etrac/V3i/F75se test scenario

Since I have all 3 detectors I got curious. I review all treasure/metal detecting forums regularly. I notice 2 things when looking. Based on what I see on the forums, etracs are finding more silver especially dimes and from the looks of things the V3i fairs no better than the F75se and I suspect there are more F75's relic hunting vesus coin hunting, so per capita the f75 may be outdoing the V3i. I did a little test using a clad dime with a steel allen wrench. I placed the dime on top of the small allen wrench on top of the ground. I never moved it and tested all 3 detectors on their ability to signal the dime. First the F75se BP mode sen 60 , I used disc 6, 1 tone. My test starting point is the same with all 3 detectors. In the starting postion I got a good tone and could see 70 coming up at times with fluctuating high numbers. Turn 90 degrees and get ID 9/10 on the screen with a broken tone.
I went to disc 4, 4h tone. From the starting position I got a mixtue of tones with an occasional high tone with medium to high display numbers, turn 90 degrees and got clicks on the sweeps.

Etrac with 10x12 sef coil, trash density high, recovery fast conductive mode 22 manual sens, from the starting position got a good high tone with ferrous numbers running as far down as 27 on the screen depending on coil height. In this particular swing direction, I varied my sweep from real slow to real fast-faster than I would swing any detector and got a high tone seemed like EVERY time. I would even vary the coil swing off slightly to the side and there seemed to be a pretty good window for the etrac to sound the high tone. As I rotated toward 90 degrees I kept getting a high tone and it progressively became more broken when I passed the 60 degree window it nulled and continue to null while rotating to the 90 degree swing position. The etrac in manual 27 sens would even give a high tone from better than 8 inches when swung from starting position.

V3i with stock 10dd coil 3 freq best data disc 85 rx8 recovery 45 all tones zeroed except for all positive VDIs, no numbers disc out. from my starting position I got a good tone swing from only one direction. The window of detection was a lot smaller than with the etrac. Any small deviation off the line (so to speak) and the V3i would not signal at all. As I started turning I turned maybe 20 degress and the V3i would only null. At 90 degrees nothing but a null. Even at the best position of detection I noticed the V3i would not signal a tone consistently. When I would get a tone I tried my best to keep swing speed uniform and coil distance uniform. From a number of heights above the target I could not get the V3i to signal a tone consistently/ Sometimes it would signal a tone in 3 back to back passes and then nothing. Sometimes it would give a tone in one swing direction only to reverse and pass over the target and notta tone. I varied recovery delay and tried these settings to 20/30/40/50/60. I ran the rx gain up to 10, I tried both 5 band pass and 5 high filters and single 2.5 freqI saw no improvement in getting a tone on every sweep of the coil. If I was going to put a percentage on the success rate of tones given for each consistent sweep over the target using what the machine seem to like the best for swing speed, I wouild say 6/7 out of 10.

I ground balanced all detectors except the etrac of course. The V3i wasn't indicating any EMI. One thing for sure the etrac's window of detection was far greater than the V3i-angular plane of detection. And the etrac was far more consistent in signaling the target from the best detection position. The F75 actually saw the dime from every point while rotating from the starting position to the 90 degree point in disc 6, 1 tone. After the test, I even removed the dime and swept the allen wrench in disc 6, 1 Tone and notta tone just a small short click. I will say when the v3i did give a tone it ID the dime better than the f75se for me. The etrac was always CO number rock soild 43/44.
Doing test like this is helping me learn my f75se better especially after reading the good info Tom has posted on his site.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 02:09AM by tnsharpshooter.

Good testing Sharpshooter!

I would have liked to see the Etrac running in Auto or Auto+3. I know that if I run my Etrac in manual=27, I'll get a high tone with a nail over a coin, and a high tone when removing the coin! I find that the Etrac just high-tone falses too much when running manually at sensitivities >= 5 points what is set by AUTO.

I'm also curious how the F75 would react in CL mode.

I'll try to repeat your test using a %#}~|{¥% calibrated CZ3D in place of your V3i this weekend.

I did have the etrac in auto plus 3 sens, it performed the same other than it lost some depth/distance. I just didn't mention it as I felt it was unimportant. And yes running an etrac 5 points over will be a falser for sure. I usually stay at no more than 3 points above and have found some deepies, more when dry versus wet.

hey go-rebels -- your "*&^%$#" thing above cracked me up. I -- completely unintentionally -- typed NASA-Tom's name over at Findmall today, in a post discussing "sink rates" (just citing my source), and read that thread a bit later and saw the (*&^%$# inserted where "Dankowski" should have been...just cracks me up completely! So, so silly...

Steve

Don't get me started...

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> V3i with stock 10dd coil 3 freq best data disc 85
> rx8 recovery 45 all tones zeroed except for coin
> tones, no numbers disc out.

> Any small deviation
> off the line (so to speak) and the V3i would not
> signal at all. As I started turning I turned
> maybe 20 degress and the V3i would only null. At
> 90 degrees nothing but a null.

There is a small flaw in your testing.
First off, the V wasn't nulling, it was doing what you asked it to do by giving a "0" tone (which is silent). Even though no numbers were rejected, the zero tone sounded like a null. It was reporting "no tone". Secondly, try setting the zero tones to a tone of 150 and the coin tones (+70 and up) to 225 and repeat the test. Still you are running with zero discrimination on the V and discrimination on the other two. Another thing to remember is that the V will give you broken up tones if the "accepted" window for the coin(s) is too small. Example: A clad dime is +78, so you need to go three below and three above that number - Accepting VDI's of +75 thru +81 and doing the same for the tones. I am not sure if it will make a difference or not in performance but it just jumped out at me when I read it.

Tom's "Head to Head Comparison" article comes to mind when doing this kind of test.

Schultzie: I can see where you would see this, my mistake" I actually had all positive vdi numbers assigned a tone". I will edit original post not to confuse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 02:07AM by tnsharpshooter.

Rebel's has a real love for the Mall.........whoosh.....that sound is me running from Rebel

Not knocking your test but the Recovery delay was not close to where it should have been set for the 10DD. Again I know my SE and never used the E or 75 so I can't say you had those two set to their best. It's hard to do a good head to head unless you know all the machines and set them to their best.

So the 75 gave more info thru the 90 rotation were the etrac nulled out? I have a f75 and in iron sites I will dig all good oneway hits evan when i turn 90 and get the iron id, a lot times it a good target laying with a nail The 75 will almost always hit both ways. I have had it for 2 years and still learning a lot.

Well Robert, I'm all ears as to what my recovery delay value needs to be set. You let me know and I will redo the test and post the results.

Docbars, that is correct. From the starting position the etrac was IDing the dime. There was no mistaking it. With the f75se it was not as obvious. But at the detecting position when turned 90 degrees with etrac nulled the f75se gave a broken tone in disc 6 1 Tone with ID 9/10. So the F75 saw something in this position, one just couldn't tell what it was. But at least it does give a diggable signal, not so with other 2 detectors. This test to me shows one of the F75se capabilties when hunting in nails where masking takes place.

You said you used the stock coil, that would be the 10 DD to give the V the most time to get the most the coil needs to be processing the signal as long as the target is under the coil. For actual hunting I would set 2 coins on the ground say 1" wider on each side 12" in this case. Then I would swing the coil to find my hunting swing and then swing over the coins. Start high 100 and then reduce RD until you can just hear both targets.

For the test I would be swinging slow enough to get the RD at 100 to work. The V3i seems to doing it best, in most cases, slow and with one of the 5 filters for max performance. In trash your setting of 45 would be fine.

Robert, I understand how to set up recovery delay. From your original post I seemed to think you thought I should try a different recovery delay setting to improve the results of the v3i in the test. I actually used recovery delay setting 60 first in the test with varying sweep speeds and then experimented with the others and found no improved effects. I plan to do other test too in comparing these 3 detectors. I have had the v3i for over a year, the etrac for 8 months, and the f75se for 9 days. The etrac is no slouch in trash. I have really done well with it. There is not too much to set on it to get peak performance as long as you don't sweep too fast in iron/trash. The f75se is an intriguing detector and will so it seems see masked targets other detectors won't using discrimination.

I have done a considerable amount of testing with the V3i and E-Trac, and a little bit with the Omega 8000. (If you care to see the former 2, just look at my youtube channel earthmansurfer69)

On targets in iron I found the V3i to be a bit better (with more depth) than the Omega. I found the E-Trac to be a bit better and considerably deeper, at least as far as stable VID is concerned, than the V3i.

The interesting thing about the V3i and recovery delay is that NO MATTER where I moved the recovery delay I still picked up all targets and at ALL depths. The RD made very little difference in depth (a teeny bit - slower recovery is slightly deeper). This didn't make much sense to me (the depth yes but still being able to pick up all targets - no), but it was true time and time again. And I am in Germany, lots of iron in the ground. Getting the RD down to a "fast" 45 to 55 just clipped the sound. I think the real difference and what to be careful with would be to run Correlate and not Best Data in heavier iron. This is NOT TRUE on iron tests (fresh iron) apparently, but correlate can be better on iron in the ground that is degrading. Even with the E-Trac, I could never LOSE a target in the field by changing a setting. I changed trash density, ground type, recovery settings, etc. The two settings that made the most difference, in order of effect were recovery fast and recovery deep. Recovery fast on would shorten the sound (clip it) and recovery deep made the VID less stable, but very slightly. I found that discriminate, almost every time, to be better than TTF as well. My ground, according to the V3i, is highly iron mineralized at a 1% level. That sounds low, but kills depth on all detectors but the E-Trac. (I had a T2 as well and this was true with it.)

I mostly would run both machines very hot, at 90% - 95% or so of peak sensitivity - with a small amount of chatter. I tried running it very low to get more depth in my soil from the V3i, but it didn't help.

Basically my in field testing matches what tnsharpshooter has found. Of course there are many variables to test with the V3i but I think I covered most of them. What I will say with the V3i is that when you change one of the sensitivity controls you should do a ground balance. (You should be in manual for your tests). Changing Filters could also use a ground balance but not recovery speed (from what I found).

In conclusion, the problems I have come across with detectors in my soil has everything to do with my soil. I know the T2, V3i and Omega are great detectors but the E-Trac just performs better in my soil.

You can manipulate anything if they do not do at one time.
you did not test T2 and Omega E trac is not a super detector,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 10:13AM by Denari.

Albert, there's one thing about the V3i I still don't understand. Ground balance. I see where the king of V3i users say it should be reground balanced with every change in a setting. Why? Here me out. The V3i's coil sees the same thing regardless of settings-meaning changing a setting doesn't change what the coil sees, the settings just change what the user hears in the phones and sees on the screen depending on detecting scenario. I can see where using the TX boost function would require a new ground balance because now you have changed IMO what the coil can possibly see (changing voltage to the coil). I also have read where the V3i has a superior tracking circuit when it comes to metal detectors. I have also read where one needs to manual reground balance V3i when using AUTO ground tracking periodally if hunting in trash. Some have said their machines drift. I have read where people have done their own test, and then some of the reviewers say uh oh, you forgot to reground the machine therefore test null and void. I plan on doing more test between the 3 detectors and I plan to keep the detecting scenario "as universally equal as I can for not to have a labratory". And the ground tracking issue is definitely one Item on the v3i I will be testing but not for comparison just for my own trying to understand this detector more. It hardly ever did make sense to me, why would the V3i have on the fly adjustments if and when you use them you have to reground balance to ensure optimum performance? And I dare say who would want to use a detector at "not peak performance for the dectecting environment one happens to be in st a given time"? Cheers Albert as always I enjoy your post.

Soooooooooo............... my question (and 'thought' for the day) is: Which detector ID'd the steel allen wrench the best!!!!!

Denari - I am not sure who you are talking to and your post is not 100% clear to me, but I think I know what you are getting at. If you mean that I have to test the machines together I would agree. But I used the T2 for over 3 years and then after one weekend of using the Omega, I noticed I was hitting coins deeper and with more stable IDs than I had with the T2. That is not a scientific test but it was so clear to me. But I did compare the Omega to my V3i in my coin garden and the V3i was noticeably MUCH deeper, had more stable VID's and separated better in iron, no contest. The E-Trac was better than both of them. Further, I have a few friends on the forum with V3i's and E-Tracs that have compared signals and the E-Trac came out on top most of the time on coins, both for depth and VID stability (and both of those together).

tnsharphooter - I am not really sure why you have to do a re-ground balance when changing sensitivity and filters. But I am not saying it blindly. A forum moderator told me that it "pulls things together" and so I actually tested it on test targets and it made a HUGE difference in the signal response, at least with sensitivity settings. The instruction manual for the V3i is a bit lacking in this and other areas and I can't fault the machine for needing a re-GB after certain setting changes - sort of comes with the territory.

I think the big giant difference between the E-Trac and other machines I have used in my ground is that the E-Trac has a superior GB, if we can indeed call it that. I think that is where it partly gets it's stable VID's and depth from and I think that a few guys around here said something similar.

Tom - The V3i ID'd iron MUCH better than my E-Trac on deeper targets. I was rarely every fooled by iron with the V3i. I am fooled more often by the E-Trac. As I have gotten to learn the E-Trac it fools me much less. Maybe only once or twice in a long hunt.

I got your message Tom, good one.

I have a better test for you to try.

Take a square nail or your hex wrench. And take something like a Glad snap tight container for snacks and such. And tape your nail or wrench on top of the container, and tape/glue your dime to the bottom of the container. Then report back to us your results...I bet every one of them will hit the dime when it's on top and probably none of them will even see the dime when the container is flipped and the nail or wrench is on top.

Placing a nail or wrench directly on top of a coin is not a good test IMO. Try doing it with a little gap between them and be amazed.

The only times you need to readjust g/b is after you change Rx Gain (hardware change), Tx Boost (hardware change) or frequency (hardware change). The others you wouldn't. It was stated to do after filter change it is not so.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Soooooooooo............... my question (and
> 'thought' for the day) is: Which detector ID'd
> the steel allen wrench the best!!!!!


That was my 1st thought...

One metal object 'touching' (grounding itself) to another object is not a good test.

***I did a little test using a clad dime with a steel Allen wrench. I placed the dime on top of the small Allen wrench on top of the ground.***

I'm unsure what this test is hoping to discover? This would not replicate common detecting situations - a coin touching a steel wrench?

Perhaps you place a steel bottle cap and a dime vertically over each other (but not touching) at various depths and again next to each other horizontally. That test might yield real differences in detector performance.

Well I would like to have Tom's question answered. which one performed the best?

((((( What if you are an archaeologist............ WANTING to find "iron" implements................... and do not want the detector to 'false' on the coin; but... rather......... ID the IRON properly!!! ..... and have 'coin see-thru' ability. )))))

OK. archaeology.

Not sure on the result? Perhaps:

The E-trac always had a consistent high tone in one direction and nulled near 90 degrees (assume that is not lengthwise to the wrench?).
The F-75 has a consistent good tone in one direction and a disc broken tone at 90 degrees.
The V3i had a inconsistent good tone in one direction and no signal/nulled at 20 degrees off the lengthwise radial?

If the wrench were magnetic it would change the equation. If the wrench were austenitic steel with chromium and nickel added the nickel would render it non-magnetic. Makes a big difference in response based on the wrench's permeability. Chromium atoms are anti-ferromagnetic - so very little added signal from magnetic domains, just mostly eddies on the surface. With the wrench having a stainless outer layer it is probably then chromium bonded to prevent oxidation and rust. Lots of variables.

A non-magnetic stainless steel wrench has very little signal to offer and is relatively harder to detect. It is non-magnetic so no help with the reactive side and very low conductivity so little help on the resistive side. Therefore, all the detectors with even slight disc should have nulled out the wrench.

The eddies induced on the dime should have been visible and apparently this was the case for the F-75 (mostly) and E-trac (always). The V3i saw the higher phase of the coin and displayed it better than the F-75 - I'd assume because it utilized three freqs instead of one to improve ferrous/non-ferrous discrimination. If the V3i nulled more I'd find this strange on a multi-freq detector. The performance would depends on the metallic nature of the target, the operating frequencies used, the design architecture, and the settings selected. But overall not a good showing for the V3i (if I understand the test correctly).

The E-trac was apparently solid in response. This may be in part due to it comparing low-to-high frequency resistive signal responses of the target without interference from the reactive signals. It basically just saw the spherical coin identically from any angle and ignored the wrench.

(((( And with all of that said-and-done; yet, I'll still select the F75 SE with 5" coil........ for iron-littered sites )))).