Feasability of a hybrid pulse/vlf

With VLF tech at it's peak, there is only on direction it can go, down. So, I see from time to time, folks wishing for a pulse/VLF hybrid. I only see two potential benefits from this union, depth and better reactivity. The question I pose is, has current VLF tech matched or surpassed the potential of a hybrid?

Currently, I have dug a 15 inch quarter with the Etrac, found small stud earrings with the CTX, and have seen incredible things so far with the Impact.

How much more depth is needed/feasible?

How much more reactive to small targets is needed as well?

Up until the impact, I would see a need for a hybrid machine, but now having the impact, it seems I have all the bases covered such as depth, reactivity, separation, and even more(who knows what else it will achieve).

So I am asking, make the argument for a hybrid machine..I dare you



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 03:55PM by Beyonder-Pa.

Truth or dare!

The only advantage of PI machines has always been their increased depth in really bad ground over VLF's. The flip side of that is that they never had - and likely never will have reliable discrimination at depth.

Unless you think there are lunker gold nuggets down there somewhere deep or you are hunting winter huts in Culpper VA, PI's haven't done much for most of us.

What we need is the razor selectivity of the latest VLF machines like the ones Keith S. loves - combined with immunity to mineralization and good discrimination. Depth beyond 10" or so in normal circumstances is not a priority.

I agree that a VLF/PI combo is not the answer.

The answer is either an advanced "multifreaker" - something which combines the depth of a CZ or Explorer with the quickness od a T2 or an Impulse. Or a totally new technical approach like the ML GPZ but with discrimination.

I am willing to spot the first forum member who claims it (if I turn out to be wrong) a really good lunch at my favorite Mexican Reataurant in Globe, AZ - that such a machine - if it ever appears - is made either by Minelab or First Texas. Full disclosure - no one should be surprised to figure which of the two I'm rooting for - but fair is fair - and I seriously doubt that anyone other than these two have the financial, scientific and engineering chops to do it.

Your mileage may vary! Lol

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 04:27PM by lytle78.

I want EMI immunity too.

HH
MIke

But Nautilus DMC is deep enough... and this is VLF still... Why?

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The answer is either an advanced "multifreaker" -
> something which combines the depth of a CZ or Expl
> orer with the quickness od a T2 or an Impulse. Or
> a totally new technical approach like the ML GPZ b
> ut with discrimination.
>
> I am willing to spot the first forum member who cl
> aims it (if I turn out to be wrong) a really good
> lunch at my favorite Mexican Reataurant in Globe,
> AZ - that such a machine - if it ever appears - i
> s made either by Minelab or First Texas. Full dis
> closure - no one should be surprised to figure whi
> ch of the two I'm rooting for - but fair is fair -
> and I seriously doubt that anyone other than these
> two have the financial, scientific and engineering
> chops to do it.


Agreed on all fronts

I agree with Rick....I believe that it will be GPZ tech with disc. And it will be Minelab.... as I'm not familiar with that other company "First Texas" he mentioned .

Hey Rick, I'll meet you in Prescott. We can hit Whiskey Row and then do some nugget shooting! HH

Dean

Even if you DID get a hyrbrid (ability to switch back and forth), you'd still have devils-in-the-details. Namely that the moment you elect to be hunting in pulse (like a beach pulse or a nugget-machine-pulse), you can kiss TID (iron disc) goodbye.

So you WON'T get the "best of both worlds" Ie.: you're not going to be discriminating at fabled pulse depths.

Dean,

Thanks, my sister and brother-in-law summer in Prescott - the wusses can't handle a balmy 115* here in the "Valley of the Sun"

First Texas is that little chicken coop in El Paso which nakes Fisher, Teknetics (now with AmeriTek) and Bounty Hunter detectors.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if you DID get a hyrbrid (ability to switch b
> ack and forth), you'd still have devils-in-the-det
> ails. Namely that the moment you elect to be hunt
> ing in pulse (like a beach pulse or a nugget-machi
> ne-pulse), you can kiss TID (iron disc) goodbye.
>
> So you WON'T get the "best of both worlds" Ie.: y
> ou're not going to be discriminating at fabled pul
> se depths.


Tom I believe a hybrid is a system that combines both VLF/pulse into simultaneous operation, not to select between one or the other.

I think that in its pure form a hybrid system is useless.
For example, the impulse subsystem detects a target at great depth in heavy ground, but the VLF subsystem can not identify this target.
And then what will happen at the output of such a system?
Nothing, we'll get the same usual PI ...

The same situation like in Garrett ATX.... you have Iron check button. This is VLF circuit... but only for 6 inch depth. Useless. You need to dig first, so bad idea.

Cal_cobra Wrote:

>
>
> Tom I believe a hybrid is a system that combines b
> oth VLF/pulse into simultaneous operation, not to
> select between one or the other.


This is a mis-conception of the results of making crossover simultaneous systems. That a user therefore gets the best of both worlds. Like discriminating ability at depths of all-metal or pulse. But it won't work like that. The ability of the disc. to tell targets apart (TID) will still be the same as it has always been. EVEN though, yes, you'd hear the target deeper. Yet only in the all-metal-mode portion of the audio.

example of this is the Whites eagle, XLT, etc... that had type of cross-over mode: You could have the VLF all-metal mode coin on WHILE having the disc. ping in for whatever disc. settings (or tone ID's or whatever) that you had elected for. And many people made the mistake of thinking this meant they were getting discrimination TO THE FULL DEPTH of their all-metal ability. Hence they thought it was no-longer-true that all-metal goes deeper than disc. Since they could now combine the two modes.

But the truth was, that if a dime (for example) could be properly ID (or to have known conductive vs non-conductive) at 8 or 9", and yet the ALL-METAL could get that same dime to 10 or 11" (2 full inches deeper), that: When you ran the cross-over mode, you STILL only had the SAME 8" or 9" depth on the ability to TID the dime. That additional 2" of audio on the dime (all-metal side of the equation) only got it in the mono-tone all-metal mode. So you didn't know if it was just iron or whatever.

There was a good reason why some people still thought they were discriminating deeper though: Because the *mere fact* that you'd got little grunts hither and yonder, tended to make the user be drawn to them. And you would subconsciously center over them better, smunch your coil, study them more, and ........ presto: you might start to hear the hint of whether or not it was conductive. CONTRAST to if you were NOT in that cross-over mode, you might not have been drawn to "investigate" the various smaller beeps in the first place.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dean,
>
> Thanks, my sister and brother-in-law summer in Pre
> scott - the wusses can't handle a balmy 115* here
> in the "Valley of the Sun"
>
> First Texas is that little chicken coop in El Paso
> which nakes Fisher, Teknetics (now with AmeriTek)
> and Bounty Hunter detectors.

Rick,
I know how they feel. I've become a wuss too since moving up here from the Valley.

I sure hope FT comes up with something ground breaking. I used a GB2 for micro nugget shooting for years. Great machine (still is). Anymore, I have no use for a VLF for nugget shooting. For coin and relics, I'm a huge fan of the machines made in Turkey at present. I wouldn't be surprised if Nok/Mak came out with a PI soon.

As to the OPs question...Should a company come out with some new tech like GPZ with disc, get ready for the price tag that comes with it! We nugget shooters have been shelling out $4,000.00-9,000.00 for PI or GPZ performance and $300.00-1500.00 per coil for them. Imagine a machine like a PI or GPZ with disc...wouldn't be cheap. It would revolutionize both aspects of the hobby though.

Dean

Physics is tough. That's the ugly secret behind the lack of progress in metal detecting. Any fool can design clever electronic circuits to do all kinds of wonderful stuff with digital signals and even produce wonderful analog symphonies from the result.

The hard graft is that ugly dirt - the weird changeable - in some cases poorly understood matrix that our treasures hide in.

Compared to finding tiny low conductive targets in amongst ferrous and nonferrous trash - and a changeable ground matrix – hunting Nazi uboats in the North Atlantic like my uncle Harold a somar operator - did was TECHNICALLY ONLY a piece a cake. but I guess he didn't think it was that easy - when he knew that A mistake would make him and his ship disappear.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2017 04:58PM by lytle78.

So I understand that minelab has a patent on detectors that run multi frequencies all the time and that eliminates the competition from using this technology. My idea is to get around the patent by designing a machine that had multi frequencies which could be turned on and off independently or combined to run at the same time. This would offer the next step in being able to fine tune the detector to your ground and the type of items you are hunting for. This machine would allow the user to run a single frequency or a custom combination of frequencies. Any thoughts? Would this even work?

I don't see Hybrids as taking off I think something new will be the answer..

and it may already be here but not complete yet......think 7000

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

7000 Dollars - lol

That was yesterday's dream down under. Now that thing sells for a good bit less – and the "tax on gold" has been rolled back severely.

The next world beating detector if it ever arrives will either cost $1500 or will be rapidly driven out of the market by equally advance detector but does cost $1500.

My opinion only – your mileage may vary – and Keith Southern is a pretty smart guy

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

I've designed 2 "hybrid" VLF/PI detectors. The first was a "deal with the devil," based more on a bet than any real market need. I was asked, "Can you make a detector that combines VLF and PI into one unit?" So I merged a Surf PI with an MXT. I designed a combo transmitter (the hard part) and even tested it; it worked. The next step would have been to add a receiver (simple) and program the receiver (easy, but time-consuming). That would give a detector that could be switched between VLF & PI modes with a simple toggled switch. I considered it more of a gimmick, though I suppose some people would have liked it.

The second was a true hybrid, simultaneous and full-time VLF & PI. Built it, had it running, and it worked well. Got no more to say about that.

What I'm working on these days is a.... well, I can't tell ya that either. It's not a hybrid, but it is different. Can't give you an ETA either, it'll probably be when someone decides to shoot me.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've designed 2 "hybrid" VLF/PI detectors. The fir
> st was a "deal with the devil," based more on a be
> t than any real market need. I was asked, "Can you
> make a detector that combines VLF and PI into one
> unit?" So I merged a Surf PI with an MXT. I design
> ed a combo transmitter (the hard part) and even te
> sted it; it worked. The next step would have been
> to add a receiver (simple) and program the receive
> r (easy, but time-consuming). That would give a de
> tector that could be switched between VLF & PI mod
> es with a simple toggled switch. I considered it m
> ore of a gimmick, though I suppose some people wou
> ld have liked it.
>
> The second was a true hybrid, simultaneous and ful
> l-time VLF & PI. Built it, had it running, and it
> worked well. Got no more to say about that.
>
> What I'm working on these days is a.... well, I ca
> n't tell ya that either. It's not a hybrid, but it
> is different. Can't give you an ETA either, it'll
> probably be when someone decides to shoot me.

Thanx for the input geotech.

Here's a thought: Even if someone combined the two (so you heard over-lapping sounds, and/or could pick and choose depending on that day's type of hunting need), yet : Think about how ANY time a detector has been attempted at hyrbrid cross-overs: There's always compromises and "gotchas".

Example: Machines that were attempted that would be a cross-over for both nuggets and coin/relics. MXT, etc... Notice how they're always-only a so-so compromise. Ie.: there's better "nugget" machines and there's better "coin/relic" machines. Because the VERY goals of each one is practically diametrically opposed. Eg.: a coin guy DOESN'T want to "hear every speck of birdshot", etc... So to make coils and machines innards that "flip back and forth" with the flip of a switch, is probably no easy feat. So you end up with a so so compromise. Thus the hard-core guys will not touch them, and will get speciality machines for both venues.

So too would this probably be the case for a pulse (beach) vlf (coin-land) machine. I bet it'd be something where you'll simply shelve it, and reach for the *real* machine designed for a specific purpose.

No, actually the switchable MXT-SMPI would have had full performance in either mode.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, actually the switchable MXT-SMPI would have ha
> d full performance in either mode.


To be honest with you, I consider the MXT to be a poor coin/relic machine. It will get it's b*tt kicked by several other machines in turf hunting. So how about an Explorer combined with a beach pulse ? haha

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've designed 2 "hybrid" VLF/PI detectors. The fir
> st was a "deal with the devil," based more on a be
> t than any real market need. I was asked, "Can you
> make a detector that combines VLF and PI into one
> unit?" So I merged a Surf PI with an MXT. I design
> ed a combo transmitter (the hard part) and even te
> sted it; it worked. The next step would have been
> to add a receiver (simple) and program the receive
> r (easy, but time-consuming). That would give a de
> tector that could be switched between VLF & PI mod
> es with a simple toggled switch. I considered it m
> ore of a gimmick, though I suppose some people wou
> ld have liked it.
>
> The second was a true hybrid, simultaneous and ful
> l-time VLF & PI. Built it, had it running, and it
> worked well. Got no more to say about that.
>
> What I'm working on these days is a.... well, I ca
> n't tell ya that either. It's not a hybrid, but it
> is different. Can't give you an ETA either, it'll
> probably be when someone decides to shoot me.


Nothing interferes with the conventional VLF detector to apply current to the coil by the PI method and further analyze speed the attenuation.
Also, nothing prevents each new impulse to be applied on another frequency.
Here is the decision to combine multi-frequency VLF and PI methods ...
/Sorry for my English/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2017 06:22AM by vfp7.

When the law of diminishing-returns applies....... shoot Carl !!!

Yep... engineers (me included) have a tendency to keep designing (there's always a better idea to pursue) until someone forcefully stops them. It's called "shooting the engineer." I've had a strong desire to shoot David Johnson a few times.

A combined Explorer/PI would not be especially hard to do.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A combined Explorer/PI would not be especially har
> d to do.


Where I'm at , on central coast CA beaches, very few guys are hunting with pulse machines. Because ..., after storm erosion, nails could abound. And since most of the hardcore beach guys here are strictly beach erosion buffs (rather than dry sand or summer -recent-losses ), we simply don't see very many pulses on the beach. Perhaps because the beaches historically allowed bonfires (which introduce nails). Or because of industrial pasts, like wharves that burned down, etc...

Also, our beaches are not typically so black as to dis-allow most regular machines. Eg.: 6000Ds, cz6, excalibur, explorer, Sov, etc...

HOWEVER: There have been times where , in certain gully-wash outlets, where the sand becomes jet-gunpowder black. And the depth on standard machines gets reduced to a mere inch or two (or zero!). For those rare circumstances, I would have LOVED to have had a pulse machine. Because we can sometimes see silver coins right ON TOP of those patches, yet waving the machine over them, you don't even get a beep. Doh! Fortunately those patches are rare. But it would sure be nice to have an ability to switch over , at those moments, to get the ability of the pulse.

I don't know about 'shooting the engineer' but there are a lot of "hands from the grave' that can sure wreck a project timetable if someone isn't willing to chop them off.

My experience has been that almost anything is possible if its resourced properly.


HH
Mike