Improperly cleaned coins vs properly cleaned coins ?

I was recently watching a show where a person was trying to buy a fairly rare gold coin at a coin show. Two coins were available one was not cleaned, they wanted $70,000 for it. The other was listed as Improperly cleaned for $48,000. What I would like to know if there are PROPERLY cleaned coins, in the coin collecting world. What do they use to clean a properly cleaned coin? Mark

I am far from an expert on the subject but have learned a little. Conserving coins is kind of a hobby for me.
I enjoy going through my coins when I get home and trying to get them looking there best without doing much damage.
Cleaned coins in the collecting community usually means it has some form of chemical used on it or it has been rubbed with something
abrasive which doesn't take much.

Ultimately you want to leave the coin alone if you can. Especially if it's a key date valuable coin.

In our hobby something usually needs to be done though.
My next move is running it under water, or soaking for a bit and then pat dry.
Silver is VERY soft and any kind of rubbing even with a cloth can leave micro scratches.
My coin dealer taught me to ROLL a Q-tip over the coin. Never rub. I will do this under running water and it will lift dirt off the coin..
Rose thorns are also used to pick crud out of the details.
Pure acetone can also be used on silver without damage or dropping value but it must be pure. NO fingernail polish.

Copper is a lot easier to clean without scratching. I use the steps above EXCEPT for the Acetone, but will use a big pink eraser on them. Works real well without scratching.
On pennies with caked on like concrete dirt I will soak for a short time in hot peroxide. Works real well but will darken the coin.

Again. If you have a valuable coin don't touch it until you get some professional advise.
You can screw up a very valuable coin real easy.
Bryan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2016 11:38PM by Cabin Fever.

swmomark Wrote:
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> I was recently watching a show where a person was
> trying to buy a fairly rare gold coin at a coin
> show. Two coins were available one was not
> cleaned, they wanted $70,000 for it. The other was
> listed as Improperly cleaned for $48,000. What I
> would like to know if there are PROPERLY cleaned
> coins, in the coin collecting world. What do they
> use to clean a properly cleaned coin? Mark


i dont know anything about cleaning coins,was the show it called pawn stars?

Cabin Fever Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Ultimately you want to leave the coin alone if you
> can. Especially if it's a key date valuable coin.
>
>
> In our hobby something usually needs to be done
> though.


Correct.

There is a mantra amongst numismatsicists of "NEVER clean a coin. Or it will de-value it".

This is not an accurate catch-all statement. It's a statement no doubt borne out of horror stories of someone, way-back-when, who went to clean his grandmother's gold coins with Ajax or something.

But in our hobby, we find scores of stuff that ,.... if left alone with no effort, will likewise get you "laughed out of the coin store". So we face the dilemma of nothing lost in trying. And, if done right (leaving no trace of your effort, no un-natural coloring, and no micro "whizzed" appearance) , then you can actually bring the value of the coin up.

Decades ago, the grading agencies, if they were grading something that they could tell had been cleaned, it got sent back with the notation "cleaned". However, starting about 15 or 20 yrs. ago, the grading agencies started clarifying that notation further with either "cleaned" or "Improperly cleaned". The later denotation certainly seems to imply that there's a "proper" way and an "in-proper" way.

As to the best way: There's a million threads on a million forums, with all different ideas, methods , etc.. Some are harsh (for times when you want to hurry up and just get it showy for your own displays), to more tame time-consuming painful methods when you've got something key date rare. Depends on the type metal coin (silver ? copper ? Nickel? Gold ?). And depends on how much the ground kissed the coin . Do key word searched on the subject on any of the major forums, and you'll see endless threads on the various methods and tricks.

Practice first on common mercs (for silver), common IH's (for copper), and common buffalos (for 5c's). Before you progress to trying on your keydate stuff.

An improperly cleaned coin will show a series of hairline scratches where the coin was rubbed with a cloth or some kind of abrasive. These scratches can range from barely perceptible to painfully obvious.

If a coin is dipped into a liquid, such as acetone, to remove foreign matter or into what is know as "dip," e.g. EZest, to remove tarnish then hairline scratches will not be created in the first place. The presence or absence of these hairline scratches after "cleaning" is what determines whether the cleaning was improper or not.

In case there is any confusion about how the terminology is used by collectors and dealers, any coin described as cleaned will mean improper cleaning. Coins that have been dipped or otherwise show no hairlines will not be described as cleaned, even by the person who dipped them.

Bayard Wrote:
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> An improperly cleaned coin will show a series of
> hairline scratches where the coin was rubbed with
> a cloth or some kind of abrasive. These scratches
> can range from barely perceptible to painfully
> obvious.
>
> If a coin is dipped into a liquid, such as
> acetone, to remove foreign matter or into what is
> know as "dip," e.g. EZest, to remove tarnish then
> hairline scratches will not be created in the
> first place. The presence or absence of these
> hairline scratches after "cleaning" is what
> determines whether the cleaning was improper or
> not.
>
> In case there is any confusion about how the
> terminology is used by collectors and dealers, any
> coin described as cleaned will mean improper
> cleaning. Coins that have been dipped or
> otherwise show no hairlines will not be described
> as cleaned, even by the person who dipped them.

Not necessarily true.

I have spent nearly 50 years 'conserving' rare coins. Some call it 'doctoring' and it generally has a very bad connotation within the numismatic market. The purpose is to make a coin look better than it does typically in an attempt to reverse the effects of an improper cleaning. A competent 'doctor' can make a lot of money.

I've never conserved a dug coin that looked 'undug' when finished.

I purchased a poorly cleaned 1912-s liberty nickel for $700 a few years ago and generally did a good job bringing back an original patina, yet the obverse looked a little different than the reverse when I was finished with it. The brightness was gone and there was absolutely no hairlines anywhere. I had confidence that the coin would certify (slab) in a non-problem holder but PCGS returned it "Genuine." I cracked it out of the slab and sent it to ANACS; it came back "Cleaned." I cracked it out again and auctioned it on eBay as a raw coin for $900. The fella has tried to sell it a couple times since, so far without success (I recognize a small tarnish area near 2pm on the reverse as being a diagnostic that's it's my coin).

It's up for sale again:

[www.ebay.com]

History: [www.ebay.com]

-----

I recently worked on this coin that now sits in a PCGS MS64 slab. Price guide books value the coin at $75. It was splotchy white before I started and quite ugly.




I turned down an even-up trade on this coin last October for a PCGS certified AU58 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2016 03:13PM by go-rebels.

"Dipping" coins can burn them in a heartbeat = I wouldn't suggest doing that and especially ANY coin in MS60 and above unless you want to burn the "luster" off and destroy the value

I've seen dummies take a coin worth $1000s and "dip" them only to strip the luster away and turn it into a couple $100 coin in a matter of seconds = dumbazz'es!

go-rebels Wrote:
> Not necessarily true.
>
Nothing you wrote contradicts what I posted. You are artificially toning coins. This is universally frowned upon and is considered unethical. The artificial toning might make hairlines more difficult to see; but, the hairlines will still be present under the toning.

One thing I'd like to add to my original post, a copper coin may show evidence of chemical cleaning by changing to a pinkish color. Even if no hairlines are present, this color change will mark the coin as being improperly cleaned.

I understand the value of coins because of the volume minted. I understand the higher value of a coin when it's closer to perfection. What doesn't sit right with me is the high percentage difference from a un-properly cleaned coin or a coin with micro scratches compared to a near perfect one. Come on now, an ugly key date or just an old coin should still retain it's worth close to the price of a perfect one.....the way I see it.

I wouldn't swap my middle-aged wife for a younger firmer less wrinkled girl....the older one has more character, wisdom and experience... therefore worth more.

Quote
Bayard
The artificial toning might make hairlines more difficult to see; but, the hairlines will still be present under the toning.

Again, not always true. Not all cleaned coins show evidence of hairlines. And not all chemically cleaned coins destroy the luster; it depends on the type and intensity of the chemicals, along with whatever other electrical/mechanical method was used to alter the surface.

That silver dollar I show above has not one hairline and the progression of color exactly mimics what happens in nature. Not even PCGS can tell the difference. Unethical? It's as unethical as repainting a car when the coin is slabbed by a reputable third party grader.

What do you think of my work on the nickel?

Quote
Bayard
One thing I'd like to add to my original post, a copper coin may show evidence of chemical cleaning by changing to a pinkish color. Even if no hairlines are present, this color change will mark the coin as being improperly cleaned.

I purchase key date 'pink' coppers all the time. They are very easy to turn back to brown if there is no underlying effects of corrosion. Go to any large coin show and look at the big dealers selling old large cents. Many are professionally recolored, including those in NGC, ANACS and PCGS slabs. Please PM me if you have any key date 'pinkies' you wish to sell.

A good article here for those who wish to venture off into the weeds: [www.coinweek.com]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I dipped a proof 1860's dime last month. It's not an off-the shelf product but something I've developed over decades.

It will slab PF61-63 for its owner through any major grading service. Plenty of hairlines but the eye-appeal is significantly improved.

But I agree with you; a novice will generally devalue any coin he/she attempts to clean.

Quote
ozzie
I understand the value of coins because of the volume minted. I understand the higher value of a coin when it's closer to perfection. What doesn't sit right with me is the high percentage difference from a un-properly cleaned coin or a coin with micro scratches compared to a near perfect one. Come on now, an ugly key date or just an old coin should still retain it's worth close to the price of a perfect one.....the way I see it.

It's purely market driven supply and demand. Hi-end collectors generally want the best, and the best is "all original." The same effect is taking hold today in the classic car market. Common cleaned coins may lose little value if they're valued based on their silver or gold content only. You really can't hurt a circulated/dug 1964 quarter by cleaning it, no matter how harshly.

I buy rare cleaned coins at between 15% and 75% of book value. A 75% coin is either VERY rare or very difficult to tell was ever cleaned. Cleaned, uncirculated coins sell for VF/AU money depending on the looks.

Remember, you can only be all original once.

Here's one I just picked up for about 50% list price that I'm going to bust out of the holder and try to make a few bucks on once I fix it up a bit

Dr. Michiganrelichunter, good luck with that patient.

Thanks for all the info. Mark

go-rebels, thanx for chiming in with your very good information. Good story on the nickel too.

Companies that slab coins now days have COIN SNIFFERS and all kinds of ways to determine coin FRAUD. Its no longer a kids hobby....... its big business as collectables. You cant look in a coin book and guess at prices..... especially on cleaned or dug coins. The REAL collectors even know which graders to avoid..... and most wont even look at a coin thats not slabbed/graded unless its to complete a set. China even fakes the slabs now as well as coins...... so the grades have to constantly change their system. They are really really good at it.

Dew