American Metal Detector Manufacturers

With the ever increasing new detector models coming from Nokta, Makro and Minelab just to mention a few, why are American manufacturers so slow on releasing new machines to compete on the world market?

Good question!

It might be “paralysis by analysis”. Some innovate,others replicate. Since the ground itself seems to be the limiting factor in depth from what I understand,then SEPARATION/IDENTIFICATION are things that can be worked on. If certain manufacturers just don’t have the R&D to create SOMETHING new,then they’re just replicating. I’d love to see a really good imaging machine come to market,but it doesn’t seem to be forthcoming....unless it’s a very well kept secret. A hi-res imager with USEFUL resolution would be a game changer altogether,even if 6-8” is its limit,and even if it’s expensive(2-3k).

Being born here in the USA I was taught that we invented the car, electricity, and the phone. Starting in 1975 vehicles like Toyota got a lot better gas mileage and were super dependable. The only way Domestic companies competed was GM put their name plate on Isuzu trucks, Ford used Mazda, and Dodge used Mitzubishi. Now Smart phones have taken over.....made overseas. Its even hard to find a Craftsman tool made in the USA. In the past, some metal detector companies would take the previous model and change it ever so slightly......the color, name, coil....or adding a knob and taking one away....ha. For awhile I thought The V3I was technology maxed out. The Whites TDI Pulse was using Eric Fosters ideas.....from UK England. We can point fingers at Tesoro, but the other US manufactures could easily fall behind. XP, Minelab, and Nokta/Makro are really pushing ahead.

virginia digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With the ever increasing new detector models comin
> g from Nokta, Makro and Minelab just to mention a
> few, why are American manufacturers so slow on rel
> easing new machines to compete on the world market
> ?

possibly because of ever "shrinking" market share! ..evolution of v.l.f. technology has reached it's zenith,and because of "hammered" sites which produce "limited" good finds.
also possible "liability" issues with hunting private property.
quite possibly "shrinking" profit margins due to increased costs of production,parts acquisition,and engineering.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

The internet has made globalism a reality. American companies can either compete or go under. Just the way it is.

A lot of Americans think that Henry Ford invented the car. He didn’t. He didn't invent mass production either. He was the first person to marry the two together and founded the Ford Motor company after a couple of failed attempts (out of the second attempt sprang Cadillac). The car was invented in Germany.

Electricity may have been pioneered in the US, but if it wasn’t for the Serbian Nicola Tesla we wouldn’t be where we are today. Edison pushed for direct current but it was Tesla that discovered the concept of alternating current, fluorescent lighting, radio control, etc.

The telephone was invented by the Scottish born Alexander Graham Bell while living in Canada, although it seems that there were around 18 other people who also were working on that concept as well, and led to several lawsuits. But simultaneous discoveries are not that uncommon in science. Also, the subject dear to our hearts, metal detecting, was also invented by Bell in 1881.

At least the US gave us basketball, right? Not exactly.

Hip hop. There you go. As American as baseball and apple pie (oops, thats from England).

Could it be because they do not oversea(s) all of their manufacturing being done in one place?

i.e. - keep the companies barely running however get a number of their products made in China to keep the investors happy (bigger profits), however tug on the patriots apron strings through their 'Patriotic' marketing - therefore creating some doubt as to where the actual product is made

Look at how long it took one company to fix their shoddy MXS fiasco? - Now imagine if you will, that they were being produced overseas - This could account for the very long delays in getting that one white elephant addressed - Not long after that this manufacturer did announce that they were getting some of their other models made in China. In fact these guys go on and on about PATRIOTISM yet I was surprised to find that all their promo gear I have is all made in China - WTF? - these guys hammer the fact that they support US manufacturing however caps, pens, headphones etc etc all made in China -

Just like that other big US player - To get them to admit that they do get some of their products made in China too - Getting that information a few years back was like pulling teeth out of chooks -

Personally I think US manufacturing especially in this hobby is in serious trouble. There is no shame in getting products made in China and they can be made to the specific standards set down by the those who present those orders - Its that simple and there is no way the west can emulate that because the west has been shafted out of the manufacturing industry by patents/copyright laws. Something we know China does not abide by, making it easy for ALL manufacturers to stay away from possible litigation -

While manufacturers in the USA are still endeavoring to create this illusion that all things are made in the USA, the rest of the world has simply got on with the work of designing the latest in technology -

At the end of the day you got to ask yourself what manufacturer do you want to represent or invest your hard earned cash with?

For me its a manufacturer who keeps me informed as opposed to one who does not - its that simple

Now from what I gather - Whites - Garrett - Fisher - Bounty Hunter - Teknetics - all have some components, parts or models manufactured in China ...................... Tesoro from what I understand was the only US manufacturer who attempted to continue to do it on their own - I do believe that these guys are shutting shop - Perhaps this is why other manufacturers have gone running to China ..... to simply survive

Just my take however Mr Rick (with the upmost respect) will be along shortly to tell me how wrong I am - btw I love US manufacturing however if you lay any Makro/Nokta down at the feet of a mature true American Patriot and a F75 for example. No brand names or any indication of where it was made and ask that man by looks alone, which detector do they believe is made with that US reputation for being built like a tank? - Hands down they will go with the Turkish units -

As your President says ........... we have to bring our manufacturing industry back home

I have no idea how this can be done now as those rich investors will not allow it so the standards of US manufacturing will never reach those dizzying heights of what once made them world famous when it came to manufacturing anything -

That's your 1%ers for you

[www.earthscan.co.nz]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 12:42AM by rustic charm.

RC - you always know how to get me to post something - guess you like reading my random thoughts.

XP - not American - not built “like a tank”

Equinox - not American - not build “like a tank”

Makro/Nokia - designed and assembled in turkey out of Turkish and Far Eastern parts - built like a tank - I agree, I used a Druzes and found it to have a charming “brutalism” of design. Looked tough - don’t know if it is.

First Texas - happily told you and others YEARS AGO - that they had exactly one model built in China m the Bounty Hunter JR. - and even that has two production lines - one n China - one in El Paso. The packaging of the machines clearly indicates which ones are made in China - no secret.

Nobody builds metal detectors which have the majority of their electronic components come from anywhere else but the Far East - including China.

Your persistence in spreading this FUD about US firms - is remarkable.

It’s always fun corresponding with you.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2018 11:57PM by lytle78.

RC was spot on.
I know one company who got caught with a digging tool not made in USA. Someone asked about it and no shxt it wasn’t made in USA.

The claim made in USA has been changed by a lot of manufacturers besides detecting companies to assembled in USA.

Companies have to compete in selling prices. So it would be hard to shell out top dollar for equivalent labor and be able to compete with those who do outsource for the cheaper labor.

Some detector companies in USA slower to adapt it seems. And have paid for it too, in more ways than one.

Here is what will happen in time.

Yeah China and such are riding high right now. Given time though even their labor will be expensive as some brain trust will start working third world company and theybtoo will get in on the act with even cheaper labor than say China.

A country such as this needs to have ports and easy access.

Maybe in another 100 years or so, countries of Africa will be in on the act.

Sound far fetched.??

I won’t be around to see if my prediction comes true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 12:25AM by tnsharpshooter.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RC - you always know how to get me to post somethi
> ng - guess you like reading my random thoughts.

I love reading your posts Rick, when I get time -
>
> XP - not American - not built “like a tank”
>
> Equinox - not American - not build “like a tank”
>
> Makro/Nokia - designed and assembled in turkey out
> of Turkish and Far Eastern parts - built like a ta
> nk - I agree, I used a Druzes and found it to have
> a charming “brutalism” of design. Looked tough -
> don’t know if it is.

One only has to look at their trouble free international warranty to know how 'brutally' well made they are -
>
> First Texas - happily told you and others YEARS AG
> O - that they had exactly one model built in China
> m the Bounty Hunter JR. - and even that has two pr
> oduction lines - one n China - one in El Paso. The
> packaging of the machines clearly indicates which
> ones are made in China - no secret.

Incorrect - In fact I spoke with Dave J myself on a post regarding this particular point - You will quite easily find that there is more than one model involved and they are FT biggest sellers made to exacting specifications set down by FT - IMO, It would stand to reason that over time those numbers and models would have increased, otherwise FT Board should be sacked for not doing their job -
>
> Nobody builds metal detectors which have the major
> ity of their electronic components come from anywh
> ere else but the Far East - including China.

Maybe so - Most companies do not try to hide this fact
>
> Your persistence in spreading this FUD about US fi
> rms - is remarkable.

These are simply my beliefs Rick from my experiences and what I have seen in the industry - I do not have a horse in this race so to speak and have always tried to stay independent when it comes to Brands etc - I will say it again - I love gear made in the USA - There is something staunch about owning American made gear - Love it - Mr Dave J is my hero like Superman is to you Rick lol - I am simply frustrated like everyone else in how quiet US manufacturing has become. Frustration my dear friend not hate or dislike. This hobby means more to me than a like or dislike for Brands etc ......... So much more ..........Hell we all want to see real US design and manufacturing all over again not only for the benefit of the USA but for the benefit of the world. If you all at home working then there's no-one out fighting lol
>
> It’s always fun corresponding with you.

With the upmost respect Mr Rick the very same to you -

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

The idea of "Made in America" is antiquated.

RC

You wrote...

“You will quite easily find that there is more than one model involved and they are FT biggest sellers made to exacting specifications set down by FT”

I am quite sure you are mistaken. If they in fact had detectors produced in China and sold them marked as “Made in the USA from US and imported components”.they would be committing fraud.

What evidence do you have for the above statement? Kindly present it or withdraw your potentially libelous statement.

Or, as I suggested a couple of years ago when you first trotted out this fantasy - submit a complaint with the US Federal Trade Commission.

P.S. First Texas is a closely held corporation. They have no shareholders or public board of directors to answer to.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 03:24AM by lytle78.

How about components manufactured elsewhere and then assembled here? How much can produced overseas before the Made in America does not apply?

Great question. Here’s some USG info

[www.ftc.gov]

False statements by manufacturers in regard to this matter can result is substantial penalties for violating US laws and regulations.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 03:09AM by lytle78.

rustic charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are simply my beliefs Rick from my experiences and what I have seen in the industry...

The problem, Rustic, is they are beliefs and based on no first-hand experience. I worked for White's for 6 years, now work for FTP, and have toured both the Garrett and Tesoro factories. I believe I have personally invited you to FTP in the past to show you, firsthand, just how wrong you are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 03:43PM by Geotech.

I've often wondered why US detector manufacturers haven't gone down the route of producing a new range of selectable frequency detectors to compete against the likes of the Deus, Makro range, the Nox if you discount its multi-frequency ability, and even the older X-Terra range with different frequency coils. For some reason they seem hell bent on sticking with single frequency detectors which is surely limiting their desirability. It's not a case of innovating, simply an effort to keep up with and stay relevant in the current global market.

A re-designed F75 with selectable frequencies would have been a good candidate for a range topper, and also the Garrett AT Max could have greatly benefited from such a upgrade - basically anything to invigorate what seems at times to be the same old thing being rehashed in a different form, or with minimal changes when compared to a superseded model.

Even as I write this I can't help but think that it would be a case of too little too late if they were to go down this road. Anyway, just a thought.

Too many regulations on American manufacturers perhaps? IDK. Cheaper/easier to design and build outside of the US because of this?

Opening a physical business here is a total pain with all of the regulations, inspections, etc. Very costly too ( more so than it was 20+ years ago). Now with the push to a $15.00+/hour minimum wage I would guess things will slow down even more. The cost of products will certainly rise.

My experience has been as a services business for the last nearly 30 years and I've witnessed how costly it has become to maintain a business with only a few employee's. I can't imagine what it must be like in the manufacturing business with product liability, warranty, environmental regs, numerous employee's, insurance, etc.

Dean

When I look at the AT Max I have to wonder why they released it with no multiple frequency option. It seemed like the logical next step. They could of had a big share of the salt water hunting.

Maybe the security side of metal detectors gets the most business. The hobby side could just be a niche.
Then I also watch videos from People like the Hoover Boys using those AT Max detectors and I think to myself it is about location not the detector. If you are digging Bust dimes....Well that is just about as good as it gets. Aside from that gold coin which they also found.


So it comes down to swing what makes you happy. Wait for the next detector release that will fill your needs. Some company out there no matter where they are located will get my money if they deliver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 01:03PM by goodmore.

ROI, economies of scale, funds exchange rates, labor costs, R&D and engineering resources too invested in previous product with limited opportunity to expand horizons (costs too much for expected return). And possibly, design and development talent is long in the tooth and just playing the game as the bean counters call the shots.

Wayne

I dont think very many people can appreciate exactly how complex the EE is for a multi-freq detector. I see so many people saying "they should just release a MF to stay current". Its not that easy. Why do think Minelab has never patented their MF technology? If they did, that info would become industry wide.

Not only does the detector have to generate a set of freqs, it has to collect, interpret and correlate all that info instantly and present it as something we can understand. Not only all that, but coils have to be designed and built to be tuned for the frequency used. Now imagine designing a coil that is tuned for a variety of freqs. Its not as simple as just wrapping a few turns of wire. Some manufactures have gone out of business because the one person who built the coils quit or died and nobody else could get it right.

Made in America not exactly put together in America using foreign parts....more like it....

How can foreign companies like Toyota afford to have manufacturing plants here on US soil???

Bruce Candy/Halcro/Minelab have been applying for and receiving patents for multi-frequency, complex waveform(BBS/FBS), and PI technology since at least 1990.

[www.geotech1.com]

[www.geotech1.com]

[patents.justia.com]

The current Minelab development team is staffed with a significant number of PhD level physicists.

If U.S. companies want to compete in the high end of the market then they need to make a commitment of capital and engineering resources. Unfortunately the past history of U.S. companies does not bode well for that possibility. Several of the U.S. based metal detector engineers have had careers that resemble that of itinerant/contract workers with relatively short stays at several companies.

It'll be interesting to see how the China tariffs will affect detector prices.

Starting 01/01/2019 - Finished goods made in China 25% tariff, components sourced from China, 15% tariff. That means you can expect a min. 15%-25% increase in "Made in America" detectors (and pretty much anything else that takes electricity to run), unless vendors are willing to absorb the cost.

These tariffs will put a lot of people out of jobs. Don't ever expect to see electronic component manufacturing to come back to the U.S., that ship sailed 40-50 years ago.

Here's an interesting article for those that are interested to educate themselves on U.S. manufacturing: [qz.com]

IDXMonster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .... I’d love to see a really
> good imaging machine come to market,but it doesn’t
> seem to be forthcoming....


When I read the OP's question, my first thought was: What does he think is available (or invented) by foreign markets, that's not already simply on American made machines, in the first place ? Although I'm a Minelab user (love the Explorer), yet I'll admit there's american made fishers, Garretts and Whites that can mimic it. So why the inference that foreign made machines are somehow superior, and that USA makers are slacking ? Why that starting premise ? I don't find it to be so.

UNLESS you're someone who's fallen for the advertising gimmicks that some of the are touting, for shape-showing. The glossy ads that seem to hint you can see the shape of objects, or tell gold apart from aluminum. But alas, anyone falling for that is in for a big surprise. They still can't tell aluminum apart from gold. And any purported shape showing (despite how the ads make it look) is of utterly no use to the average md'rs. The problem always is: Pixel size is an inch across, at the smallest. Hence all the stuff we find (rings, coins, nails, buttons, pulltabs, etc...) are all still ....... doh ... 1 pixel ! You have learned utterly nothing about the target !

So I disagree with the starting premise of this question, that something made overseas is any sort of new mousetrap. Oh sure, bells and whistles get improved from time to time. But not the basic concepts when comparing USA to foreign.

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IDXMonster Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > .... I’d love to see a really
> > good imaging machine come to market,but it doesn
> ’t
> > seem to be forthcoming....
>
>
> When I read the OP's question, my first thought wa
> s: What does he think is available (or invented)
> by foreign markets, that's not already simply on A
> merican made machines, in the first place ? Altho
> ugh I'm a Minelab user (love the Explorer), yet I'
> ll admit there's american made fishers, Garretts a
> nd Whites that can mimic it. So why the inferenc
> e that foreign made machines are somehow superior,
> and that USA makers are slacking ? Why that star
> ting premise ? I don't find it to be so.
>
> UNLESS you're someone who's fallen for the adverti
> sing gimmicks that some of the are touting, for sh
> ape-showing. The glossy ads that seem to hint yo
> u can see the shape of objects, or tell gold apart
> from aluminum. But alas, anyone falling for that
> is in for a big surprise. They still can't tell
> aluminum apart from gold. And any purported shape
> showing (despite how the ads make it look) is of u
> tterly no use to the average md'rs. The problem a
> lways is: Pixel size is an inch across, at the sm
> allest. Hence all the stuff we find (rings, coin
> s, nails, buttons, pulltabs, etc...) are all still
> ....... doh ... 1 pixel ! You have learned utter
> ly nothing about the target !
>
> So I disagree with the starting premise of this qu
> estion, that something made overseas is any sort o
> f new mousetrap. Oh sure, bells and whistles get
> improved from time to time. But not the basic co
> ncepts when comparing USA to foreign.

Yet you choose to use an overseas machine, when you could be using a White's V3i (probably the most similar to your Explorer from a U.S. vendor) or CZ or other (not many to choose from) MultiFreq machine

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Yet you choose to use an overseas machine, when yo
> u could be using a White's V3i (probably the most
> similar to your Explorer from a U.S. vendor) or CZ
> or other (not many to choose from) MultiFreq machi
> ne


Correct. But notice I'd clarified that ..... like you say ..... there are similar American made machines. Nothing vastly superior there vs here. They're all good machines, once you're comparing apples to apples.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RC
>
> You wrote...
>
> “You will quite easily find that there is more
> than one model involved and they are FT biggest se
> llers made to exacting specifications set down by
> FT”
>
> I am quite sure you are mistaken. If they in fact
> had detectors produced in China and sold them mark
> ed as “Made in the USA from US and imported compon
> ents”.they would be committing fraud.
>
> What evidence do you have for the above statement?
> Kindly present it or withdraw your potentially lib
> elous statement.
>
> Or, as I suggested a couple of years ago when you
> first trotted out this fantasy - submit a complain
> t with the US Federal Trade Commission.
>
> P.S. First Texas is a closely held corporation. T
> hey have no shareholders or public board of direct
> ors to answer to.

Settle down Mr Rick -

true to form however please check with Dave J as you are the one confused -

There is no need for me to spend my time backing up what I have said when you do not back up what you have said -

Now the other point to note out of all of this is that you still keeping hammering on about that one point time and time again, yet do not address everything else that I have put within my posts to back up my claims -

Time and time we get from you statements like "of course manufacturers get parts/components made in China" -
OK we accept that then it should be no problem what so ever for FT to publicly state which models are Made in the USA - which models are assembled in the USA and which models are made Off-Shore?

You say - One
I say - two plus

Where do we find that information from Mr Rick? - Nothing on site - Therefore I spoke with Mr Dave J (I will look for the post in question, however I stand by what I have said)

Where did you get your info from and why is it not Publicly Disclosed?

“You will quite easily find that there is more than one model involved and they are FT biggest sellers
made to exacting specifications set down by FT"

Now you seem to have problems with the above quote - Let me make it simple for you Mr Rick

You act like the FT spokesperson around here so I take it you have contacts in FT - Contact Mr Dave J first
before trying to intimidate me with litigation regarding what I have posted - Secondly, it makes sense that FT would ensure that any manufacturer that they would use would make the products to the exact standards set down by FT - Also the fact that they are FT biggest selling units was the reason that they had to be made off-shore to keep up with demand - NO SURPRISES there given FT's level of professionalism. So which part of the quote are you having problems digesting Mr Rick?

It must be the number of models - We live in the world of making profits for shareholders Mr Rick, no matter what the cost to our very own economies. That's the greedy big corporations for ya - Until we as the consumers fully understand that, then they will simply be loyal to a brand name no matter what truth may be presented. I am not here to drag your company down. I am simply passing on my findings over the years to you. You can do what ever you want with it & it looks to me you are getting quite angry about it -

I think you need to do some home work and ask some questions to your FT contacts for a change as opposed to what ever it is you do in their presence - Very approachable people and happy to pass on information - Give it a go - You may find it, educational

[www.earthscan.co.nz]

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great question. Here’s some USG info
>
> [www.ftc.gov]
> 7/05/examples-applications-ftc-proposes-new-standa
> rd-made-usa-claims
>
> False statements by manufacturers in regard to thi
> s matter can result is substantial penalties for v
> iolating US laws and regulations.

Too many dramatics by finger pointing Patriot could lead to another needless invasion - Whats your point Rick?

[www.earthscan.co.nz]