First Texas lawsuit against Deteknix - Settlement reached

EDIT NOTE - due to a brain f**t - this post originally was titled as FT suing Teknetics - in stead of Deteknix ---Teknetics is, of course one of First Texas' own brands. Thanks to Mike in CO who kindly PM'd me!

Steve H. Posted about an hour ago that a settlement had been reached with Deteknix acknowledging their infringement and that they ceasing to use the Deteknix brand name. Hete's a link to the thread on Steve's Detector Prospector Forum.

[www.detectorprospector.com]

Here's a notice First Texas put on their Facebook pagr.

To all Fisher and Teknetics Sales Agents, First Texas Products has dismissed its lawsuit against Deteknix after the two companies entered into a Confidential Settlement Agreement
Deteknix acknowledges that FTP owns the T2 software and agrees to the validity and enforceability of First Texas copyrights in its software code.

Deteknix has agreed not to infringe any First Texas copyrighted software code in current and future products.
Deteknix will take reasonable steps to ensure that their agents, servants, officers, directors, employees, successors, and attorneys do not violate the terms of our agreement.

This is great news that we were able to come to such terms. And, after a quick perusal of the Deteknix website it appears they have abandoned the Deteknix name brand.

In light of this, we will soon be rewriting our distributor agreement. This agreement will take a dim view of counterfeit reselling, and include strong deterrents against infringers. We ask that each of you look closely at your product offering and make sure that you are not selling any company’s products that infringe the copyrights of any metal detector manufacturer.

Best Regards,

Timothy Mallory
Vice President of Sales and Marketing
First Texas Products
1465 Henry Brennan
El Paso, TX 79936

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2017 10:22PM by lytle78.

In some ways it's a shame that Deteknix / "Jason" weren't able to produce a decent T2-inspired machine without directly copying the microcoprocessor code. Because they've clearly put some effort into producing the machine - a new LCD with on/off backlight; changing to push-button operation from the Rotary-encoder & button of the original; adding the wireless headphones facility as a built-in module; making a waterproof version; making it run on a single LiPo rechargeable cell; re-styling the entire mechanical packaging. I notice that the LCD can give a ground phase readout, not a feature on the genuine T2. You have to wonder if FT might be able to profit from his work in some way.

The name change will also please the UK-based detector retailer Detecnicks, who were most likely the 'inspiration' for the Chinese brand.

"Quest" was the winning entry in the global "choose the new machine's name" competition, you may recall, it's a decent name for them to trade with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2017 11:25PM by Pimento.

Why buy from a company that has to copy a T2 when you can buy from the company that produced the T2 FTP is a great company and that's why I will continue to buy their machines. It's nice to buy AMERICAN made machines and support a company that brings jobs to the American people.

Others will feed off a successful design, they'll bring out a product with similar features but for half the price, which they can do as all the leg work has been done for them, ok for the buying public, but it's the company that designs the original, all the R&D costs etc that takes the financial hit, and it can lead to a reduction/reluctance for further investment into new products and employment.

Many folk are patriotic and believe in supporting home grown businesses, for them buying copycat machines go's against the grain, some other folk just don't care.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2017 07:56AM by ghound.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. For a detector company to buy a T2, for them to be impressed with the performance and realize that depth, target seperation, ergonomics and user interface are ground breaking, then going away and designing their own answer/further development of the basic concepts, using their own brains and resources to design the mechanical package, design the circuitry and write the vital software code that make their new detector great - all this is good. It is good for their company and it is good for the marketplace and the users. After the T-2 several leading companies have done this.

Exactly copying the detail of non-copyrighted or patent protected articles is less admirable but nevertheless legal. This is the classic "copycat"

If you go on to incorporate copyright protected trademarks, software code, etc. - that is theft of intellectual property. It is unlawful, and in countries with strong legal systems is usually quickly stopped.

In this case - the T-2 software code was copied line-for line. They got caught - they got punished.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Thanks for the info Rick!

Yeah, that's his failing, the 'line for line' of some aspect of the code.
I'm intrigued about the details of how the code was copied/modified to make the Quest machine.
I'm pretty sure that the embedded software will be compiled. That is to say - Teknetics write the code in a medium/high level language like C++, and a Compiler program translate that into Machine Code, which is 'burnt' into the chip in the detector. Reading out the Machine Code is hard but do-able, the 'T2 clones' are likely produced this way. But understanding the machine code is very difficult, and to make any worthwhile changes to it, you need to understand it very well.
A legitimate way of 'copying' the software would involve taking the known functions in higher-level block-diagram form, and re-writing them, maybe even for a completely different microprocessor. You then end up with a product that behaves the same/similar, but contains no original code.
There are other ways of altering the product, particularly the input/output interface, using additional microcontrollers. For example the change from rotary encoder to push-button operation. A micro can be programmed to read the push-buttons, then translate that into a 'fake encoder' output, that is fed into the main processor, programmed with the standard code. So the main processor thinks it's reading an encoder, but it's actually push-buttons and another micro. That same additional micro could read the push-buttons and operate the LCD backlight on/off control, independant of the main processor.

The md-hunter blog site has some internal pics of the Quest machines, and while they do have some similarities to the T2, there are some areas that are quite different, there's missing features, and additional things.

You have to wonder if other companies may have been able to access the Chinese reverse-engineering info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2017 02:55PM by Pimento.

It does make you wonder why it was settled out of court,gut feeling tells me that FT 'did' not want any additional codes or additional indepth software details revealed easily,what ever the reason was at least the case is over,the Minelab v XP could be interesting as that involves 2 titans in the detecting arena,both with reasonably deep pockets and a lot at stake on this one.

Pimento Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm intrigued about the details of how the code was copied/modified to make the Quest machine.
> I'm pretty sure that the embedded software will be compiled. That is to say - Teknetics write the code
> in a medium/high level language like C++, and a Compiler program translate that into Machine Code,
> which is 'burnt' into the chip in the detector. Reading out the Machine Code is hard but do-able...

Yes, high-level code is compiled to a binary image and written to the micro, then the micro has options to "protect" the image from extraction. These methods are largely easy to circumvent, and there are a hundred companies in China who will extract the firmware from any micro you send them for a few hundred bucks. You then reverse-compile the binary to assembly language, and now you have the starting point for new firmware. Add a few new features, recompile, and you're done. Easy-peasy.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pimento Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm intrigued about the details of how the code
> was copied/modified to make the Quest machine.
> > I'm pretty sure that the embedded software will
> be compiled. That is to say - Teknetics write the
> code
> > in a medium/high level language like C++, and a
> Compiler program translate that into Machine Code,
> > which is 'burnt' into the chip in the detector.
> Reading out the Machine Code is hard but do-able..
> .
>
> Yes, high-level code is compiled to a binary image
> and written to the micro, then the micro has optio
> ns to "protect" the image from extraction. These m
> ethods are largely easy to circumvent, and there a
> re a hundred companies in China who will extract t
> he firmware from any micro you send them for a few
> hundred bucks. You then reverse-compile the binary
> to assembly language, and now you have the startin
> g point for new firmware. Add a few new features,
> recompile, and you're done. Easy-peasy.

+1

I don't think it helped his case any...that the guy who started up Deteknix did so after working in an illegal Chinese T2 clone factory.

Assuming this history is correct:
[md-hunter.com]

I'm glad that FT won the lawsuit, now I wish they'd release something NEW and INNOVATIVE.....

For those so inclined... [hackaday.com]

Cal, theft is quick - smash and grab. Invention and innovation take way more time. Even imitation is fairly straightforward. Doing something truly new is like finding a new route up avertical icy rockface - ome slip and you lose a lot of what you thought was progress.

Hell, we are just now beginning to figure out how the Romans lucked upon the magic formula for salt water resistant concrete.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Hi Mr Kempf

Any word on when First Texas will stop using these guys for distributing their gear?
[metallodetektor.com.ua]

[www.earthscan.co.nz]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2017 11:25AM by rustic charm.

NOTE - I have edited my original post to make clear that what I have stated about metallodektor.ua are my conjecture only.

Hi Rustic Charm

Here is First Texas' distributor in Ukrane - as shown on the FT website under "where to buy"
Ukraine
D.A.S Digital & Analog Systems
Mr.Dmitriy Korchev
(+380) 44 486 9328
das@das-ua.com
www.fisherlab.com.ua
.
I have no first-hand knowledge of the "facts on the ground" in Ukraine - I see nothing on the site you refer to (after running it through Google translate
to indicate that they claim to be an authorized dealer of FT products. Here is what may be going on.

The guys at metallodetektor.com are likely not an authorized dealer of FT products. Whether they actually supply the FT products which they advertise on their website or not, I have no idea. I see that they ship worldwide, so I guess if you are interested, you can send them some money for an F75 and see if it turns up.

If metallodetektor.ua does have First Texas product to sell, they are not getting it from First Texas as they are not an authorized distributor - the distributor in a country normally is the only authorized inporter.. If an FT distributor somewhere is sending FT stuff to Mars for them to sell, then FT will have to try and enforce their distribution agreement terms and stop it. Given the apparently fantastic levels of public corruption in Ukrane, getting enforcement of any sanction might be pretty difficult.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2017 02:26PM by lytle78.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Richard
>
> Here is First Texas' distributor in Ukrane - as sh
> own on the FT website under "where to buy"
> Ukraine
> D.A.S Digital & Analog Systems
> Mr.Dmitriy Korchev
> (+380) 44 486 9328
> das@das-ua.com
> www.fisherlab.com.ua
>
> The guys at metallodetektor.com are not an authori
> zed dealer of FT products. Whether they actually s
> upply the FT products whichnthey advertise on thei
> r website or not, I have no idea. I see that they
> ship worldwide, so I guess if youmare interested,
> youmcan send them some money fo an F75 and see if
> it turns up in NZ.
>
> If metallodetektor.ua does have First Texas produ
> ct to sell, they are not getting it from First Tex
> as as they are not an authorized distributor. If
> an FT distributor somewhere is sending FT stuff to
> Mars for them to sell, then FT will have to try an
> d enforce their distribution agreement terms and s
> top it. Given the fantastic levels of public corr
> uption in Ukrane, getting enforcement of any sanct
> ion might be pretty difficult.

More good info Rick!!

Ron,

I re-read what I posted and I have gone back and edited it to add a disclaimer - I have no detailed knowledge of what the company in question can or can't supply and if they can supply FT products, where they get them. Since they are NOT the FT Ukraine distributor, they aren't likely getting them from FT.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold