"strange" behavior of my S.E.F coil vs. Minelab's "Pro" coil...

Steve(MS) and earthmansurfer -- thanks for the excellent posts.

Steve, I can relate to what you are saying about "unmasking." I STINK at it, as I've stated here before, in that every time I try to listen close and dig a more iffy target, it turns out to be a piece of that mid depth to deep iron you describe. And that's the tradeoff that I'm wrestling with; I have always run my machine super hot, and thus the falsing fools me all the time. Running sensitivity much lower, reducing the falsing and the threshold nulling, and I dig more good targets, but I do feel that doing so, I am crippling my ability to hear the sounds that apparently one must listen for to perform a "deep coin hunt" -- similar to what you and Keith Southern have described -- that "otherworldly" ability to be in tune with your machine and hear things others don't. So it leaves me with a dilemma...run the lower sensitivity (with which I have more experimenting to do, but so far it DOES help me to pick out the hidden mid-depth coins from the falses), or run it maxed out and learn to listen for that mysterious "deep coin" sound amongst the falses that is so elusive for me...

For now, I'll continue experimenting with running sensitivity just below the level where the iron falsing starts becoming a problem -- but also knowing that I may need to learn another skill entirely if I want to pick the deep coins in the old "hunted-out" parks -- the ones that still lie there, just below the depth where most other hunters over the hears had been able to hear them...

That story that Keith told about those two hunters cleaning up on their "tour" of the hunted-out eastern parks, while absolutely incredible, makes some sense. We've all heard the stories from the old timers who would take the early generation detectors out and hit a virgin park, and just fill their pockets with silver. I can see how learning to hear 10"-12" coins routinely would open up a WHOLE NEW strata of soil, below where the coins have been generally cleaned out -- and it could be like the parks were "virgin" all over again! Similar to scraping off the top 4" of soil with a dozer, I can see where learning this skill would open up brand-new opportunities to find the goodies (just as those two guys on their "tour" of the eastern U.S. demonstrated...)

Steve

Steveg - I'm in a similar boat as yours looking for deeper coins and your feelings echo mine. I often wonder if they are there because my V3i goes deep and I find really old coins less than 6" deep on a regular basis. So, I've wondered if it is the soil? But there must be some deeper coins between the iron, at least in places. My deepest coins are at around 7" or 8" (usually with iron around) - perhaps I can't expect more.

Now to my point. I don't know what machine you are using so I'll speak in terms of percentages. I normally run my V3i at 80% or so sensitivity, really higher as their are two circuits and the one that really matters (discrimination sensitivity) with depth is at 85% - 90%. The machine is mostly quiet there regarding falsing BUT I hear the deep iron every swing. I hear it CONSTANTLY (as a nulling with my setup.) Well, yesterday I dropped the settings another 10% and that iron was 75% gone. I was hunting and there was no nulling and I just didn't like it and after a bit had to turn up the gain. But from my testing I know I would still get 8" easy depth on coins, if not more. Would I see "through" iron better with the lower gain?

I think I need to go back to that quiet hunt for a while and see what turns up. I'm not saying I (we) are overpowering the unit, but the Einstein quote comes to mind: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. It's like I'm afraid to back off the sensitivity because on my Omega I can absolutely max it out in iron and it doesn't seem to hurt.

Experienced guys out there, I would love your opinion. (My ground has next to no mineralization but the heavy iron does mineralize into the ground. I'm running the lowest filter setting and am basically set up for iron (correlate, very small amount of iron reject (breakup))

EMS

ps - I'm tempted to try an E-trac out and just go slow in the iron.

earthman --

I'm using a Minelab Explorer SE Pro -- where sensitivity ranges from 0-32. You have the option to run auto sensitivity, or manual; when you run auto, it sort of "picks" the sens. level that the machine feels is stable, less than or equal to the level you set it at. So if you set auto sens. 28, for instance, it will run as close to 28 as it can, while remaining (in the machine's opinion) semi-stable. If you switch to manual and set it at 28, it runs at 28, period. I used to run auto sens. 32, thus allowing the machine to pick, theoretically, as high as 32 (though I doubt it ever would). However, lately I've been running manual, in the 26-28 range. Running that hot, the threshold nulling and iron falsing are really pronounced at most sites. BUT, like you, it's hard psychologically to run it lower -- when I'm trying to see as deep as I possibly can. Seems counter-intuitive to LOWER sensitivity. However, I've been trying to run lower, keeping the iron from falsing as much. Doing so did help, until today...we had over 4" of rain this past weekend, so the iron is REALLY active; even running sensitivity down into the teens I was still getting a ton of falsing! I'm finding it really tough to make that next breakthrough to where I begin to understand how to REALLY sniff out the goodies -- the ones that are either deep or partially masked...

Meanwhile, I am intrigued with the V3i; every time I hear someone talk about how they operate, it fascinates me. But, I think an Explorer or E-Trac are probably equally good machines -- and I obviously still have alot of learning to do on it. Obviously, I am not at a place where I understand how to accomplish unmasking, or hearing the subtle hits of deep coins...though I am determined to get there. While someday I'd like to try a V3i, for now I want to really master this Explorer. I know it can be done, I just need to figure it out...

Steve

I would be remiss if I did not mention again:

Although you may select/choose to run all 3 freq's on the V3i..............yet; even in this configuration........ by definition....... it is still a single freq unit. All three freq's are kept separate. They are also displayed separately. Never once..... do the 3 freq's come together. Unlike a Minelab or Fisher CZ..... where all of the frequencies are 'merged' in a comparator.

There are advantages/disadvantages to both types of platforms. True multi-freq units handle bad-dirt/higher-mineralization better than single freq units. In general........ multi-freqs will provide greater depth in bad dirt...... as compared to their single freq counterpart. BUT...... multi-freq units will 'false' on iron to a greater extent.

Single freq units handle iron much better......... with substantially less falsing. Single freq units have less depth performance in bad dirt....... due to it's inability to 'comparator' analyze ""confirmed-dirt-mineralization-feedback...vs...actual-deep-target-delta/return"".

((( To contradict myself; the F70/F75/F75 LTD single freq platform seems to handle bad dirt...... to the capability level of the multi-freq CZ platform. Leave it to Dave Johnson/John Gardiner to partially defy mother nature ))).

The V3i does conceptually pose a interesting attribute.............. as........ it is 3 single freq detectors in one unit. In theory...... it should 'resonate' on silver........ 'resonate' on brass........ and 'resonate' on gold.......(high, medium, low conductors). I often wonder how the V3i platform would respond to a target that is at fringe depth. A target that is just barely within detectable range of only ONE frequency; yet, out of range of the other two frequencies.

steveg = Say you run Sens at a 10% reduction from Max level. In turn........... this may pose a 400% improvement on iron ID...... and reduce human fatigue factor by 250%......... but reduce depth on a silver coin by 10%. Choose your pain! ((( I tend to choose the 'suffer' mode... more often than not! ))). And yes............. sometimes a loud silver high-tone chirp in-and-amongst an ocean of rapid-fire machine-gun iron tones and 'falses'...including high-tone falses.....................vs.................. a weak silver high-tone chirp in an ocean of near-silence..... is MUCH more differentiable.... and may warrant a better recovery ratio/statistic. (((But only on the non-fringe depth -usually less age- coins))) :-)

NASA-Tom --

You just laid out the dilemma perfectly and precisely! The only solution I've come up with thus far is, when I have a site I want to hunt thoroughly, run the "lower sensitivity" to better ID iron and reduce the "fatigue factor" -- and more easily pick out the "good" high tones. THEN, once I've pretty well cleaned it out, crank up the sensitivity and try finding a few more "fringe" targets...

Steve

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom -- you are referring to potential "silent
> masking" from rust flakes, for example? That's
> why my method of "sanitizing" (using a deep
> machine, in all-metals mode, and digging all the
> targets I COULD hear) is not a "perfect" solution,
> as I obviously left all the targets I COULDN'T
> hear, targets which might be causing masking
> issues that I'm not even aware of. Obviously,
> your "rare-earth magnet" sanitization of all the
> soil in the test garden, after clearing all
> "audible" targets with your detector, is the
> ideal...
>
> Steve


I can certanly see removing all man made metal from the test garden, but removing the natural iron ( magnatite etc.) seems like its defeating the pupose of a test garden, why not just haul in a load of clean Fla beach sand or just do an air test. Using a magnet to sanitize the ground is going to remove the natural iron and not give a accurate representation of what to expect in the field.
.I havent tried it but I could probably get a cup of magnatite out of a 5 gal. bucket of my dirt. Its the minerals in the soil that determine how well a detector works.

People become set in there way's so to speak ...They get into one hunting mode and pretty much stick to it...I have seen it a bunch ....same setting's every site...no matter what coil or what ground condition's or site condition's ...they get out of the car setup machine the same way they have for year's and hunt...

There's dozen's and dozen's of way's to hunt site's..and every site is different....The newer machine's we have now relays so much more info that it really makes site reading and understanding so much easier....

I hunt old house site's in the wood's and they are true iron hole's....

I myself personally when relic hunting like to work a site down...Systematically working down to the deep layer....just remove everything.....You wont believe how many people I have hunted with over the year's that say there site is dead then go with them in there and there's huge pieces of flat iron everywhere????
I say to myself man they haven't even started to hunt this site...You wont believe how many people wont dig iron no way no how....I am not talking about nails but big iron....one large axe head or stove part cancels out a huge volume of dirt..remove the big iron and all of the sudden there's the find of a lifetime lying 3 inches deep!!!

It take's day's and day's of hunting a site to get it to start producing again after the countless casual hunter's have worked it ...

If you can ever get in perfect harmony with your machine....and really really get a true understanding of target behavior in your dirt and site it will become second nature to get keeper's out of dead hole's...

You wont be getting 10% of what is really there but it's more than the other guy who gave up because of lack of knowledge or laziness?

I myself am always learning new ways to hunt or new setting's to use ....but the number one rule is if it's makes a beep dig it....even a crackle of a beep once you get it down to that....I have dug super nice button's and such that sounded less than a good sounding nail false...

If you are in a site that you have removed the larger target's even iron and you are hearing deep small iron coming in on the low tone try turning the sens back till the iron is no longer heard grunting or is real weak then see if some of the close to the surface good target's start to come in...


Thats one reason a little tesoro compadre does so well in worked site's...it does not have enough power to let the deep iron overcome the first 5 inch stuff..
It just cant see the deep iron like a high power machine can....

Now once you get a site cleaned on low power go back and turn up the gain and start digging every iffy sound you can and after awhile it will payoff..it takes lot's of hour's to get proficient ....Good target's mixed with nails and also bad dirt at depth are tough tough tough...

I have a buddy who always ask me why house sites produce button's but not a lot of bullet's....Well the simple truth is the button's are lighter and they stay toward the top of the soil and can be got with modern machine's that were missed by older machine's....But the bullet's are there also in abundance but they are deeper by natural occurrence of weight sinking them down and those are tough to get to when mixed in the deep iron jambalaya as I like to call it...

The biggest success in metal detecting is learn all you can about your machine and the way it react's in different scenario's....and dig dig dig...and dig some more....You will surprise your self more often than not on the find's you make...

I myself have had some great find's in the last year and they were not easy got...those day's are mostly over....but there's ton's and ton's of stuff within reach of a simple VLF machine's if you use your mind and sweat to get them....

You need to be able to hunt deep and hunt masked all at the same time..... very very beneficial if you come to grip's with it .....I promise you one day it will all click in your head....


Next time you hunt check your pouch at the end of the hunt....How much iron is in the bag ...how much foil....how much trash????Think about it...


I learn and learn more on a weekly bases....that's the great thing about detecting you will never know it all or learn it all...

I think it was Bobby Jones who said the game of golf is played in the space between your ear's....Well detecting is a lot like that....It's done between your ear's...

Keith

WELL SAID Keith!!!

Hobo.......... you are correct also. The entire intent of creating a test-garden in YOUR specific location........ is to simulate YOUR real-world conditions. If you have a certain amount of magnetite NATURALLY in your soil........ you will want to have this level in your test-garden also. BUT.... yes....... any man-made trash (iron or otherwise)...... is critical to be removed...... so as to remove the variables....to create a 'bench' or 'base-reference' unto which everything can be compared/measured against. (( In addition to the fact that it will condition/educate you..... open your eyes to some 'unknowns' )).

Keith -- terrific post. I'll be a happy man when it all "clicks in my head" as you put it! You obviously have a truly amazing amount of experience and knowledge...I hope to be there someday!

Hobo -- by discussing removing the "inaudible" iron, I was not even thinking about magnetite. I was thinking about rust flakes, which NASA-Tom has described before how they can cause SILENT masking -- you don't hear them, so you don't know they are there, but they STILL can mask a good target. But, if your soil has naturally-occurring magnetite in it, then that's a different story -- but NASA-Tom already explained that part. Bottom line, as he said -- removing the MAN-MADE, non-naturally occurring stuff, allows you to set your "baseline" condition, within which you can compare other machines/coils/settings and get viable results. But, the NATURALLY occurring stuff in your soil is another story. If that's what's in your soil, then you knowing, through test-garden testing, which machines perform better IN THAT SOIL, is obviously a very valuable piece of information...and thus the magnetite needs to stay...

Steve

I find this old thread interesting and maybe beneficial for maybe others to read/reread. Folks this thread has some GOOD stuff in it!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2015 06:07AM by tnsharpshooter.

I hunted with a really low IM and used the smart sceen not the digital screen. It had a lot more information..... but the tone helped decide it for me.

Terrific thread.. And as they say "timing is everything". I happen to be going thru some challenges myself with an SE in areas where I acquired good targets previous, however now i am running against a few enemies like EMI, Possible machine issues and my own weaknesses in finding/hearing the deepies.

I agree on running w/o any iron masking for sure with regards to depth. However I chase so many "false signals" when i do that, it just makes it to impractical to run that way. If I operated my machine that way 5 days a week, in time, I could probably discern between an iron false and coin signal I'm sure like many others can do. I will be doing more in the field testing this weekend and hopefully will have some good results to show for it.

Again-Great thread here.
Peter

"Wow!!!
This is 'a blast from the past' thread!
Originated in 2011
Revisited in 2015
And rejuvenated in 2018

It's a good thread.

When the SEF for the FBS machines first came out, and after extensive testing, little or no improvement in performance / capabilities were observed either inland and on beach In 99% of found and dug targets.
If I remember right, the SEF signalled 'just one target' the stock coil didn't pick up?

The stock coil 'had it' for more even ground coverage, less falsing, less weight (at the time of release users were reporting more finds, and we hear that each time about a new release anything. But as I soon found out why: the SEF was so much heavier than the stock coil it just had to be worked slowly otherwise your hand would fall off... hence the 'extra finds') sharper signals, better audio, better discrimination versus ferrous bits on pasture land (farm) and less affected by electric fencing and 'general' EMI.

Hey Des!!

Lot's of new models since then but the basic approaches are still the same..

Peter

Those are are successful in deep hunting coins etc with the FBS are the open screen guys..you have to learn the Audio nuances.youll learn a nail will sound flatter and higher pitched slightly than a silver coin..and the silver coin will flute somewhat ..Especially in conduct mode.In ferrous mode the deep nails and silver will be have similarly as the deep nails are trying to wrap to high tone.YOU on the ends of detection depth and if just nail disc is added it kills that deep coin hit...Wide open Ferrous is the easiest to learn how to hunt deep with, As the nails if not right at edge of depth can low and high tone or go low hopefully. then after you get accustom to it then you can try conduct most its even more challenging but has better tone..A deep coin and nail together can be even tougher..what you will get is a decibel higher pitch and a intermingled calliope a decibel lower warble..again if you add just nail disc it creates a null and that interrupts the audio gate so the signal is not as clean or intelligent...

Deep hunting coins with a FBS is an art form..If you ever catch on to it you will be rewarded..Its not the coins either even minnie balls etc get into that coin tone range at extreme depth.

the main thing though is non ferrous at depth is warbly usually and nails flatter slightly pitch higher.

if you do apply just a nail reject you will have to learn to really creep slow..and then the signal will be broken on extreme depth but if you train your ear to that you can do well to..

But the guys who show lots of silver coins in hunted out areas are very much running there machines opened up and as high on sens as they can get by with

The beauty to this is where as usually with a Vlf to get those types depth you can get with FBS you have to run in threshold based all metal mode and cross check in disc and still dig alot of deep iron..with the FBS if you learn to get the most out of it opened up its like being in VLF threshold based all metal mode but you have some sort of ID in the audio..Not much but some..That's where the 13 inch dime claims you see on the internet coming from..it didnt read dime it was just they got a signal and had a good guess it wasn't nail and it turned out to be a SIlver dime down there.

As the depth of coins back off some to the 8 inch range etc then the tones can start to be trusted more and some accurate Guessing can take place and even nail reject can be applied ..But at extreme depths your just hoping your experience has got you to not dig a nail but it can be a multitude of other non ferrous things besides coins tricking you.


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Well said Keith. I loved the explorers. I remember when the SE came out..... everyone was buying the explorer II standard coil...... until the SEF and Pro came out. It takes time to click.... that oh those are weak tones im hearing in the back ground and just how slow you can move with them. Thats was the pay off to me. NOTHING sounds as good as the explorer on silver IMO. Tones were the key to its success. But people learned also how some targets moved on the smart screen at depths. Like a nickel... it could move to the lower right corner. When introduced that smartscreen made it a machine to have. I for one dont care much for a single digit machine with the digits jumping all over the screen. I much preferred watching the smartscreen and listening to the tones..... and rarely looked at the Ferr/Con digits. But .... out of the box with the ET the learning curve was easier.