I in ground target compared Deus vs Racer

I had to move some hay today for a friend. So late this evening I played around with Deus 9" coil. I was running 12 khz reactivity 1 silencer -1, sens 93, manual GB dead on. Hit a target that read 88 on the meter with a nice concise smooth high tone. Turning 90 degrees and sweeping target still produced good clear sounding tone meter was still at 88. I said what the heck, went and got the Racer with stock coil attached. Swept the target in 3 tone gain 90. Tone was awful, definitely junk sounding to me, meter would read 84 but would drop off to say 54 when the coil approached the edges of target. Well I got the shovel and dug. Target was 6" deep. When I saw it I thought maybe the target was a mix of ferrous/nonferrous. Nope, checked with a magnet, all nonferrous.

I report you decide.

That there is one of those famous Deus targets that breaks your heart. You are darn near convinced it is a coin because of the solid numbers. It tuns out the Deus loves anything round.. As far as the Racer I don't have a clue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2015 09:25AM by goodmore.

This is where the Racer seems to shine - it seems it's audio is really good at indicating both ferrous and non ferrous targets at same time. As we have all experienced some ferrous targets lie to us about their true nature. Sound great but have iron. I also like how my MXT Pro seems to see through these lies when using prospect mode. On several occasions my MXT in relic has given me a good signal in on direction and less good in another. Always makes me think a masked good target. In some cases it has been a good target mixed with iron. In other cases it is a chunk of iron trying to pretend being something good. On MXT switching to prospecting mode I have checked those targets. In every case so far if it is only iron the prospect mode reports high probability of iron. On mixed targets the probability is lower or more jumpy going between high and low probability. On the Racer no need to change modes the Audio tells you for sure you have some iron down there. I do not think in either case at least right now I would walk away from a mixed audio on Racer. I am still tuning my ear to it sounds. But others seem to have gotten pretty good at sniffing out junk vs treasure.

On a side note I wonder how much target shape has to do with those iron targets that read like non ferrous. I know in coil and transformer design the shape of the core has a huge impact on the performance characteristics of the transformer. I know large iron will lie - but smaller pieces do as well. Still learning so still dig it all.

Bryanna - Nebraska

Current - New to me but not new MXT Pro and T2 SE2 - Previous Minelab Sovereign GT, Minelab Safari, Whites DFX, Whites Eagle Spectrum
Smile its a good for you!

"Did you remove the washer and check both items separately?"

I will keep this find in it's originally found condition for some further tests, even with some other detectors. It is according to my small magnet totally nonferrous. The Racer and CoRe are unique animals with their audio; especially when using 3 tone. I have a theory and I believe it can be somewhat proved.

I was talking to Jack a few weeks ago and we were chatting about both the CoRe and Racer with small coils.

Here is an experiment that needs to be done and I think it could shed light on maybe how the CoRe and Racer are engineered to do what they do both with their TID and audio.

I notice when sweeping a junk target with either machine (discounting a target co-located with iron) the TID will peak many times say at 82-84, but as the coil is moved off the target you'll see a sudden drop say 20 plus points on the TID reading. I wonder if a person for example took a US quarter and ground it on the edges, to make the target (quarter) less uniform across the face thickness wise and swept with a Racer with small coil, "What would be seen, both tonally and TID wise"? I would expect maybe the TID overall to be slightly less (less mass-due to metal removed from grinding process), but would we see this TID drop as the coil passes the edge of the ground/altered quarter???
If the answer to this question is yes, I think it definitely gives us something to hang our hat on in deciphering what's going on inside a CoRe and Racer as far as what both detectors are indeed sensing/picking up and relaying to us the User. I mean this TID drop when the coil approaches the edges of a "junk" target, is it about the actual alloy/metal make up or is it about a target's uniformity metal shape at the edges????? We know coins are pretty uniform at the edges.

I also think a person could take a US quarter and grind it into more of a square shape and see what both the audio and TID do? This may shed light on does the shape have any real impact. And putting both experiments data together, this may truly tell us some thing we can use in the field as we make Dig/No Dig decisions.

Now granted depth, ground minerals, co-located target offers many variable at times when we are detecting, so even if these 2 experiments do in fact reveal anything, one still has to wonder would they be walking by good targets if they indeed passed a target with say poorer audio or TID that seems to drop as the coil hits the edges of a target.

I will try to do some of these experiments and report back what I see. Maybe some other CoRe and Racer users will too.

Cheers

Im the opposite of Bryanna...Deus called it right. That could of been a great relic. Theres more than coins in the ground.

Agreed w/Ray. That could have been an amazing artifact, and why I relic hunt in 2 tone. D3 is great for digging coins, but that nuanced audio CAN make you walk on targets that blend in the 78-82 range. At the end of the day we all have different ears and preferances, but I don't fault the deus one bit, its a solid brass (or something) target, gotta dig those.

It looks like a pure copper rivet to me, like the type that hold together horse bridles. We find them often here in the U.K, and they do tend to give a high-tone, due to being copper.

I agree with Pimento, that copper rivet should be reported as a good target on a metal detector, through the years I've probably dug dozens of them. I find them at the older 1800's sites here in Kansas, it is a good age indicator for a site. These rivets are considered trash by some but I have seen these displayed in some civil war relic collections through the years along with harmonica and accordion reeds, just good period relics that look fine with buttons plates and bullets.

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im the opposite of Bryanna...Deus called it right.
> That could of been a great relic. Theres more than
> coins in the ground.


I agree, being more of a relic hunter than a coin hunter, I prefer to dig most non ferrous targets. I can get coins at the bank. Lol

When digging relics in iron you have to dig that stuff, that could have been a hammer from a gun or old rusty key...The racer gives off more of a iron tone mixed with a good tone on good targets sometimes..And if you were hunting a civil war site and you passed on that because the racer gave you a bad tone you could have missed out on a lot of good targets

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Just so no one misunderstands why I posted this. Both detectors alerted as a non ferrous target. But Racer's tone and TID told me not coin (this based on my experience), Deus reported more in the dime range. With tone I would dig every single time. Now I never told anyone to not dig the target in question based on what I reported.

But let's say you were in a target rich environment with little time (certainly not enough time to dig all nonferrous reported), the Racer in this example (in ground undug target) gave me information it seems Deus didn't/could not.

I like the Deus, I only have 2 full units and an extra coil to boot. So this post is certainly not a Deus bashing post. I report what I see, you decide. I feel some folks may be interested in Racer/CoRe in the future or may be experiencing a slower learning curve than they hoped for.

I will be posting other test with data comparing Deus and Racer. I hope this information helps folks. I know it certainly helps me. Remember I'm a rookie my most standards from an experience standpoint. But I feel my education/training and experience I received working on electronic equipment, definitely gives me a leg up so to speak.

I look forward to any and all comparisons that folks can share.

tnsharpshooter , thanks for the detailed description. It helps me understand differences between detectors much more than "xy is deeper"

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just so no one misunderstands why I posted this.
> Both detectors alerted as a non ferrous target.
> But Racer's tone and TID told me not coin (this
> based on my experience), Deus reported more in the
> dime range. With tone I would dig every single
> time. Now I never told anyone to not dig the
> target in question based on what I reported.
>
> But let's say you were in a target rich
> environment with little time (certainly not enough
> time to dig all nonferrous reported), the Racer in
> this example (in ground undug target) gave me
> information it seems Deus didn't/could not.
>
> I like the Deus, I only have 2 full units and an
> extra coil to boot. So this post is certainly not
> a Deus bashing post. I report what I see, you
> decide. I feel some folks may be interested in
> Racer/CoRe in the future or may be experiencing a
> slower learning curve than they hoped for.
>
> I will be posting other test with data comparing
> Deus and Racer. I hope this information helps
> folks. I know it certainly helps me. Remember
> I'm a rookie my most standards from an experience
> standpoint. But I feel my education/training and
> experience I received working on electronic
> equipment, definitely gives me a leg up so to
> speak.
>
> I look forward to any and all comparisons that
> folks can share.


Thank you for posting this TNSS

Yea I was assuming coin hunting - but yes nonferrous and Ferrous alike can be real treasures and not be a coin.

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im the opposite of Bryanna...Deus called it right.
> That could of been a great relic. Theres more than
> coins in the ground.

Bryanna - Nebraska

Current - New to me but not new MXT Pro and T2 SE2 - Previous Minelab Sovereign GT, Minelab Safari, Whites DFX, Whites Eagle Spectrum
Smile its a good for you!

Thats a copper rivet off of leather ..saddle or harness...

they read high on most machines...usually mid to upper 80's..

Not sure why the racer was calling it different.. did you check the hole after retrieval..sounds like there was another target with it..Maybe even a nail...

What's the Racer read the target now that it's out of the dirt..is it Consistant...

What you experience on the Racer is EDGE PASS I.D. drop ..Its part of the Continous AUDIO GATE OPEN report ..works well with a bottle cap as a PLUS if you leave the iron audio on. ...

Run a Nautilus for a awhile and youll know why detectors/Racer does what it does in terms of conductance I.D. error..

It wont be obvious at first..but thats why I think everyone ought to learn how to hunt with a Nautilus...it teaches you so much about target's and why they do what they do report wise..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

See this link for additional info. Doesn't seem to be iron related.

[www.dankowskidetectors.com]

It is normal for ID to go weird on you when not completely centered over a target.

That is why I like my detectors to have a fast switching All Metal/Pinpoint VCO and Disc mode.

Certain machines are just better coin hunters than others. They give a more distinct audio signal to a round disc.
Other machines are better relic hunters and grab non-ferrous.

Personally I think this preference in a machine is a combination of coil design and the software interpreting the signal.

Deus isn't great at calling a coin, coil is way too sharp.
It is however a relic hunters dream and a bottlecap digging nightmare :-)

Can't comment on the Racer, don't own one.

HH
Johnb

Hi Tn,

I have a few theories about the target but you didn't answer my original Q. did you remove the washer and check it with your magnet AWAY from the bolt?
I've a feeling that the washer is a 'mix' of ferrous and washed with an exterior coating of copper for "protection" against the elements? But this just a theory?
Why not cut the bolt and remove the washer and then cut it as well? That would put the matter to bed. Why not, the bolt doesn't have any 'value' test item excepted.

Anyway, another theory is: both machines saw it as a good target: Duice did and so did Racer which then "saw" the 3rd 'eddy current' from the washer and produced the lower target ID

Eddy Current 1 - the bolt in it's entirity + washer
Eddy Current 2 - the bolt's length
Eddy Current 3 - the washer

"Racer" has a most unusual method of operation [ in interpreting ] metals and can after multiple passes [ tell the truth ]
It's just how it goes about it's business and "is producing" for many owners...it's good at it...BUT, it takes multiple interpretations i.e sweeps or passes across and back over targets.
How it does this I can't explain but it could be more fluke than intended?

Des D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2015 12:25PM by Des D.

Go 3 post up, follow the link. Your questions are answered and then some. Something very peculiar or special going on with Racer.

I probably shouldn't have started a new thread, but being the knuckle head I am, I did. Lesson learned!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2015 01:12PM by tnsharpshooter.

Thank you again for your input and starting this threads TNSS. Truly interesting and eye opener for sure. I trust your knowledge in comparisons and truly enjoy our conversations back and forth over the past few months.

I don't know the Deus machine at all. And I'll be the first to admit that my Nokta CoRe isn't the best, end all detector on the market. But for the price I paid for the unit x it's seeming durability, and what I have found in the ground, WELL to me, it's a definite keeper.. at least for now and this season of hunting.

I was very impressed with your research of an "in the ground"signal, of the Deus vs the RACER on that great copper find. The Deus naked it all ways vs the RACER and the mixed iron audio.

I don't have a RACER in my arsenal, so I can't compare the 2. But one thing that I will point out is scbabbard tip came up as an "iffy signal", bit I still dug it anyway add it varied between a good dig me signal x yet you could hear iron as well...hence the uncertainty in digging it.

Now I will say this...each time I removed a small and even larger iron pieces and nails, the TID and dig me signals became stronger and better and better, Tim I pulled this beauty out of the ground.



Now I might be getting a v3i next to ads to my arsenal. Mike Hillis and even Daniel TN are having great luck with relic hunting with their v3i machines. And I would love to learn their settings and frequencies to find mini balls and 3 ringers at the depths that they find relics.

Any help you can direct me in would be great when you can.

Thanks again TNSS,
Bubba

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had to move some hay today for a friend. So
> late this evening I played around with Deus 9"
> coil. I was running 12 khz reactivity 1 silencer
> -1, sens 93, manual GB dead on. Hit a target that
> read 88 on the meter with a nice concise smooth
> high tone. Turning 90 degrees and sweeping target
> still produced good clear sounding tone meter was
> still at 88. I said what the heck, went and got
> the Racer with stock coil attached. Swept the
> target in 3 tone gain 90. Tone was awful,
> definitely junk sounding to me, meter would read
> 84 but would drop off to say 54 when the coil
> approached the edges of target. Well I got the
> shovel and dug. Target was 6" deep. When I saw
> it I thought maybe the target was a mix of
> ferrous/nonferrous. Nope, checked with a magnet,
> all nonferrous.
>
> I report you decide.
>
> [i76.photobucket.com]
> DSC00113_zpsof7dplpy.jpg

I don't have a Deus or the Racer, but I'm wondering which has better reactivity, that is target separation ability? If you had a nail next to a coin, which one could ID the coin closest to the nail?


I'm thinking that target you found definitely has high permeability (iron) and is strongly Reactive (in the +X sense) and yet has plenty of circular areas to generate long eddies and waste power on electrons, yielding a Resistive (in the R sense) component too.

So, the iron gives it a strong positive phase angle - which apparently the Racer caught and processed correctly when off-center. It is possible that with the coil off-center the field lines strike the target such that the majority effect was +X and less R, but over the target the R was dominant (and it gave a non-ferrous response).

My impression from reading so much about the Deus' fast reset ability I would have thought it would have likewise hit High then Med/Low as the coil passed. Perhaps the Deus is fast but the Racer has faster target separating ability (able to 'see' what appears as non-ferrous and then immediately respond to what appears as ferrous).

A nail test would be interesting (I suppose it's been done but I'm unaware).