TID and DISCRIMINATION go hand and hand

Target identification(TID), is usually, the assignment of numbers to certain targets. For example, a 30 on a machine may be a nickel. So let's say you want to discriminate out a nickel. So you block out the number 30 and when you run a nickel by the coil, you go no indication of a target.

Most know this. But what if the TID is no correct? Let's say the nickel reads 28 or 25 when it is deeper. You will get an indicator for those numbers. Therefore, discrimination is useless.

This stresses the importance of getting TID correctly(we are speaking in reference to a single target) at any and all detectable depth. Even with no discrimination, an accurate TID acts as discrimination.

In my recent excursion to an old picnic ground, I had the opportunity to experience all types of TID. Nickels with dimes, quarters and pennies and each variation in-between. On the CTX. a 12-28 would be a nickel and a penny. A 12-32 would be a silver nickel with a penny. A 21-43 a deep silver dime. So you can see how discrimination at this site, would be futile. So I relied on the TID and basically, dug everything. However, I was able to make a sweet cherry picking program for silver and find the hot spots.

Bottom line is, without precise accurate TID at depth(again single target), using discrimination for deep targets is useless.

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Target identification(TID), is usually, the
> assignment of numbers to certain targets. For
> example, a 30 on a machine may be a nickel. So
> let's say you want to discriminate out a nickel.
> So you block out the number 30 and when you run a
> nickel by the coil, you go no indication of a
> target.
>
> Most know this. But what if the TID is no correct?
> Let's say the nickel reads 28 or 25 when it is
> deeper. You will get an indicator for those
> numbers. Therefore, discrimination is useless.
>
> This stresses the importance of getting TID
> correctly(we are speaking in reference to a single
> target) at any and all detectable depth. Even with
> no discrimination, an accurate TID acts as
> discrimination.
>
> In my recent excursion to an old picnic ground, I
> had the opportunity to experience all types of
> TID. Nickels with dimes, quarters and pennies and
> each variation in-between. On the CTX. a 12-28
> would be a nickel and a penny. A 12-32 would be a
> silver nickel with a penny. A 21-43 a deep silver
> dime. So you can see how discrimination at this
> site, would be futile. So I relied on the TID and
> basically, dug everything. However, I was able to
> make a sweet cherry picking program for silver and
> find the hot spots.
>
> Bottom line is, without precise accurate TID at
> depth(again single target), using discrimination
> for deep targets is useless.

Some worthy info you provided.

This thread here I posted a while back,,,Deus will do things in this commingled target department a CTX can't do with any settings.
CTX's tone seems more tied to ID (moreso a combined TID with associated tone)- Deus is not-- if set up properly.

Now don't take this wrong,,,this works moreso with same plane mixed conductivity targets,,,,a tab over a deeper dime--- dime is not detectable.
[www.dankowskidetectors.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2016 06:28PM by tnsharpshooter.

Yes so true and mix a target some machines will run the VDI up or down. So why not just dig it?

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

If the site is worthy and has a lot of iron bits then I dig anything that blips above iron.
Dig a small shallow plug first if it's really a iffy target and see if it clears it up for the good, if it does I dig,most times it will turn to a straight up iron.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2016 02:36AM by supertraq.

I recently dug a merc at close to 9 in with the Deus that gave that tell tale meow sound and you just know it's a deep coin in full tones, no ID. I decided to go to the truck to get the ctx and Tom tuned CZ 6a to check it with them. The CZ gave a solid coin tone and needle reading. The ctx read it as a 12 39. 12 40 that I would have bet was a deep wheat penny that turned up to be the merc so, go figure.

Welgund Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I recently dug a merc at close to 9 in with the
> Deus that gave that tell tale meow sound and you
> just know it's a deep coin in full tones, no ID.
> I decided to go to the truck to get the ctx and
> Tom tuned CZ 6a to check it with them. The CZ
> gave a solid coin tone and needle reading. The
> ctx read it as a 12 39. 12 40 that I would have
> bet was a deep wheat penny that turned up to be
> the merc so, go figure.

Was the merc worn ???

Yeah not in the best of condition. I've had a few lower reading silvers before with with the SE Pro and CTX, not often but happens do to the mineralization I believe of the ground or if something else is f ragging it down like iron or trash etc. My colorado soil where I live is very unforgiving, GB phase in the high 80s to low 90s and and FE on f 75 sometimes as high as 4 bars. Lots of patches of alkali here.

Welgund Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah not in the best of condition. I've had a few
> lower reading silvers before with with the SE Pro
> and CTX, not often but happens do to the
> mineralization I believe of the ground or if
> something else is f ragging it down like iron or
> trash etc. My colorado soil where I live is very
> unforgiving, GB phase in the high 80s to low 90s
> and and FE on f 75 sometimes as high as 4 bars.
> Lots of patches of alkali here.


Most worn dimes I have ever found with etrac and CTX,,,come in a few points low---- cherry pickers should take note of this.

I'm only looking to discriminate out iron; so, discrimination is not useless just because non-ferrous targets don't always give textbook numbers at depth. If a deep silver dime gives a wheat cent signal, I'm still going to dig it. Deep nickels often give bouncy or unstable numbers. It may not be a nickel, and might even be gold; but, discrimination lets me know that it's definitely not iron.

"happens do to the mineralization I believe of the ground or if something else is f ragging it down like iron or trash etc"

You better believe it. Like I said, in this last excursion, I dug hundreds(no joke) of coins and noticed that TID was lower in ALL cases. A 12-41 wheat would be 12-38 the majority of the time. Silver dimes 12-44. The soil was river dirt(like a plain fluffy brown dirt) sand( was a tan dense layer) this strange gray clay(very dense).


"I'm only looking to discriminate out iron; so, discrimination is not useless just because non-ferrous targets don't always give textbook numbers at depth."

I disagree. What happens when conditions make low conductors dip, or stay in the iron range? On a f75, a $1 gold coin at depth can easily be in the iron range. It may read like a nail. I have heard that half dimes at depth can also dip into the iron range. Another situation is when a few pieces iron is co-located with a low conductor, that can make the TID appear as iron as well.

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "happens do to the mineralization I believe of the
> ground or if something else is f ragging it down
> like iron or trash etc"
>
> You better believe it. Like I said, in this last
> excursion, I dug hundreds(no joke) of coins and
> noticed that TID was lower in ALL cases. A 12-41
> wheat would be 12-38 the majority of the time.
> Silver dimes 12-44. The soil was river dirt(like a
> plain fluffy brown dirt) sand( was a tan dense
> layer) this strange gray clay(very dense).
>
>
> "I'm only looking to discriminate out iron; so,
> discrimination is not useless just because
> non-ferrous targets don't always give textbook
> numbers at depth."
>
> I disagree. What happens when conditions make low
> conductors dip, or stay in the iron range? On a
> f75, a $1 gold coin at depth can easily be in the
> iron range. It may read like a nail. I have heard
> that half dimes at depth can also dip into the
> iron range. Another situation is when a few pieces
> iron is co-located with a low conductor, that can
> make the TID appear as iron as well.


This is what happens in the soil here. It's not just low conductors that do it, it is high conductors as well. At some places here, you can put a coin as large as a silver quarter in the ground and it will be giving an all iron signal. The severity of the soil dictates how soon this transition occurs. In some places I've seen things at just 4 inches start to give low readings and dipping into the iron range. In most of the soils around here, a silver quarter will give an iron signal at about 7 inches on a machine like the CTX or eTrac and stock coils. You will only get a textbook silver signal at depths between 0 and 4 to 4.5 inches...and from 5 to 6.5 inches, the ID is skewed all over the screen before finally disappearing as an iron signal.

TID is at best ballpark as different years contain different metals, position of the coin, next to junk and many variables can change the TID...Indeed not useless as just a tool to give you an idea of what your after before you dig...Instead of taking that 30....how about 28-29 and 31-32 to give you a variance lest you let a lot in the ground.

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I'm only looking to discriminate out iron; so,
> discrimination is not useless just because
> non-ferrous targets don't always give textbook
> numbers at depth."
>
> I disagree. What happens when conditions make low
> conductors dip, or stay in the iron range? On a
> f75, a $1 gold coin at depth can easily be in the
> iron range. It may read like a nail. I have heard
> that half dimes at depth can also dip into the
> iron range. Another situation is when a few pieces
> iron is co-located with a low conductor, that can
> make the TID appear as iron as well.

Perhaps you don't understand what it means to say that something is useless. Useless does not mean the same thing as imperfect.

My Etrac, and many other modern machines, do an outstanding job of discriminating between good and bad targets at depth. To say that discrimination is useless is absurd. Discrimination allows a detectorist to maximize his time digging good targets instead of junk. Your contention that in certain circumstances a non-ferrous target may identify as iron hardly means that discrimination is useless. In fact, I believe the converse is more common, i.e., iron targets will sometimes falsely signal as non-ferrous despite using discrimination. Regardless, discrimination is a wonderful feature and few people would bother to metal detect without it in the 21st Century.

Daniel Tn Wrote:

> This is what happens in the soil here. It's not
> just low conductors that do it, it is high
> conductors as well. At some places here, you can
> put a coin as large as a silver quarter in the
> ground and it will be giving an all iron signal.
> The severity of the soil dictates how soon this
> transition occurs. In some places I've seen
> things at just 4 inches start to give low readings
> and dipping into the iron range. In most of the
> soils around here, a silver quarter will give an
> iron signal at about 7 inches on a machine like
> the CTX or eTrac and stock coils. You will only
> get a textbook silver signal at depths between 0
> and 4 to 4.5 inches...and from 5 to 6.5 inches,
> the ID is skewed all over the screen before
> finally disappearing as an iron signal.

I believe you're pointing out the limitations of VLF detectors, not criticizing discrimination. Assuming you use a pulse induction machine in your soil, I presume you'd rather have a pulse machine with discrimination than a beep and dig machine.

Discrimination and flaws or limitations as far as Vlf detectors go,,IMO very related and intertwined.

Anyone been paying attention to my recent post involving Deus.

I will bet the farm on this,,,,take either a CTX or a Etrac,,,,you hunt a few sites hard and dig every nonferrous target using ferrous line 27 as your cutoff,,,,then raise ferrous cutoff to say 32 and rehunt site,,,digging every signal that pops.

Sure using the latter will definitely get you some iron,,,but will any nonferrous targets get pulled by doing??? I say yes.

And just my opinion here,,,some of these additionally disovered nonferrous targets,,some may be deep,,some may be more masked,,,and here is another thing--- some targets just due to how the detector is programmed,,,,the lower disc may sneak a few of these out.

For example,,,I know now for sure,,,Deus likes round,,and round with holes in the middle-- even ferrous objects like this,,,,it doesn't like so much irregular shaped, porous surface or cylindrical shaped objects like for example a thimble,,,,,meaning I get much better quality tone,,sometimes even longer tone,,,on coin shaped items vs these others,,,,,which means to actually get equivalently deep on these targets with Deus,,and even unmask them,,,,,disc settings must be altered it seems to alert me to them.

And IMO having a digitally setup up disc option,,with micro adjustability --- this is key.

Much rather have the micro adjustability vs a knob job for disc setting.

Bayard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Tn Wrote:
>
> > This is what happens in the soil here. It's
> not
> > just low conductors that do it, it is high
> > conductors as well. At some places here, you
> can
> > put a coin as large as a silver quarter in the
> > ground and it will be giving an all iron signal.
>
> > The severity of the soil dictates how soon this
> > transition occurs. In some places I've seen
> > things at just 4 inches start to give low
> readings
> > and dipping into the iron range. In most of
> the
> > soils around here, a silver quarter will give
> an
> > iron signal at about 7 inches on a machine like
> > the CTX or eTrac and stock coils. You will
> only
> > get a textbook silver signal at depths between
> 0
> > and 4 to 4.5 inches...and from 5 to 6.5 inches,
> > the ID is skewed all over the screen before
> > finally disappearing as an iron signal.
>
> I believe you're pointing out the limitations of
> VLF detectors, not criticizing discrimination.
> Assuming you use a pulse induction machine in your
> soil, I presume you'd rather have a pulse machine
> with discrimination than a beep and dig machine.

I believe you aren't getting what we are saying. The discrimination part of the TID equation is intertwined. Label it however you wish, but there are too many variables in the field to trust TID numbers and any time discrimination is used, you are leaving stuff in the ground either due to depth or masking...whether that be from iron or trash targets or ground minerals.

This was the whole concept behind NASA Tom's CZ enhancement. After a good bit of testing, you will find the same thing they did back then...a lot of coins, such as older or corroded indian head cents, 3 cent pieces, half dimes, etc will land in the pull tab range of most detectors. For those only going after high number textbook coin signals and ID...they were and are leaving those in the ground. That is the risk of using discrimination and ID. By using disc and knocking out pull tabs, you are most certainly knocking out those coins that fall within that range.

The point of this thread is as Daniel TN is saying. TID and DISC are intertwined and if the TID is incorrect, how can you discriminate the proper TID out? Therefore it IS useless in that context(other contexts as well perhaps). This isn't an "anti-discrimination" debate or discrimination hate thread. I like discrimination. I am sharing some information I experienced. Take from it what you will.

In a nutshell that's why those relic hunters that carry a shovel dig some oddball finds such a gold watches, gold rings and rare oddball coins as if it beeps they dig with no problems as areas are isolated...No disc or TID and I would be back to bass fishing among other hobbies as most of the other guys on the forum....as I don't have that luxury...