Vote No on issue 2 on the website banner?

Before Ohioans can intelligently vote on this issue...please read more about both sides before you vote! It's time "public" employees live like the rest of us...no union to protect you if you are a slacker or are ineffective-you must prove your worth like the rest of us. A pension after 20-30 years...hmm...I wish I had that but I don't like most public/city or government workers do but that's OK since I'll just save and put money away into my 403 B and IRA/savings account not expect a pension to "bail" me out when I retire since I never bothered to save.


Further and a different issue...Social Security and Medicare alone not to mention Medicaid are all entitlements that are bankrupting this country...look at Greece...what happened to saving for retirement and living within ones means? Most hardly put any money into the sytem in the first place and get "paid" every month for years sometimes 30-40 or even more without doing anything for anyone or the country for it. We all need to be responsible for ourselves and not expect the government or really the taxpayers with less than half the peeps in this country to take care of everybody!

Gosh, gold just went over $1800...thanks to all the insecurity created by this mess!

P.S. I know this is an emotional issue for most but we all need to think about the big picture and the importance of self reliance to really even the field for all



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 05:51PM by christopher-ohio.

Ron Paul for President

"Responsible" appears to be a fleeting glimpse of the past..... replaced by 'greed'.

HI OHIO, If you were in a actendent at work or going to work, do you have enought money to last you till you die? If so you must of hit the lottery. I broke my back and it took 11/2 years to get Social Security, that took about all the money i had to live on that i had saved. I didn,t have a dime income. Just so happened that my wifes job closed about the same time. Now i get S.S. that i payed in my dad pay in, my grandfather payed in and on and on. IT is not S.S. and Medicare, it is all those in govenerment that spent the money that was for S.S . Get your facts right before you go off on something you know nouthing about.

I think before we even talk about SS and Medicare ( which most of us pay into, so in some weird way, we are 'entitled' to something), we need to look at all the money we give foreign nations, the cost of wars we cannot afford and the corporate greed running rampant via outsourcing jobs and continuing to make the bottom line the only line.

As far as public employees go, I support my police and fire forces and all those public employees that do their job. They have mandatory pension deductions taken out of their checks each pay
(which I am sure here in NJ, they would be glad to forego and invest their own money since their pension funds are extremely under funded..... not by their own doing), yet the politicians that robbed their fund indirectly by not funding it in order to buy votes, use it as a catalyst to stir up public vs. private sector employees.

Don't fall for that trap Christopher. Put the microscope under the POLITICIANS first and foremost.

Me...I know it's total B.S. here in NJ because we never heard of this garbage 20 years ago. Matter of fact, being a public employee was laughable since the pay was peanuts. Now, these politicians are making police officers, firemen and teachers the bad guy. I remember my parents telling me to respect police officers, firemen and teachers and have contempt for EVERY politician out there. I still do.

What burns my butt is, whenever a police officer or fire person die in an accident, the politicians are the first in line to get their picture in the paper or their statement in the press.

Sorry guys and gals for the post...many volatile issues with many heated opinions for both sides...Tom, please just have the post deleted since no hard feelings were meant to be created just a "really think about it and the big picture" kinda thing...that's all...sorry for any offense to anyone..it really is all so crazy and so screwed up probably beyond fixing to any extent any more...Peace

"It's time "public" employees live like the rest of us...no union to protect you if you are a slacker or are ineffective-you must prove your worth like the rest of us."

Let's get some facts straight here. First off, Unions negotiate a Collective Bargaining Agreement with the company of which you are employed. THEY, the Company, agree to the terms as well as the Union. In turn the "bargaining unit" pays a fee to the Union, ie union dues, to offset the cost of negotiating a contract in their best interests. Don't bash on Unions because you don't have something that someone else has paid their fare share for. If you want to bash on someone, bash on this country's dead-beat congress (both sides of the isle) with their Cadillac healthcare plans that they receive for life... voted into existence by themselves!!! They receive $176,000 per year and they can't even balance a checkbook. The Republicans cry tax breaks for businesses so they can create jobs... well, show me the jobs they are creating for their tax breaks they are getting! You are right about one thing... greed. Corporate greed is killing this country. Wake up America... its called living within your means. Cut up the credit cards and learn that you can live WITHOUT everything you think you have to purchase.

Ok, that's enough of this crap.... I'm getting wound up. I'm going back to lurking again.

"Happy hunting" - Schultzie

If it wernt for unions there would be no middle class in this country and employees would have to work for what ever the employers wanted to pay em. If all the money spent in and on Iraq , Afganstan and given to other countrys were spent in this country every one would be better off. We have over 200 military bases in Germany and over 100 in Japan. ,WHY? They don't have any in the USA.

There would be no problem with s.s. if our GOVERNMENT had left it alone. Started BORROWING from it in the 60s i believe. Used it to fund other things. Last i heard they had BORROWED 1.7 trillion from it. So they owe this much back to s.s. plus the 3 percent intrest.

Chris.....don't feel bad about your post. Occasionaly we have spirited topics here at Tom's. As long as no one gets abusive, threatening or downright mean, Tom let's it be. He's really cool about freedom of expression as long as it is done in a respectful manner. I think Tom follows our Forefather's belief that the right to dissent is a basic human freedom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 04:27AM by TerraDigger.

Pro/Con is always educational...... and love the 'energy' (spirit). We are all red-blooded humans........... and ........... in the end........ have nearly exactly the same belief. Just simply a different approach path to get to the same end resultant. You would be surprised!

Just my 2 cents, I am a retired Police Sgt. and our pension has nothing to do with public funds. We paid 4 % into a private police pension that was overseen by the City. It is a good pension that fortunately is protected by State Statute and not accesible to any polititions. As far as the 20 - 30 yr retirements, there is very few jobs that could compare to a policemans daily routine. Consider being shot at, fights with a mental person, some very gruesome crime scenes and worst of all crimes against children. Firefighters here have the same pension and equally earn it. Hard to compare that with a desk job in an air conditioned office! I do feel that teachers with the awesome responsibility of training your children certainly deserve a lot more than they get

Unfortunately there are some idiots out there in uniform and that was part of my job keeping them to a minimum.

Thanks for letting me have my say
Suncoast Wally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 04:44AM by Suncoast Wally.

christopher-ohio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Before Ohioans can intelligently vote on this
> issue...please read more about both sides before
> you vote! It's time "public" employees live like
> the rest of us...no union to protect you if you
> are a slacker or are ineffective-you must prove
> your worth like the rest of us. A pension after
> 20-30 years...hmm...I wish I had that but I don't
> like most public/city or government workers do but
> that's OK since I'll just save and put money away
> into my 403 B and IRA/savings account not expect a
> pension to "bail" me out when I retire since I
> never bothered to save.
>
>
> Further and a different issue...Social Security
> and Medicare alone not to mention Medicaid are all
> entitlements that are bankrupting this
> country...look at Greece...what happened to saving
> for retirement and living within ones means? Most
> hardly put any money into the sytem in the first
> place and get "paid" every month for years
> sometimes 30-40 or even more without doing
> anything for anyone or the country for it. We all
> need to be responsible for ourselves and not
> expect the government or really the taxpayers with
> less than half the peeps in this country to take
> care of everybody!
>
> Gosh, gold just went over $1800...thanks to all
> the insecurity created by this mess!
>
> P.S. I know this is an emotional issue for most
> but we all need to think about the big picture and
> the importance of self reliance to really even the
> field for all


point understood,however social security is NOT an entitlement program!
the people getting ss aid MOST worked for it all their lives and paid for it! let's not forget this!
it's important to keep things in proper perspective!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Hi All, I didn,t mean to get anything going here, i understand that alot of SHi## gones on with food stamps,ssi for people that just don,t work, Med.cards. But that is not Social Security. Even unemployment is being used by some. I know people that has said as long as they get it they are not looking for work. Sometimes people need help that is ok help them, but don,t give them a free ride. Sorry All Flintstone

ronin12524 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Paul for President


I agree Why people are so easily hoodwinked by sleazy politicians that only care about enriching themselves & their cronies is beyond me. Ron Paul is the last chance we have at getting a President for the "little guy" - like you & I. Sure, he isn't exciting, he's not really a great debater or public speaker & you certainly won't be entertained by stories of sexual misdeeds and that sort of stuff. BUT, if you want a true leader, a visionary who actually predicted the economic meltdown - with specifics - in 2003, vote Paul in 2012. This man KNOWS HIS STUFF!!! He's also been a STRONG advocate of auditing the Fed for many, many years. Need I say more.

Wake up people. Choosing a President shouldn't be based on who has the best oratorical skills. It shouldn't be based on who's better looking. It shouldn't be based on who can play a musical instrument or get a few laughs on the nightly talk shows. It shouldn't be based on how much money a candidate raises. Rather, it SHOULD be based on ones character, intelligence, common sense & will to get things done.

mike from Illinois Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There would be no problem with s.s. if our
> GOVERNMENT had left it alone. Started BORROWING
> from it in the 60s i believe. Used it to fund
> other things. Last i heard they had BORROWED 1.7
> trillion from it. So they owe this much back to
> s.s. plus the 3 percent intrest.


What would you have them do with it, keep it in there mattress? It makes sense to loan it out ,with intrest and who else could they loan it to? If the US Govt can' pay it back I don't know who could. Anyway Its just paper.

Njnydigger,

You just listed the reasons Ron Paul ( who I have voted for in every Presidential primary he has been in) will not get the nomination. He is not 'press' savvy and will never be a TV darling.

If more people understand that some of his views, however radical they may seem, are along the same lines as our forefathers ( such as limited gov't, no federal reserve, isolationism in terms of meddling in foreign affairs when it comes to war, etc.) they may get a better idea that some of these views are mandatory in this day and age. Heck, the Tea Party should endorse him before any other candidate since they are for the Constitution and all it entails ( then they got hijacked by the Republican Party and went astray).

We cannot afford to print money, lend money to foreign nations, and spend money on wars , when we HAVE NO MONEY and more and more people are out of work !

Maybe more people should read his book The Revolution, to get a better glimpse. Not saying it will change anyones mind, but it does put certain things in perspective.

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Njnydigger,
>
> You just listed the reasons Ron Paul ( who I have
> voted for in every Presidential primary he has
> been in) will not get the nomination. He is not
> 'press' savvy and will never be a TV darling.
>
> If more people understand that some of his views,
> however radical they may seem, are along the same
> lines as our forefathers ( such as limited gov't,
> no federal reserve, isolationism in terms of
> meddling in foreign affairs when it comes to war,
> etc.) they may get a better idea that some of
> these views are mandatory in this day and age.
> Heck, the Tea Party should endorse him before any
> other candidate since they are for the
> Constitution and all it entails ( then they got
> hijacked by the Republican Party and went astray).
>
>
> We cannot afford to print money, lend money to
> foreign nations, and spend money on wars , when we
> HAVE NO MONEY and more and more people are out of
> work !
>
> Maybe more people should read his book The
> Revolution, to get a better glimpse. Not saying it
> will change anyones mind, but it does put certain
> things in perspective.


Sadly, I'd have to agree with you on this one, Rove Few voters are actually interested in the facts. Few voters are interested in the issues. Few voters are interested in the TRUTH. Rather, the vast majority of the population is much more concerned with Sunday's football game or the latest Dancing with the Stars castoff. While my own personal thinking is that Ron Paul is the last chance we have to get a radical 'change-maker' elected, most others could care less. They want theatrics, a charming speaker, scandal, salaciousness. This is NOT Ron Paul. So, it's going to be a long shot for sure. Oh yeah, the media doesn't help as well. I think he fielded a whole 3 or 4 questions at the last debate. Sad.

"If it wernt for unions there would be no middle class in this country... "


Sorry, but that is simply NOT true.

TheOtherLeggoHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If it wernt for unions there would be no middle
> class in this country... "
>
>
> Sorry, but that is simply NOT true.

Really? Who gave us the minimum wage, 40 hour work week, health care benefits, etc. Companies certainly did not. Unions paved the way for a better life for working America!!! That is a FACT!

Middle Class is too subjective a term in this day and age.

I would say unions paved the way for Fair Labor Standards, better working conditions, better wages, etc. You can have all of those and still be poor due to bad spending habits, hard luck, etc. You can also be pretty well off with those too, so it works both ways.

However, I don't think ( my opinion ) that one would be able to make a good living in this day and age without some of the things unions have put into place. This opinion based on the current corporate greed structure of today.

MF Global being a perfect example. Over 1000 people fired due to a few greedy egomaniacs.

The unions started out for the good of the working people, but the power bug bit them in the arse. They became too strong, too unreasonably demanding and now there a detramint to its members and society. The ones who end up paying high prices for the union companies products or services are us. I'm not union bashing here, but come on, they have too much control and have gone too far.

I'm not saying this out of ignorance, I was a trade union member many years and got a small eyefull of how they operate. After I left the union I was on the other end as a non union contractor. The union business agents would come onto the jobsite and say "this is our territory, we want you to hire on some union members or else we will put up a pickett line". I would answer them by saying "this job wasn't bid using union wages and benifits, the money isn't there, I can't and will not do it." They try to intimidate and have often followed through on their threats or, some will take a payoff,....it's old news, everyone's heard or read about this.
Many a non union contractor would have to worry about there job sites and equiptment getting vandalized because the union mindset is that THEY only have the right to work and the cities are THEIR domain...Please

I have been a Union member for 26 years. I have seen what they are all about.

Why did GM and Chrysler go "belly up"? Take a guess.

Unions have caused alot of the current economic crisis. Alot.

I am all for pay based on merit, not who you vote for, or who you are related to, or who is sleeping in the companies job bank.


[www.thetruthaboutcars.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 12:27AM by TheOtherLeggoHead.

Its hard to maintain a system when there are far more people about to draw SS than pay in. Barrowed.... id say the government stole our pension. They took our savings and spent it.... how would they pay it back? Im on a pension....yep.... 22 years in the Military. That was something i earned and everyone benefited from. There wasnt a lot of saving money in the military.... most of the time its hand to mouth in other countries and constant moves. As a service man .... a retirement check is about what you can expect any more. Yet politicians seem to have no limit to access and pensions.... to include those accumulated campain funds. Its no longer about us..... its about our kids and grand kids and what they can expect with foreign governments bleeding us dry and greedy corporations like Wal-mart trying to make an outrageous profit and put the mom and pop stores out of business..... Sam must be rolling over in his grave. Im not certain the unions do much now but take your money..... if the company cant come to an agreement with unions..... they close their and move over seas. Im willing to pay a little more to buy MADE IN THE USA...... but come on stop expecting $50 an hour wages. It just seems the more you make ..... the higher things cost. Ive learned to live simple .... dont have much dont ask for much.... if i cant pay for it i dont have it. Like most the real nightmare is health and how do you pay if you get ill...... save for it?

Dew

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The unions started out for the good of the working
> people, but the power bug bit them in the arse.
> They became too strong, too unreasonably demanding
> and now there a detramint to its members and
> society. The ones who end up paying high prices
> for the union companies products or services are
> us. I'm not union bashing here, but come on, they
> have too much control and have gone too far.
>
> I'm not saying this out of ignorance, I was a
> trade union member many years and got a small
> eyefull of how they operate. After I left the
> union I was on the other end as a non union
> contractor. The union business agents would come
> onto the jobsite and say "this is our territory,
> we want you to hire on some union members or else
> we will put up a pickett line". I would answer
> them by saying "this job wasn't bid using union
> wages and benifits, the money isn't there, I can't
> and will not do it." They try to intimidate and
> have often followed through on their threats or,
> some will take a payoff,....it's old news,
> everyone's heard or read about this.
> Many a non union contractor would have to worry
> about there job sites and equiptment getting
> vandalized because the union mindset is that THEY
> only have the right to work and the cities are
> THEIR domain...Please


Right' , and the "power bug " never bit the poor Corps. and there under paid CEO,s

Companies and corporations produce, and create jobs, what do unions do these days? other than drive companies overseas where the labor is cheaper. American companies have to go out of business because they can"t compete against overseas companies. What did they do for our car makers?

Say you start a company. The union steps in and your workers get talked into joining. The union says your employees need to have this pay rate and these benefits or else they will go on strike. Did you start your company to have the union as your partner, a partner that makes money from you and your employees but takes no risk. It's bad enough companies have the govt as a partner that takes money and has no risks & no responsibilities in your company.
Now you have to raise the price of your product or cut somewhere else. Should you, can you, lower your profit margin?...wait a minuite, you put your head on the choppin block to start and run this business, whats the incentive if there is little or no proffit for the many risks and high stress? I am oversimplifying here because as you know, it's much more complicated than this.

Corruption has run ramped in the unions as well as our government...it's what power does to people, like a drug, they get hooked and need more and more till they crash,,,... and burn everything around them.
So, how can man change? Learn by our mistakes?.. we haven't yet. I certainly don't have a solution, it's too entangeled. Heck, I'm going detecting tomorrow.

My feelings on unions. I studied them in-depth for my degree in Public Administration, plus my own personal studies. They were necessary way back in the past 1880-1940. Due to horrible employer practices. Today, I would say 95% of unions are detrimental for reasons already posted and not posted. I grew up in a neighborhood that was populated by alot of union workers (family/friends) from many different industries, so don't think I am anti-union. Most unions are corrupt and detrimentally self-serving in modern times. And yes, for an example, $50.00 per hour to assemble cars is bull****, and so is the tenure concept/practice.

TerraDigger --

I couldn't agree more. Same with ozzie and leggohead. Unions were very necessary way back -- served a very important function. However, along the way, they got TOO powerful, demanded TOO much of companies, and in the process they cut off their own noses to spite their faces. In other words, demand TOO much, and the company goes out of business, and with it goes your PENSION. Unions have become addicted to power, and now are self-serving, destructive organizations by and large. Setting up an adversarial relationship between workers and the company, pounding it into each worker's head that the company is the enemy and you must fight them to your dying breath, is a toxic model that in the long run cannot work.

Americans have to wake up, IMO. We DEMAND low-priced products, and at the same time DEMAND $50 per hour, union-protected jobs. You can't have both! Labor costs are the biggest expense in manufacturing companies; rising labor costs mean rising prices! A demand for lower prices requires cuts in labor costs! We have all, myself included, gotten used to big houses and multiple vehicles and flat-screen TVs in multiple rooms. In many cases, these homes have been built by illegal (cheap) laborers, the vehicles built overseas by companies employing cheap laborers, and the TVs have been built overseas by companies employing cheap laborers -- WHILE we purchase each of these things on CREDIT. And we wonder why we have a credit crisis, and why unemployment is rampant with companies utilizing cheap, foreign labor?

At some point, our country is going to have to wake up...and accept the reality of smaller homes, fewer vehicles, fewer TVs and other electronic gizmos. We will have to pay more for these items, and buy fewer of them. We can't have super-cheap stuff AND high domestic employment -- that is unsustainable. Further, we will have to re-learn to accept twenty percent down payments on homes, and purchasing everything else with cash. Credit -- i.e. paying TOMORROW for what we want TODAY, so as to desperately try to maintain a "wealthy" facade, has to end. Until we can do that, our problems will persist. We are in a death spiral -- trying to "keep up the Jones's" and maintain the facade that we are all "rich," which can only be done by buying artificially cheap stuff through use of massive amounts of credit. Things will not change until it all blows up (and it is in the process of happening now), as none of us will do it voluntarily, and no politician will let this mess occur on "his watch." It will be forced upon us -- and we may as well begin right now to accept that we will likely go back to a 1950s-type lifestyle (small homes, one vehicle, basic necessities and houshold appliances, paying with cash not credit). This era of "living large" has about played itself out -- that ship done sailed! We have as a society become too greedy, too lazy, too entitled -- as we've been spoiled by the incredible safety provided by our military and the incredible wealth our country generated in decades past. As a country we have forgotten what sacrifice, hard work, and responsibility mean; we have forgotten what it means to live within our means; we have forgotten the cost of freedom and instead have become spoiled by "the good life." We have become a country, as a whole, with an attitude of self-focus and entitlement, and greed has run rampant. Change is on the horizon, and it will NOT be painless. Re-adjusting one's attitude is never painless, and this is what we are facing, individually AND collectively. We are all guilty -- some more than others. I just hope that what made our country great -- our form of government and our proud, freedom-loving, hard-working, self-sacrifical people -- still exist, albeit buried under a thick layer of complacency and corruption.

Just my two cents worth...

Steve

Terra and steveg, you guys put pen to paper nicely, well said.

Very exacting.

Always interesting to see many different (passionate) perspectives..... on both sides..... and always with a large percentage of (measurably realized) 'correctness'. Both sides.

Reinstill discipline (Spare the rod..... spoil the child).
Reinstate silver & gold standard.
(Most problems will resolve).


(((Christopher.... see what you started!!)))