis do better in salt water generally
!
> speaking.
> Multis tend to do better when more minerals are
> present in ground.


i would "much" rather they "hit" us with a "low" frequency version of the g2
for "sniping" silver at depth! thru the junk!..maybe "e-trac" depth utilizing the current
simple platform in the g2..just sayin!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

From my understanding , the Minelab machines are contantly changing frequencies as the coil moves around ....It basically chooses the best frequency to use for a given situation ......The CZ series runs 2 boards, one at 5khz and the other at 15khz and BOTH frequencies are working at the same time on any given target ... I'd like to see Fisher come out with a hybrid that runs at say 3khz 10khz and 20khz and all of them runnging at the same time .....All this while giving a digital readout as to what the Conductive and Ferrrous of the target are ...... Something similar to the Minelab matrix, and waterproof .... ......Costly ? ....Yes .......Set the detecting world on fire ? ......I'll buy the first one and report every day !!....Jim

Wonder when they will let the cat out of the bag?

Multi-freq units are (in general.....if engineered properly) are much better in bad dirt. Utilize all freq's....and analyze all freq's......for better ID......are (usually) deeper. BUT.....not as good at ID'ing iron. Yet, I'd like to say......with current technological advancements......maybe this 'iron' issue is mostly resolved.

Tom,
The E Trac has come a long way from the earlier ML machines ..... It handles iron SO MUCH better tha the earlier machines ...... It still has a long way to go ...... Actually , I"m pretty blown away by how well the AT Pro handles iron for an inexpensive machine !!..... Put the ML matrix on a AT Pro and that would be a pretty sweet machine .....Jim

I must agree IRT the AT Pro...........regardless of price.............it handles iron exceptionally well..........even with a (suspected) shieldless paint coil (and subsequent issues). You have NO idea ......from a design engineering stand-point........how difficult it is to engineer/handle/process iron!!! This is a D.E.'s nightmare.

The Etrac seems to handle iron with ease. My ET buddies NEVER dig bottle caps....all of my FT single freq machines with DD coils love bottle caps (although I've heard the T2 BC mode does a good job vetting out crown caps).

I probably will not buy another First Texas machine until they either release a new multifrequency machine, or something on the order of the Omega with a super boost mode (even then, it's iffy, the darn thing LOVES bottle caps with the the DD coil) because the past few years of FT releases have, IMHO, all been variations on a theme, unfortunately the same theme. I know there are tricks and techniques that can help you analyze if a target is a bottle cap or not, but while you're there applying all these tricks and tips, my ET buddies are digging deep silver in amongst trash (bottle caps, pull-tabs, etc).

Out here we have complex soil, and coins in parks tend to be deep and/or masked by iron or other trash, so we need all the advantages possible, and right now the Etrac seems to be the machine answering that call. As heavy as it is, it does an awesome job getting deep silver in mineralized soil amongst trash and iron.


NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Multi-freq units are (in general.....if engineered
> properly) are much better in bad dirt. Utilize all
> freq's....and analyze all freq's......for better
> ID......are (usually) deeper. BUT.....not as good
> at ID'ing iron. Yet, I'd like to say......with
> current technological advancements......maybe this
> 'iron' issue is mostly resolved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2011 07:09PM by Cal_cobra.

Every numeric machine on the market has a numbering system for their targets ..... Each machine is different ......The number for a Nickel on the AT Pro is 53 .......On the E Trac the number is 12/13 .......The 12 represents the Ferrous number on the E Trac , and the 13 represents the Conductive number on the E Trac .... Every target has a Ferrous and a Conductive number ....

Picture if you will a piece of graph paper with all those pefect little squares on it .......Start in the upper left hand corner of the graph paper and pick a nice little square .....and we'll call that square 1 ......Go to the right and and make that square 2, and continue on to the right until you get to square 50 .........Now go bsck to square 1 and drop DOWN on square and call that square 2, and drop down one more square and cal lthat square 3 .....Continue on down until you get to square 35 ........All the squares that go from left to right 1-50 are called the Conductive scale ......All the numbers going from 1 -35 are called the Ferrous Scale ....... Each target as I said has a Conductive content , and a Ferrous content ....Minelab has a system whereby most of the clad coins will fall on the Ferrous 12 line .....hense the nickel being a 12 Ferrous , and the Conductive number is 13.....Where the 12 Ferrous square , and the 13 Conductive square intersect is the one little box that represents a Nickel !!.....This is true for each target that you hit ..... Now , lets move ahead here ......Lets say you have a quarter , and the conductive number on the quarter is 46 ( which it really is ) .... Now lets say that the bottle cap's Conductive number is ALSO number 46 !!.... With most machines this is a problem .....With the E Trac this is NOT a problem ....Remembering the coins fall on the 12 Ferrous line , so the number that comes up for a quarter is 12/46 .......When you hit the bottle cap , the bottle cap has more iron in it , and hense more Ferrous content ....So the bottle cap may have a Ferrous number of 30 ......So this makes the bottle cap's number that comes up on the E Trac as 30/46 .....These numbers intersect no where NEAR a quarters intersection .......If you have the iron discriminated out on your E Trac , you will not even hear the bottle cap !!.....It's a non issue !!..... You will NEVER hear a bottle cap at all if you have it discriminated out which in most cases you will !!...... THIS is what makes Minelabs matrix such a powerful tool as well as other features ......

THIS is what I would like to see in a Fisher machine !!......A multi freqency machine with a matrix similar to ML .... First Texas is one of the only companies that can pull a detector like this off ...... If they could just stop making all these rebadged detectors , and consentrate on ONE KILLER MACHINE , ........OH HAPPY DAY !!!......Jim

I have to agree with Cal. My E-Trac hunting buddy has quite a nice sized box of silver coins. In fact, 95+ percent of those silver coins are dimes. Our soil & old park conditions are exactly like Cal's, here in Idaho mining country. My White's Silver Eagle (little brother to Eagle Spectrum) never gets a peep on my buddy's E-Trac deep dime/penny hits. No matter how I adjust the machine.
Chomping at the bit to see if my new T2 can do better, if the darn weather would get better.

As with the Explorer.....the F75/T2 will show 'quarter' on a quarter............and 'quarter' on a steel bottlecap.....but the "Conf" bar-graph will indicate very low. Apples-to-apples.

synthnut thanks for the description on how the Explorer/Etracs conductivity screen works. Although I've seen my buddies hunt with them a zillion times, the matrix was a mystery, but your explanation was perfect, and I think that's a great tool to hunt with. Maybe I'll just forgo the AT Pro and bit the bullet on an Etrac, although sure as you know what, as soon as I pull the trigger on an Etrac Minelab will release the Etrac2

Cal ,
Many claim that the learning curve is steep on the E Trac .....It does take more time to learn , and to remember what does what and where ....Once you wrap your head around it , and you know the area's that you hunt , you basically set up what I call a preset ( Minelab calls them Modes and Patterns ), and then you load the preset , and you noise cancel ( you do this before hunting ANY area.....It takes the electrical noise from the area that you are hunting , and eliminates electrical noise from the machine ) and you go hunting just as easily as any other machine ..... You have a couple of button presses if you want to check your target in Quick Mask mode or pinpoint .....That's it !!......MOST of the work done to the machine is preliminary work setting the preset up for your hunting area ....I have presets for the beach , the park , the schools , etc .......I discriminate anything that I am not looking for on the E Trac because you don't loose any depth by using discrimnation as you do on other machines ..... As I said , each square represents a target .....You don't want Zinc Pennies but you do what all the other coins? ...No problem ....Blacken that square out of the matrix !!.....Don't want Nickels ? ....Take that square out too !!....Mix and match whatever you do or don't want ......Why listen to everything if you're not going to get penalized for it ? ..... If all you want to cherry pick is quarters , you can set up a program that finds only quarters !!!.....Minelab includes patterns and modes to get you started that are very broad programs , so you take those and modify them for your tastes and for your area , and save them as your own in the USER area ......Most all of the features that you REALLY need on the ETrac are all saved as part of your preset when you load it ......There are those who see all these features as overwhelming and they sell the machine not long after they buy it .... They claim it's too complicated to wrap their heads around .....The thing of it is , ETrac owners are MORE THAN GLAD to lend a hand helping out the newbie to get them rolling ...... YES it takes more time to learn , and YES it has many more features , and YES there is much more to remember about the machine when setting it up ....BUT .....YES , it does go deep on Silver , and YES it discrimnates better than anything out there , and YES it handles Iron very well , and YES you can take it to the beach and hunt in wet , dry , or any other kind of sand with great results ...... You can't dunk it under water , but you can run in shallow water without a problem ...Salt or Fresh !!.... and YES it's a proven machine ...... Price ? ....Who cares !!....It pays for itself in no time wth the targets you find !!.... ML is getting too corporate for my money .....They need some GOOD competition to rattle their cage .....to let them know that they are not the only game in town ......FIrst Texas , love it or not , is one of the only companies that has the money and the knowledge to do this ...... Yes , variety IS the spice of life , but the BEST MACHINE GET"S THE BEST PRIZE !!!....... JIm


Getting back to the original thread , ( DUH !! ) ...... If you want simple and deep , with VERY LITTLE setup time , the AT PRO is the way to go !!...ESPECIALLY now that it doesn't false like it use to !!...Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 11:04AM by synthnut.

I have a few thoughts.

There is NO DOUBT that the Etrac is a great machine, and NO DOUBT it is a deep silver killer (in my mind). However, interesting experience I just had. I hunted this weekend, side-by-side, with two Etrac users, one of which I'd consider a true expert on the machine. He pulls more silver from the ground around here than anyone I know. We went to a spot they hunt, that is known for producing silver. While hunting, he and I worked together, and checked at least half of the "targets" that the "other guy" hit. If I hit something interesting, I'd call him over and he'd run the Etrac over it,and then we'd discuss it before we dug. Same with him. If he hit what he felt was something good, he'd call me over and I'd run my F70 over it. Now, given that he is, IMO, and Etrac "expert" (and a MUCH MUCH more experienced detectorist than I), and given that I have only had my F70 for a few weeks, there were VERY FEW times when he was confident on a target, and I was not. There were times when I'd have iron false high-tones, and ask him to check it out, and with his ability to see the "ferrous" number, he'd say "naah...it says junk on my machine." But on the other hand, he hit a target that he was SURE was a wheat penny, at 7". I ran the F70 over it, and there was NO WAY. It was a jumpy, deeper target -- I had guessed an 11" piece of junk. I told him jokingly that if he pulled a wheat penny, I'd EAT it, I was so sure that this target was junk. Well, it was an 11-12" piece of junk. My point is, I now know that while it is a GREAT machine, the Etrac doesn't just "SMOKE" the F70. Like I say, there were times when he was very confident on the target, and yet even an inexperienced F70 user like me was more sure that it was junk. Later, there was another target where I was certain it was a zinc penny, he was certain it was a copper penny, and we even bet a Coke on who was right. It ended up, we were both wrong -- it was a junk jewelry trinket, if I recall. One place the Etrac DID beat the F70, was on a 9-ish inch deep 1892 Barber quarter that was sitting perfectly vertical/on-edge. Circling the target, I could get an occasional high tone amongst low tones; one of the other guys using an Etrac hit that target MUCH harder. He had a "definite dig" signal, I had a "probably iron falsing" signal that I would NOT have dug. But, my overall impression after 4 hours of hunting with multiple Etrac users, some VERY good with them, was that the F70 will hold its own. When they hit a solid, repeatable silver signal at 6-7", my machine read the same way. When I'd hit a target that I could get a decent sound in one direction but not others, the Etrac guys would see basically the same thing -- a good tone at times, in one direction, but not repeatable. Anyway, that's just FWIW.

I'm sure the results would have been similar if comparing an AT-Pro, or any other decent machine, to the Etrac. One thing I learned (among many other things) on this hunt was that something I have heard said many times was proven, to me, to be true. That is, there is no one "perfect" machine, and each has their strengths and weaknesses -- but all are capable of being good detectors in the hands of experienced users. It was eye-opening for me.

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 05:02PM by steveg.

In general.......elliptical DD coils do not like 'on-edge' targets.

Interesting, and somewhat surprising, to me anyway (elliptical DDs not liking "on-edge" targets)...

Steve

Jim,
Regarding the Etrac. Is there a penalty for running discrimination when trying to unmask targets? It's a question I have never gotten a definite answer on. Will the Etrac respond from a null just as well as it will from an open screen when a good target is adjacent to an iron target? Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Andy Sabisch contends in his book that the E-Trac actually tends to unmask better with some ferrous disc dialed in. I happen to agree. I've had several of all three Explorers leading up now to the ET and especially with the first two (XS and II), I couldn't say that.