What would be the ultimate water hunting machine in salt water?...

I do not see much info on pulse and vlf machines on this site concerning water hunting. So, thought I would throw out the question of water machines. After over twenty years of relic and coin hunting I have found that water hunting at saltwater beaches has brought new excitement to my detecting addiction, and has also paid for many machines in the last two years. I now have a customized Minelab Excal II and am getting a customized Sovereign GT, that Treasure Hunter had previously waterproofed, and am having it customized with a pinpoint/ descriminate switch in the handle, and using a cable clam to make changing of coils available when ever I see a need for it. He had previously hard wired the coil. Great machine, and may become my go to machine for the water. I also own two pulse machines. The Whites dual field and a Tesoro Sand Shark Both great machines in their own right. Of course they are not used in heavy iron areas. I would like to hear more on the pros and cons of The different pulse machines verses the multifrequency vlf . Always looking for any experienced and scientific comparisons of machines. Maybe Tom will wade in on this topic. Abilities of each type of machine verses weakness, as well as customizations that can make each a better machine. Thanks...Stuart

Take your pick Excalibur or CZ21....as far PI machine never used one but from research expect a lot of digging which is not easy in the water and would wear you out quickly.
Never used a sand shark but from previous experience Tesoro's chattered like heck on saltwater beach atmosphere conditions...
Only ever hunted East coast and understand on some West Coast atmospheres just have to use a PI unit...
Might ask the same question on the water and sand forums and will let the techies chime in on this one but either one of the first two would work for me on East Coast...

Thanks Dan. Hoping for some tech talk here because this is the ultimate site for technical support, not just opinion by some who understand detectors and some who are brand loyal. You guys are the best at dissecting the best and worst of each detectors capabilit
ies.

The VLF/PI debate in salt water will always have lots of discussion as to what the conditions are on that beach/hunting spot.

Lots of iron trash (nails, rusty washers, etc.), forget a PI.

Bad black sand and pretty clean, iron trash wise, and a PI is the ticket.

What VLF...that depends on what you want in a dector. The CZ vs Excal debate ( leaving the CTX3030 out since this may be the next step up when compared to the CZ/Excal, but price becomes a factor as well as durability) for me always comes down to the features on the unit ( ie, concentric vs DD coil, manual vs auto ground balancing, 3 tone vs multi tone, etc.).

The performance for each ( having used both) was the same for me ( but bear in mind that is on the beaches I hunted...conditions will ALWAYS affect performance).

As far as PI's go, after using several different models, the Garrett Infinium has found the most gold and the best gold, for me. So I sold all the other PI's I had and kept the Infinium. Again...this is for me. Others have different opinions and resuts.

Bottom line, after all is said and done, there is really no single, ultimate unti for salt water beach hunting. It is really up to the individual. I can say the the overall majority of salt water beach hunters will say this....is has to be WATERPROOF !

I've always been curious about the Infinium. Seems like some love it and some hate it. Some say it can't be run in populated areas because of emi and others say it's all in the setup. How's that worked out for you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2013 08:22PM by sailorman.

I've never understood why so many water hunters use PIs.

In tough hunting condtions where you have limited mobility, you can't see what you're doing, waves occasionally pounding you, I would think you would want all the Target ID help you can get.

And the funny thing is, most PIs are waterproof. How come nobody makes a PI unit for regular wet sand use where you don't need it to be waterproof?

It would be so nice to have an ultralight Pi with normal plug-in head phones and interchangable coils. They could really lighten them up if they didn't have to be waterproof and if the coils weren't required to sink. That might be the next new thing, a PI detector for the beach. It might even have a screen showing information that could somehow help indicate what the target might be, not that that's necessary.

Think about that. A pulse detector for the beach.

And don't say TDI, I'm talking about a true PI beach detector specifically designed for wet salt sand.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 12:10PM by Badger in NH.

Sailorman,

The Infinium has worked out very well for me. I had to swap out the stock shaft for a straight one, and I switched the stock DD to the 11x14 mono coils ( which I use exclusively ) as well as fitting it with Grey Ghost underwater headphones.

This does not have to be done, although for beach hunting, I would recommend the mono coils if the beach is not very mineralized.

As far as set up goes, it really does make a big difference. The first thing to do is the frequency check to get the right setting to counteract any EMI. Sometimes when you move to a different location, there is a different EMI source, so doing the frequency check each time you change locations is a must.

Second is the ground balancing ( I believe the Infinium is the only water proof PI out there with this option....and it does make a big difference, but it can also be a detriment if not set correctly). One has to remember that the Infinium was designed to be a gold hunter, so that means it has a higher sensitivity to gold...hence a higher sensitivity to salt water. You have to adjust the discrimination setting ( which I believe is a pulse delay adjustment) as well as the threshold. I have found these work in conjunction with each other. After going through the ground balancing using the fast and slow adjustments ( which I then switch to the LOCK position since most of the beaches I hunt are pretty mild, mineralization wise) , you then have to adjust for STABILITY. That means running with the optimal threshold and discrimination setting for the Infinium to run smooth with very little falsing. MUCH better to run with a stable Infinium than an unstable one. Can't be afraid to dial up the discrimination and lower the threshold a bit to get it to run smooth. It will still hit medium and large gold rings and pendants at higher levels of discrimination.

One of the best features I have found, is the tone ID. I helps a lot with determining good targets ( ie, any target) as opposed to a false signal. The Infinium is a PI, so it goes get fooled by iron, and iron will give either low/high or high/low signals. Higher conductors like copper and silver are low/high signals. Gold, nickels, aluminum are high/low signals. When there is a REPEATABLE signal ( either low/high or high/low) it is almost always a metal target. Falses are usually one way signals, weak signals and never repeatable for the most part. So the tone ID really helps me in that area.

I had 4-5 PI units, including a TDI and an Eric Foster Goldquest ( awesome unit...only reason I sold it was I was not using it, and it's not waterproof. Wish I had the Aquasearch version), Whites Dual Field, PI-Pro with Mr. Bill mods, Sandshark. I liked all of them, but the Infinium ended up being my lucky unit, as it has found my best gold ring ever, as well as lots of other gold items. Found 2 the first time out, so I knew it was a winner...FOR ME. That is the key. Some dont like how it operates, how it reacts to salt water, etc. I do believe some older units did not have the thicker cable nor additional shielding, so that may have caused some headaches.

I like mine a lot and it's the only PI I have now and I will not sell it.

Hope that helps.

PS...I bought mine used and got a great deal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 12:27AM by therover61.

Used a whites pi1000 back in the day. No real fan of PI unless you can get
One with volume control and multitone or worse case with volume
Control.

I will be using a Tom D tuned cz3d for salt beaches and water.

I own several. In the process of changing the shaft with a carbon

Fibre rod, placing the control box in a waterroof container which

Will sit in a waterproof backpack fully sealed.

Confident i will be able to dive in the water if needed to and setup will work really well.

Not interested in spending $1800 plus on a unit that has many seals

The unit needs to rely on for it to be water proof. Why i am a fan of the

Cz3d is the price and depth capabilities these units can detect plus the

Multi frequency the unit uses. Hopefully it will function as well or nearly

As good as the cz21 but half the price of the cz21.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 12:23AM by wolfau.

One of the things that I think land hunters should take from the water hunters is to go to a straight shaft. You have no idea how much better the balance of a machine is and how much less effort it is to swing a detector shaft if you have never water hunted. Never understood why manufacturers insist on making a curved S shaft for almost all detectors. Straight shafts also make it easier to use a longer lower rod to increase your reach, a big advantage to cover more ground per sweep with minimal effort. The choice of coils will always be debated. Double D or concentric, 8, 10,12, 15 inch. Does the bell curve of a 10.5 inch coil apply in the water or do the physics change drastically with the addition of the added conductivity of the salt water which is higher in summer and lower in winter. A WOT coil that works great in winter will chatter terribly in the same area in summer. PI detectors do have their place, but will anyone ever truly make a PI that can discriminate like a multifrequency machine. Never tried an infinium but have read many reviews both good and bad. Just goes to show how important it is to know and understand your particular machines abilities and limitations. The waterproof Cz3d sounds like an interesting project. Please keep the forum members informed as to how well this machine works in the water and especially in salt water...Stuart

Badger in NH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never understood why so many water hunters
> use PIs.
>
> In tough hunting condtions where you have to move
> slow, you can't see what you're doing, waves
> occasionally pounding you, I would think you would
> want all the Target ID help you can get.
>
> And the funny thing is, most PIs are waterproof.
> How come nobody makes a PI unit for regular wet
> sand use where you don't need it to be
> waterproof?
>
> It would be so nice to have an ultralight Pi for
> the wet sand with normal plug in head phones and
> interchangable coils. They could really lighten
> them up if they didn't have to be waterproof and
> the coils didn't have to sink. That might be the
> next new thing, a PI detector for the beach. It
> might even have a screen showing information that
> could somehow help indicate what the target might
> be.
>
> Think about that.
>
> And don't say TDI, I'm talking about a true beach
> detector specifically made for wet salt sand.


Mine works great for water or dry sand. I'm impressed.
[www.treasurelinx.com]

DeepTech Vista X with 3 search coils.
Works for me

There is a dire need for a paradigm shift....... in reference to "wet salt" detectors and current-day technology (or lack thereof). Using a Eric Foster PI behind many other detectorists at a highly populated wet salt beach ..... is quite an eye-opener; insomuch as to finding many gold items that no other metal detector can see/detect. Yet, to expound on this experience/thought-process............ it can quickly be learned that: there are many times more targets missed....... even by the Eric Foster AquaStar-II....... then were detected behind all other detectorists. Complicating this exact phenomenon: How do you know what you are missing........... if you don't know it even exists. In furtherance: How do you 'measure' the unknown........ due to: 'you don't know it exists'. Why would a Mfr invent a detector to find things that 'appears' to "not exist".

Facing today's facts: today's VLF technology detectors are wet salt gold-dead. Even the CZ's and Minelabs. There are only a few AquaStar's still in operation......... and those folks of whom still use them....... "might" ""start"" to realize: "there are 'some' targets that other detectors can not detect". It is doubtful these owners of AquaStar's would ever think the next logical step: "There are MANY targets that still remain undetectable".

If you look at strictly the 'volume' of traffic on the Surf-n-Sand/Beach hunting forums........... you will quickly learn there are many times more beach detectorists than on any other single forum. This should be a marketing 'clue' for Mfr's.

Dial in a particular area on a particular day as wave curents change conditions from day to day and personal preferences anyone of the units mentioned could be the one.
Guess thats why the average hunter has more than one...or three...

Thanks Tom and I agree the Manufacturers should sit up and take note of all the customers who are water detectorists. Although a PI does not discriminate as such, I can say that on my duel field I can tell a white gold signal from all others but can not tell a yellow gold signal from anything else. The white gold is a much softer and smoother tone. Wish I could get my hands on an Aquastar II, but not likely to happen. Dan I do agree that the average beach hunter has more than one water machine for the exact reasons you mention, as well as blacksand concentrations and salt concentrations. One of the reasons for so many water detectorists, in my opinion is the fact that not only is gold so valuable but that most beaches are public domain. Most relic hunters have to do a lot of research and aquire permission for any land to hunt. This effectively keeps most casual detectorists from purchasing an expensive detector for relic hunting only. Park and dry sand hunters can use any of the multitude of general purpose detectors and have a fair amount of success, so they are not generally expensive unless you are a hard core detectorist and then there are top of the line machines that are great if the detectorist takes the time to learn his/ her machine. Still only a small nitch market compared with the water hunting market. Gold detectors, most are expensive and only for the serious detectorist. Site specific. Therefore, something of a nitch market as well but larger than the relic market I would think.

Water hunters are a very rare sight at New Hampshire and Maine beaches. I saw my first one ever last summer and I've been beach hunting for 17 years.

I think it's mostly because of our fairly wide tidal range. We occasionally wade out to our knees but there's really no need to actually get wet. There might be a few items lost out in the water at low tide, but it's hardly worth getting suited up for. Over ninety nine percent of the stuff lost in the water here can be found on the wet sand and the area normally covered with water at low tide is exposed on the negetive tides.

Here's a news video of Hampton Beach, New Hampshire on a hot day.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 07:52PM by Badger in NH.

Badger, you have to tell them the water never gets warmer than 50 degrees, the sky is not the only thing that turns blue in the summer at the beach, I've been hunting on the beach for 10 years in Maine in my area and never seen a detector in the water, but some of my tides are 3 football fields long, there is a lot of sand to cover, I hunt mostly in the winter when the sand is low and in the heat of the summer when the stuff is lost

C'mon Steve, it's not that cold. Old Orchard beach is no different than Hampton. The water may be 50 in early June but it warms up to nearly 70 degrees by August. I know that sounds cold to a lot of people but it's tolerable and people spend a lot of time playing in the water.

Sea temperature range for Hampton Beach. [www.surf-forecast.com]

If I thought it was worth it, I'd be out hunting the water every low tide. All you need is a wet suit. There's not much time to hunt it though. You might have an hour before the tide is on it's way back in again.

Yup, spring and fall is for relic hunting, winter and summer is for beach hunting.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 11:28AM by Badger in NH.

For one thing id like to see the mods you just mentioned having to do looked at seriously by ML. You can pay $1500 for an Xcal and put another $4 or $500 into it. Now compare the build quality of the Sov (which they did away with) or CZ21 to the Xcal..... along with the warranty. I agree some of those heavy machines we dirt dig with need a straight shaft..... for balance and sweep. In fact im looking at selling or trading my Exp Se now for a Sov since im now doing beach hunting. IF... IF we could get another 3 inches with some good TID here in Fl on and improved Sov we wouldnt need a PI. Salt water above and below the coil and that darn salt setting makes it tuff out there finding small gold.

Dew

I just don't understand why one of the big manufacturers doesn't reverse engineer an Eric Foster AquaStar-II and put it in a CTX-like package. Buy the patent if need be and start production!

What we perceive as hard core detectorists and what metal detector manufacturers perceive as businesses trying to make money are vastly different things.

Tom D. - In full 110% agreement with what you have said . . . and I know you have said
this many times before.

search and recovery . . . good info . . . Thanks.

Go-Rebels . . . Yeah ! why not ? The new retro camaro's & stangs seem to selling nicely?
It's called give the customers what they want.

Steve - Amen . . . we have been too easy and over charged . . . for nearly the same thing
. . . for far too many years.

It's not how much you know . . . It's how much you care.

.........................the AquaStar-II (actually..... the more modern version: GoldScan-5) is in mass production by White's. Eric Foster did indeed sell the technology to White's. It's called the TDI. However; there's one problem. Because it is assembly-line mass-produced........... the units are not one-at-a-time hand made; subsequently, the resultant is a somewhat reduced performance GoldScan-5. Even though it would sweep the markets...... and be a game-changer, , , , , it is still not feasable for White's to hand-make each TDI..... one at a time..... in perfected fashion.
The 15 year-old AquaStar-II is still the current trump card.

I tried the tdii pro oz version in Maryborough, Victoria.

Could not get a constant and stable hum and was told thunder or lightning
May effect it though there was none in site. Then tried the minelab
4500 and what a machine. Its like coin shooting but for gold with no
Interuptions with the high mineralisations in the ground.

Wolfau - Funny you should mention thunder or lightning . . . I am currently involved in a dialogue ( way over my head ) about MD'g EMI, Excessive Grnd Signal etc. and I am tempted to compare it to going down the road in your car listening to AM Radio while an approaching storm, most of the time not even in sight . . . is headed your way.

The 4500 - I have never even seen a ML much less held one . . . so it ran like a dream . . . how was the depth? Could you tell how deep it was capable of ?

Tom - Can you fine-tune / performance-tune those Whites GS-5's you mention above ?

The SD-2100 series through the current-day GPX-5000 units are quite good.

I have not found the time to dive into the TDI's or GS-5's (yet).

tom,.............I remember a past thread where carl moreland stated that producing 8us or even 6us capable coils would not be that difficult so, well see......!
I have not done any testing with my original whites tdi(goldscan 5 in whites packaging) yet! would like to compare it side to side, head to head with your aquastar whenever you can find time.

********************** all tdi's affter the first 200 original units are not goldscan5's they are modified/changed. ****************

mcgov51..........reg can tune a goldcsan5 or a original tdi and do a few other mods, or instruct you on how to do them. i think whites might even do some of these mods?

as for the ultimate water/beach machine......we have asked publicly in past threads and let the manufacturers know what we would like, i do think they are listening and in the process of building the ultimate gold detecting beach and water machine!!!?

chuck.

Underwater metal detectors should be very expensive. maybe thousands of dollars? I'm a green hand treasure hunter. What I got is an Underground Gold Treasure Metal Detector with 3.5 Meters Depth bought from [www.detectorall.com]. Is there any treasure hunter here?

Kmykimi, No there are no treasure hunters here on this forum, why do you ask?

It's a good thing Tom D doesn't use one of those Golden Treasure Hunting machines, or he would be coming out with lines like:
"If I could only scrape off the top 3.5 metres of soil and show you what was in the next 3.5 metres of strata....."

I guess it all depends on what you expect or want to find and where in saltwater. For me it's gold and platinum jewelry mostly in Caribbean shallow water. While I live in Washington State, I've made more than 30 trips to the Caribbean in search of lost jewelry. I go with a group to share expenses and have personally tried/used many water detectors. Actions speak louder than words and every treasure hunter in our group uses an Excalibur and mostly the 800. Why? Because in Caribbean saltwater Excaliburs have found by far the most gold and platinum jewelry. This is true for me too. Even so I have a love-hate relationship with Excaliburs because of their quirks, but use them because they work and find the most gold in the shortest time. One word to describe finding gold with an Excalibur: "EFFICIENT". That is why in actual field conditions we easily find gold and platinum with Excaliburs. If it's there, of correct shape/size and in range the Excal will get it. There is something magic about DD coils and BBS on gold jewelry in the sea. I call the Excalibur my Gold Magnet, and if there is a better machine, we would switch to it! Especially with gold over $1,000+/oz!

But, with limitations. Iron Mask kind of works. The threshold tone bounces all around. Forget smaller gold chains. Heavy black sand... finds gold, but sounds can drive you nuts! What about depth? Well, when everything is right and depending which version Excalibur used, pretty deep. I've used every Excalibur model from the Red Head to the new II. For me the Red Head is dead. Yes it had great headphones/crisp audio and may have been hand tuned, but to rely on it for travel, well it's just too old. I like the Blue-Tubes. They have the best gold range tones by far. Set right and if you learn to concentrate/listen, the 1000 BT hits deeper than the 800 BT. I'm not too fond of the Excalibur II colors, but the IIs will hit deeper than the Blue-Tubes, with less concentration. But with a price to pay as the gold tones suffer! With a Blue-Tube I know when it's gold, period! Not quite the same with the IIs. With a Blue-Tube, I can tell when it's a tab. With the newer IIs I have to dig more aluminum.

Lately I've been using an Excalibur II 800. It hits deep. As deep or deeper than a blue 1000! I will not say just how deep I've dug larger gold rings, because none would believe it! In a nutshell, the Excalibur IIs are the deepest. Most in our group now use a II, and most are switching to a 1000 II, because it seems to hit deeper. Most likely I will too for better ground coverage in most situations and better depth. I'm also thinking about going back to a blue 1000 for the better tones.

I've modified my Excaliburs. WOT coil. SEF coil. Sun Ray coils. The standard 1000 and 800 coils are just as good, if not better. I've done waterproof Bulgin coil plugs. Work good if done right, but I do not trust them in the water and will not take them on expensive trips. I've changed headphones including custom built Peltors by MGM (Mr GoldMaster), and must say my finds rate did go up because of the extra volume. But again such mods are not as dependable as stock phones, and have died on past trips.

If I had to pick just 1 Excalibur, it would be a 1000 II with yellow phones, or possibly a good used Blue 1000 with blue headphones. I would leave my Excalibur stock, except for a choice of balance shaft.

OK, what else is there for the salt and gold... PIs! Yes, in search of a better mouse trap I've tried many of them. Yes they will find more in the salt. That's the problem! As an example I once brought and tested a modified Whites PI SM by Mr. Bill. What a great machine and it was HOT on gold! As is the newer PI Pro with weighted coil. I walked up to the waters edge and hit a target just as my feet were getting wet. One scoop and much to my surprise there was a beautiful medium weight and very long 18K gold chain hanging off the edge of my scoop! Why I thought I had discovered a secret to more gold and felt the Excalibur would have missed that chain for sure! So pumped up, I decided to dig every target and for the next 3 hours that's exactly what I did with that PI. My reward... a pouch full of trash and not one more piece of gold! Frustrated I swapped for my Excal 800 and started finding gold rings again- at the same beach! I've tried other PIs too, like the HH PI, the Sand Shark. OK- there is little doubt some PIs will hit better on chains and some thinner rings, but none who has ever used a PI in our group has found as much gold in the sea. As a matter of fact, for those in our group who choose to try a PI, their gold find rate drops significantly! It's been this way for the past 15 years and our group consists of 6 to 10 guys! This is why we all use Excaliburs as they find gold consistently in saltwater. So far nothing works better.... except... the Infinium. I've had beyond great and so so results with my Infinium. On one trip I found some $7,000.00 in scrap gold with the Infinium and my finds picture made the Garrett catalog! The next trip I went back to my Excalibur because the Infinium was not producing the same (it might have been me and a State of Mind!) But so far the Infinium is the only other water machine to out-hunt an Excalibur. I think what makes this PI work is it is a gold machine with tone ID. I never dug iron with the Infinium, only gold range targets. And the Infinium goes scary deep! My deepest gold ring by far was found by the Infinium. A hi/lo whisper of a sound that turned out to be big gold down deep! I do not think the Excalibur would have picked it up. If I had to pick just 1 detector for everything land and sea, it would be my Infinium with all the coils. Use the mono coils in the sea. But the Infinium does not work as good as I thought in black sand.

I've also tried an older CZ 20, Tiger Shark, AT Pro, HH Diver and BHID. Nice detectors, but no match for the Excalibur in salt. I would like to try a CZ 21 10 inch and a BHID 300, but do not like the idea of having to GB in the surf! I do have a new weapon of choice and that is a CTX 3030. My first Caribbean dip with the CTX lasted 20 minutes as there was no battery gasket in place- long story... but CTX destroyed! While it was working, I had my scoop handle buried 3/4 deep recovering coin targets. It was obvious right away the CTX went very deep and ran silk smooth with the seawater setting! My guess deeper than any Excalibur I've used! So the repaired CTX will make my next Caribbean trip and I have High Hopes for it, and kind of expect it will find more gold in saltwater than my Excals. But, will the CTX hold up to travel? Is it tough enough? Will it leak after 8-10 hours in the water? One problem is the CTX coil shaft is some 32 inches long, and is impossible to pack in a standard size suitcase. I have to use oversize baggage and hope the airlines do not hit me up on that!

For travel the CZ 21 looks best for packing to me- all in 1 piece, with nothing extra to buy. Perhaps I've not given the 21 a fair shake. An 8 inch 21 might make for a great do it all machine. The 10 inch good coverage. But would the 21 find as much gold as an Excal- I doubt it. For fun the BHID 300. The BHID likes gold too and for wet sand hunting might actually be a better choice than an Excalibur/3030/Infinium, because it is a faster responding detector and can cover more ground in search of hot spots. But manual GB and 12 inch coil is not always best in the surf. Still I like the looks of the 300 and a well known water hunter/author recently told me to try a 300 in the Caribbean, because it hits gold rings deep in actual field conditions! He said the 300 loves gold!

No one detector will do everything best in the sea. Plus depth is not always everything either! If my back was against the wall, I would choose a stock Excalibur II 1000 for all round water use. It may not hit chains as well or go as deep as some of the PIs like the Infinium or possibly the Dual Field, but will find more gold at the end of the day because of efficiency in many surf conditions. In a set period of time an Excalibur allows you to hunt for and dig more likely gold range targets than any other water detector. For me the Excal is the one to beat and at this time my choice as best saltwater detector.

In the Caribbean......... where there are few hunters............ time/efficiency is the trump card.
In the United States......... where there are many detectorists...... beaches are easily accessible...... resultant: beaches are heavily hunted.......... leaving targets few/far in-between; subsequently, any detector that provides an 'edge' ......necessitates. ((( Right now (current-day technology) ----- this would be a high-powered PI with minimum pulse-delay ))).