I Am Genuinely Curious

Somebody please explain to me the value of hunting in all metal mode.

I get the idea of increased depth and sensitivity.

But then I am told that when a potnetial target is hit, you switch to discriminate and if the signal disappears, you move on.

Hold up a second.

We all know that when you switch from All Metal to discrimination you lose depth. Maybe not a lot, but some depth is lost automatically.

So if the target disappears, how do you know its garbage?

It might be a good target that simply lies outside the detection field of your coil when the detector is in discriminate mode.

And if you do switch from All Metal to discriminate and the detector confirms its junk, well, you could have just started hunting in discriminate mode and gotten the same information. No switching required.

Am I overthinking this?

smudge, i have a cz20, cz6a, and an excal...........all are deeper in disc mode!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2012 02:40AM by seeker41.

I think the ideal is that in 'all metal', you will detect targets that are out of the range (depth wise) than if you were hunting in disc. You won't be able to tell what it is other than it's 'metal', but at least you found something most detectorist wouldn't have found while using 'disc'. ...and it might be something good. Some people will take a bit of sand/soil off of the top of such a target to get the coil down closer to it, and see if your detector will pick it up in discrimination and possibly identify what it is.

It's just a way to find deeper targets than using disc. If it's a weak signal, it might be something very small close to the surface and will sound like it's deep. When you locate a weak sounding target in "all metal" (which is what you should be using it for in the first place... 'weak signals'), then changing to 'disc' will help you figure out if the target is something really deep (you won't hear it) or if it's something really small and close to the surface (you will still hear a weak signal).

It's a bit more work, but if targets are few and far between, it may give you something you would have not found if using disc all the time.

I think I said that right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2012 12:31AM by connortn.

My Sovereign GT is deeper in Disc mode. I read about reverse discrimination hunting all the time for beach hunting. I just never had a detector where it would be worth while I guess. I think on the Excal II if you keep flipping that knob back and forth you are eventually going to break that switch. Most guys I know that reverse hunt put a botton or switch mod on the handle. More power to em. I'll just hunt in Discrim and hunt for that line.

connortn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the ideal is that in 'all metal', you will
> detect targets that are out of the range (depth
> wise) than if you were hunting in disc. You won't
> be able to tell what it is other than it's
> 'metal', but at least you found something most
> detectorist wouldn't have found while using
> 'disc'. ...and it might be something good. Some
> people will take a bit of sand/soil off of the top
> of such a target to get the coil down closer to
> it, and see if your detector will pick it up in
> discrimination and possibly identify what it is.
>
>
> It's just a way to find deeper targets than using
> disc. If it's a weak signal, it might be
> something very small close to the surface and will
> sound like it's deep. When you locate a weak
> sounding target in "all metal" (which is what you
> should be using it for in the first place...
> 'weak signals'), then changing to 'disc' will help
> you figure out if the target is something really
> deep (you won't hear it) or if it's something
> really small and close to the surface (you will
> still hear a weak signal).
>
> It's a bit more work, but if targets are few and
> far between, it may give you something you would
> have not found if using disc all the time.
>
> I think I said that right.


Ok, that makes sense to me. Thanks!

My Xcal is deeper in PP than disc.... but there are reasons why. In disc im limited as to how much sensitivity i can use.... not so in PP. I hunt in both..... but like disc better. why? its not as reduced/sized volume so if it squeeks i pick up on it easier. PP i tend to have to move a little slower to get a deeper target than disc you really have to pay attention and pick up on repeatable tiny (size) threshold sounds you can miss them easily. Where as in disc the sound is loud enough to make you check. On those really deep targets that null.... the only ways is take some sand off because i have found gold rings that nulled. Some hunters that say PP is deeper have amplified or put a larger coil on their machines and have to reduce the sensitivity in disc. Some hunters can do the same thing in disc.... listen to the nulls or blanks and recheck those from various directions..... just like reverse disc. There are situations where i prefer PP..... like when the water is ruff or at the shore line with a lot of wave action or even when there is just not much out there.... just more to change it up. I know..... you are thinking just get a PI if you like to dig. For me...... ive checked a LOT of signals with the Xcal from PP to disc there are very few that disc dont give you a beep on.... depending on you swing, highth of coil ect. Now i think it has more to do with wanting to work an area as opposed to covering more ground for the larger tickets each has its advantage given the time you have.

Dew

Its not for every place but an extremely old area with targets few and far in between I will run my CZ6A in autotune( basically all metal) and when I get a hit just click the dial one up and your in disc and get a probable ID. Is it deeper perhaps not but in autotune just covers more area basically making your 8 inch coil a larger coil with more coverage.

As far as running in all metal and switching to disc it goes away has me confused also as certainly no advantage in my book unless perhaps hunting for relics but for coins generally useless. Now we do have units that ID in all metal and can understand one wanting to know whats in the ground at a certain location but again expect a noisy unit.
For what its worth some units go deeper in all metal and others don't so learning your unit also comes into play.

If I'm on the beach with my Etrac and conditions allow I hunt in PP. It has hit targets that I lose when I got to even an open screen in normal hunting mode. If there's much black sand around though it can get kind of chattery. I have hit a matchbox truck at a measured 18" in dry sand one time though. Pretty good for that machine on the beach.

I just made a post about hunting in all metal mode with my F75SE for the very first time. The thread is below this one. I didn't realize that this thread was about that subject. But I am not real qualified to answer this question because I tried it the first time in the woods yesterday. And now, I can see the benefits of it. Especially in the kind of dirt that I was working in. very mineralized. But it turned out to be a much better way to hunt (in my opinion) than using the Disc Mode when trash is scarce, and anything metal is a potental relic. And the F75SE, in boost mode (I think that the Boost Mode carries over into the All Metal mode if I have been reading correctly) is very sensitive, even to the stell arches in your boots, or your shovel, if swung to close to the coil. I now realize that All Metal mode has a useful function for me. I never dreamed I'd use it, but now see the value of it in clean ground where maximum depth is desired. But I'm a one-timer. So my opinion is not a learned one. But, hope it helps.

For every action there is a reaction. If you can put up with digging more trash and hearing more noise in your headphones then you have a great tool to use when needed. Not everyone enjoys the trade off. But I personally believe the more ways you have to hunt the better.

With a good/proper learning-curve.......... a trained ear with the all-metal mode......... can really distinguish good targets from bad targets .... with a fairly good success ratio .......... and to greater depths in bad ground.

I think largely the idea of going deeper in all metal is a thing of the past. Up until about the late 80's/early 90's or so machines often were indeed deeper in all metal due to their primative discrimination circuits. Every machine I've owned since then though *appears* to be no deeper in all metal than it is in discriminate. Some Sovereign guys say it's deeper in all metal or pin point, while others say it's not. I haven't made up my mind on that yet, as I really don't have too many situations where I'd want to hunt in all metal as I'm very impressed with it's depth anyway. Some Excal guys say it's deeper in PP mode while there are some who say it's not too. My theory is that it may have more to do with your soil/sand. It might not be it's deeper in PP but in fact it's able to "see" stuff at depth that discriminate might otherwise choke out due to the iron (or perhaps some other minerals) in the soil/sand. If that's the case then discriminate will null it out (in the case of the BBS machines with built in iron rejection), where as in all metal or PP at depth it's not being overwhelmed by the microscopic iron in the soil/sand and ignoring the target. That's my theory anyway...

Even if I do eventually fine (when I play with it enough) that PP or all metal mode on my GT is deeper than discriminate, I can't for the life of me think of where I'd want to use it. Virtually all my old coin sites have iron, and same deal with my beaches. If I were to hunt in PP or all metal I wouldn't move ten feet in hours at these sites probably.

Some say all metal will "unmask" targets. Not exactly true. It's not going to see anything under something else that discriminate can't see. Same nature of what governs detection fields so that ain't changing. But if you mean that you'll now hear the iron or something else that you might be discriminating out in discriminate mode...Then yes, there in would be the advantage. But then again it's back to how much do you want to dig? 99.9% of all hunts won't dig most non-ferrous "trash" signals, so there is tons of coins out there still being masked by that stuff. Why bother with digging out the iron at most sites, and besides there usually is a lot more iron than non-ferrous trash around.

Now, if the site has some really good coins coming out of it and you want to make it a project then by all means good idea to dig out the iron. I'm just saying there are tons of coins out there being masked by non-ferrous "trash" to be had by simply ignoring the iron and digging everything else above that in the hopes of some good coins to be found under it. Besides, a lot of that non-ferrous "trash" can turn out to be other great finds that the iron won't, such as gold rings, old tokens, coins that read lower on the scale, relics, even silver coins that for some odd reason (being on edge, minerals, being worn, being masked, depth) read lower on the scale.

There may not be significant depth difference between AM and Disc because most machines are processing the signal to give multi tones or TID these days. But..... if you use disc it affects other targets. If you disc say a digital reading of 90 on a whites it can cut off targets 5 or 10 digital readings above or below that. I think thats pretty common. Thats something you need to test on your machine. Thou it might have little affect on depth i find it to my advantage to hear what the coil is passing over. I dont find iron sounds distracting no more than constant high tones depending on my target.

Dew

No, I don't either. On my machines I always would hunt in disc but turn discrimination all the way down as I like to hear the iron to map out a site in my mind. It was hard to get used to iron nulling out on the Sovereign but now I kind of "unhear" the iron to map the site out. I note the nulls and where they are and can "hear" the iron that way in a sense. I'd still prefer to be able to drop discrimination on my GT low enough to hear the iron though. Can't do that without hunting in all metal or PP mode. On the other hand, I'm pulling more non-ferrous stuff like coins out of iron with this machine than any other I ever owned. Has to be something unique going on with that Iron mask on the Sovereign IMO that isn't just simple built in iron rejection.

AM also allows me in the fields to locate possible out buildings and zones for detecting. I know the 3030 now has some individual target tone muniplation wonder if they will ever make it where we adjust the volume of various target ranges. The SE gain allows modulation.... but not of single targets. Id love to be able to increase or reduce the volume of specific targets when using AM especially since tones are the most reliable.