Question for Tom and anyone else who hS an opinion on this subject...

Tom,
I am setting here watching your beach and swimming whole video again. I have the utmost respect for you and everything that I have learned from you and this detector site, especially from you and Keith Southern on detectors and their strengths and weaknesses. I even bought the Gold Bug II just to find micro jewelry at the beach some time ago. Great machine for it's specific use on small gold and the beach in volleyball courts.
My thoughts are on the CZ6a. I have owned and found more relics in the fields and woods of my area of N.C. And Va. and the area beaches of the surrounding area in the last 23 years. Since it was produced, the CZ3d and F75 have been produced. How are they an improvement? I understand that they have faster processors, but they are hyper reactive and have EMI problems that the CZ6a never had. The CZ7 was a step back because of the speaker added in my opinion because it was no longer splash proof. I have always loved the multitone and analog meter on the CZ6a because it stayed on the indicator until the next signal. Easy to interpret. The tones remain the same. Which I truly love. Very pleasing to the ear.
Now my question again is, has the iron unmasking improved on the later models so much as to be the great improvement in these machines. Depth has not greatly improved that I can see. EMI is worse. Machines are made of cheaper materials( as much plastic as possible). And truthfully I preferred the analog meter. Just me I guess... Although there is so much more information displayed on the modern machines. It does not translate to more finds than with the older machines in my opinion ( just my opinion again). Although I do not and have not owned the CZ3d or F75, every one that I know has not liked the hyper activity of them and sold them.
I am not trying to put you on the spot with these questions, but rather would like to know your thoughts on this. Maybe I am way off base with my thoughts and opinions, but I feel that the bells and whistles of the bigger American detector companies have become more important than making a superior machine. The small foreign countries have started thinking outside the box and found new ways to improve on old designs. Your thoughts would be appreciated on this matter if you have the time. I understand that you design the platforms for Fisher but are at their mercy as to what they produce and to the quality of components used in any production run machine. Frustrating as that can be....Stuart

CZ6A may be the best of the bunch in all of the CZ models produced and I have used all of them some twice. However I do feel the CZ3D excels in real old areas with a sort of dig more to find more and feel it handles iron a bit better....

stuart,
i agree with you!! the advancements here have been speed and iron separation capabilities and not so much in the way of depth. i owned one of the first f75s and it was very hard for me to pick out the good signals from all the squeaks,clicks,chirps etc: loved the ergonomics and a few of its features. boost process of the ltd is very nice!
i do not get excited by any of the new machines especially if they are not waterproof, all detectors should be waterproof......ALL DETECTORS SHOULD BE WATERPROOF!!!!!! i will pay the extra cost!!!!!!

the new machine(ctx3030) from minelab is nice but bulky,heavy, and i hear its a real drag to use in the water. control box is not hip mountable.

the new machine from garrett(atx pulse induction) is getting great reviews and i would have bought one but once again its bulky, heavy, not hip mountable.

give me raw power and depth, and that would trump almost any bells and whistles.

i am sticking with my excal, tdi, cz6a and for now trying a sandshark.....all 20 year old designs because as of yet no one has designed a machine that gets me excited for my type of hunting.

I will tell you that the F75 LTD is a machine that takes a while to get used too. Coming from the relative calm of a CZ where you can doze and daydream till you get that great sound the F75 sounds like a cat fight. Constant noise, chirps, buzzes, and whistles. The sound you want is easy to pick out IF you are paying attention and not lulled asleep or tuned out by all of the stray noise. My older Camo LTD also will occasionally find a place that it will not work due to EMI. I found I had to carry the CZ with me if traveling away from home to hunt just in case I hit that place the F75 hated. The F75 is quicker than a CZ and handles iron better. I love my CZ for those old hunted out places where I can hunt slow and amaze and astound the other hunters with deep silver. The F75 is pretty easy to swing and set up. It will find great things at low sensitivity settings. It doesn't have to be cranked to the max to work. It also has a very good VDI consistency. Really deep signals may be dug more by sound but I like a VDI that lets me know what I am going to be digging. The boost process is a joy in tall grass or uneven ground. It works great. I hunt in it 90 percent of the time. I think we are all wanting a new Fisher with some CZ roots that is easier to swing and works just as well. We are looking for a new legend from Fisher.

Don
HH

People on this forum know my opinion on the CZ6a....best overall detector ever made. The 2 I have continue to run like the day I bought them 20+ years ago. And they have been through all kinds of hunting conditions.

I think it comes down to the basic premise of what type of hunting a person does, where and what soil conditions. Also, the big detector manufactures will always make lower level units with cheaper components for people who want to start out in the hobby and don't have a lot of money to spend. I do think that some of us die hards who buy lots of detectors over the years and sell them on the classifieds for prices a lot lower than new, help the newer folk out in getting above average/top of the line units for 1/2 the price of new. Too bad not all of the detector manufacturers transfer warranties.

I have an F75 se and I do agree the unit is a sparky one and needs to be set up/tuned for the conditions and is not as easy to run as a CZ. But it does have an advantage in certain areas and applications such as nail ridden sites or sites with a lot of small iron or trash. Putting the small 5 inch coil on it and setting it up correctly, the F75 can and will find targets in between iron and trash that the CZ may not or would not ID correctly. Ergonomically out of the box, the F75 is much easier to swing.

If a newer person getting into the hobby was considering purchasing a new unit, and had the opportunity to swing both a new CZ3d and F75 and use it's features, they may gravitate to the F75, especially if they are younger. Some of the older die hards like myself love the analog units and knobs for adjusting.

At this point I have 14 detectors, which include a V3i, CTX3030, F75se, MXT Pro, Deus, several PI units,etc. ( and previously owned E-Trac, Troy X5, Vista Gold and dozens more). Three of the 14 are CZ's. The 3 CZ's will never leave the stable. But that is due to the hunting I do and the conditions I hunt in and that is the bottom line for all hunters and the machines they use. There really isn't a right or wrong answer as to what machine is best because there are too many variables to consider, the biggest variable being the person using the machine.

Therover61 , "People on this forum know my opinion on the CZ6a....best overall detector ever made"

I agree 100%

Just find a good one and hit the soil......

Tom in SC

Thanks for the great replies so far guys. Glad to see that I am not the only one who still owns and uses an old CZ6a. Incredible build quality. I have had mine for 23 years and used it in the rain and mud and never a single problem. Why can't they just make a waterproof CZ6a with one of today's lightning fast processors and a DD coil for iron separation. I would gladly pay for quality in material and craftsmanship like the older machines were made.

Yes its true depth has not improved much over the past couple of decades...

But better coil designs have come along that allow for more punch in bad dirt...and better I.D.s in bad dirt...


the faster processors are also able to get more targets out of trash when also coupled with the newer tighter Coil design's...

Yes the Hyper platfrom does have some EMI problems....but they have combated that in the last 18 or so months ...pick up a newer Tek or Fisher and I think you will see less NOISE...yet still not quite...

((((the newest F75 replacement being tested right now whatever it will be called I hear is EMI free so good news there!! or is it???))))

Ive alway's have found a machine that has a certain amount of top end overload gain is the one I want versus a machine that runs 100 gain and is still quite..

I like working in the noise but not working in the EMI noise...

It may not seem like alot has happened in the depth or or even in the amount of finds at the end of the day ...yet if you dont rely on I.D. acuracy at depth and think outside the box for unit setup the newer units can do thing's the older units can not do especially a CZ. Vs a F75...the f75 can alert you to a deeper dig me target in disc mode though it cant be sure its a dime or what it can be sure its not iron most of the time...

Now a CZ 6 vs a CZ 3d if you dig it all but the iron tone you will see no advanatge..one's not deeper than the other...All the extra tone does is make people who rely on tones dig more iffy's....but if you dig the non iron tone's all the time anyways your good to go...an extra tone is just an extra tone...

I dig it all anyways so 2 tone is all I would need even on a CZ...


its really not fair to compare a CZ to a F75 or t2 as they are completely different..if you hunt by solid I.D. tone in isolated targets then the CZ is fine..but if you hunt in trash/iron or otherwise the F75 is way better at unlocking the site....


the more I study other people's post on the net the more I understand why people want I.D. at depth accuracy IF they just want to dig coins and leave the rest....

I dug a Toe tap the other day at a measured 13 inches....it read 90...I dug it up carfully and removed it and there was piece of history I was holding in my hand from a soldier on the march 150 years ago..Out of the ground on the surface it read 70 ....but what if I had dug down that deep and it wasnt a coin like it was reading...it was tight and it was deep in an old site.. should of been a coin!!! ....I would of been discouraged if I was a coin hunter and threw the toe tap away as junk...But Im a relic hunter and I like the toe tap as good or better than a coin...So im not dissapointed...now ask this .. would a CZ hit a 13 inch toe tap??? If the Teknetics was setup like a CZ with I.D. accuracy to depth with the target peak sampling it does then the tek would not hit the Toe tap either...but the Tek does not do that in the modulated two tone mode...So right there is a depth advanatge but not a I.D. at depth advantage..

The CZ has an I.D. depth advantage to this day in certain dirt's...but its not the deepest non ferrous mahine made..the CZ wants to be sure of its self when it reports...thats why the audio and I.D are tied together..Straight from a old school George Payne type circuit but amped up power wise...

Adding an extra tone to the CZ does nothing for depth unless you simply go by I.D. as your guide for digging then it will net you a few more keepers in older area's..but if your in older areas and dig all tones but iron anyway theres not a real advanatge...

yes it also seems the newer machines are not built as rigid as the older machines...bit also remember the newer machines have alot less or even no internal variable tuning resistors and caps etc....so they are basically just programmed circuits and they can take more temp changes and knock arounds that the older machines...and lightness comes at a price of less sturdy feel...but avenues are being made such as Minelab using carbon fiber...its expensive right now but one day a whole machine could be formed from it or maybe another type material that is lighter than metal yet stronger...

I see us in a transition phase right now.....material wise and performance wise...a 21st century machine can do so much more than a 20th century machine if used Knowingly..

You talk of the foriegn machines making inroads.. and yes they are...yet they seem to be using older tech and adapting it to newer Ideas...Why are they deep???they mostly only have 2 tones ... they just need to know if its iron or not in europe...the DEUS gives I.D. but its basically useless.. not sure they know how to build an accurate I.D.??but why is it needed??they did that for the U.S. market...

Im not sure the Foreign machines are on the same playing field in ground bal methods used here in the states..its effective yet feels rudimentary at times..


right now if you want depth past your CZ learn the nuances of a T2 or F75 or Omega or GMP or alot of others that have 2 tone modulated audio but dont worry about Visual I.D accuracy on the deepies...

Ever wonder why an explorer is a deep Silver killer...its not that the machine goes alot deeper or I.D.s better ...actuallyy its the wayb the audio works if you can get that slight warble high ring in area wiht known silver you can dig deep silver...Get in some bad ground though and try and pick that sound pout fo some ringing hotrocks...they sound about the same...and the I.d. screen shopws thme about the same...but your hearing it all and its up to you to decide to dig it even though ti may not be reading coin it sounds like a coin to the trained ear..

I believ an explorer and a CZ will probably I.D. a coin to about the same depth and most people will say they are dead even for that....but an explorer will go deeper on a piece of silver than the CZ if you know what to listen for and dont watch the I.D. and learn the nuance.. its not alot deeper but is deeper..

if you want stable save time not digging trash I.D. stay with the CZ unless you hunt thick trash..

If you want to dig deeper copins theres other tools availbale and the F75 T2 is one of them....but it may require more exploratory diging to get deeper..and can get deeper .....


Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 10:06PM by Keith Southern.

"((((the newest F75 replacement being tested right now whatever it will be called I hear is EMI free so good news there!! or is it???)))) "

that would be amazing if it is immune to emi and not just masking it/compensating for it by lowering the sensitivity!!!!!!

chuck.

I used the CZ5 for 12 or 13 years then one day I was reading Toms article on iron masking. That summer I decided to try another machine. I bought the F75, after putting a few hours on it I took it to a small park. This park was a deep mine back in the late 1890's into the 1920's. Turned into a park in the the 1930's. My grandad and uncle and I pounded this site for years with Tesoros,whites and Fishers. I thought I had it cleaned out with the CZ5. Took the F75 to this site back in 2008. Not expecting to find much. I came home with a half dozen whacks 4 or 5 mercs . The F75 with the new dd coil and fast processor reopened a old site. I searched this site several more time with the F75 with stock coil and 5" coil and found a lot of silver and old nickels being mask by the iron.i was a believer in the Mask. The F75 did this in many more sites. So technology as improved in some areas. (DD coils fast processorsI ect.). I still have my beloved CZ5.
This old park is currently being ripped up to put some kind of County building on it. They scraped off the top layer of dirt. I hunted a couple times and pulled some buffalo nickels out before they tore the rest out.
I took some pics if I remember to post sometime. The iron spikes and long nails were all visible while you walked around the site. It is amazing that we ever found anything at this site. The amount of iron in the ground was unreal.
I love the CZ and I used to be just a coinhunter but now I love to find relics and old coins and you have to hunt the old sites to finds these things(ghost towns,cellar holes ect). I want a fast machine with a dd coil.
HH
Corey

Thanks for the reply's from Keith, Chuck, and Doc. I am first and formost a relic hunter and then a beach hunter. We will leave beach hunting for another thread. As I said before, I wish or hope for a stable machine like the CZ6a with a cast processor with a DD coil. I hope it will happen with the new detector that Fisher is testing. With Carl Morland there now and all of their new talent I will buy one in a minute if they come through with a ground breaking machine that is not EMI crazy. For now my relic machines of choice are the Deeptech Vist Gold and RG1000 V2. Simple two tone machines from another country. I hope the American companies show me something that works great without all the noise that irritates me from EMI. Two tones or four really does not matter to me. Just a machine that is fast and stable and can ID iron accurately. Now if I was park or dry sand hunting then the TID would be more important to me. Thanks for the Incites Keith, I was hoping you would weigh in on this one because you know today's machines as good as anyone. Again, these are just my opinions and although the CZ6a is not DD coil and ultra fast in iron. Masking is bad. It is still one of the great machines for depth and user friendliness. Easy on the ears with a great set of tones that anyone can hear and differentiate. The Gold is awesome with the iron tone break and iron volume. Why can the American companies not accomplish this? I can live without any visual id, but the old analog gauge worked fine on the CZ's.

Unfolded nicely!