Be careful what you wish for - you might just get it!

Lots of folks on this forum have reasonably expressed their impatience at the lack of any major innovation by the established MD manufacturers. We are still buying models which have been on the market for years, if not decades. We do this because newer designs are mostly just marginal refinements of the same basic VLF IB platforms. Imptovements in user interface, signal processing and ergonomics don't alter the fact that VLF single frequency detector technology has "hit a wall" and can't be taken to truly new levels.

Minelab, Whites and Fisher have all developed simultaneous multi-frequency machines, but here again, these designs seem not to be capable of further development.

Minelab's GPZ is truly new, but it seems to require a level of circuit sophistication and complexity (plus ML's pricing strategies) that make it unlikely to be developed into any mass-market machine - and of course, it doesn't offer discrimination.

But what if someone, starting with a clean sheet of paper were to perfect a machine which gave depth like the very best multi frequency machines, excellent target ID to full depth, was totally self regulating in coping with mineralization and hot rocks ---- and cost under $1500. What if this company went on to develop a whole line of detectors using this revolutionary technology and produced them in the hundreds of thousands a year?

Ever try to sell a BFO detector or a TR one - not much market.

We might not like the brave new world I'm describing.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

There are people who would still find fault with that machine and bitch about it on the forums ad naseum.

Except for the fresh drops (like in the water), we have a hobby of declining returns even without a newer better magicbox. Sure, there are still plenty of great undiscovered spots and its damn hard to swing a coil over every square inch of the planet but every treasure found is one more that isn't out there to find. Maybe that's why you see a rush to buy the latest greatest machine regardless of the cost. "Gotta get an edge on the competition!"

((btw, with the prices that people pay for the latest greatest, 1500 is bordering on Fantasyland! ><)



.

Food for thought for sure. The new one would make all others obsolete...in a sense. There would be some niche markets that would still want the "vintage" vlfs but you are right for the most part. Great post.

Well,,
Whichever manufacturer looks at the big picture,, when it comes to metal detectors,,,,weight, performance, ease to operate to get near max to max performance, handles EMI above average, offers good warranty and support, offers some ammenties ( useful) ,,, when this happens,,and selling price can be made to be competitive with competition-- look out.

We are seeing some of this from a few manufacturers already,,,I expect to see more from them too.

As far as higher mid to flagship detectors,,,very quiet from a number of manufacturers.

Something else too,,,a manufacturer had better not take too much time designing and engineering new future platforms,,,,the reason is,,if they do take too long,,,there is more likely a chance their new release will become obsolete too fast-- folks will move to the more sophisticated units if worthy.

So as the cogs turn inside the different manufacturers laboratories,,,,we will see hopefully soon if they have been doing their homework and paying attention to the detecting community as a whole.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2016 03:49PM by tnsharpshooter.

The whole spectrum of current machines are just variations on a theme. The recent "innovators" are a case in point - XP's Deus is remarkable only because of it's ergonomics, Nokta/Fors are rolling out new machines at an impressive rare, but good as they are, they are just "baby steps" further along the single freq VLF path. Good machines, but not really anything NEW.

I'm talking about disruption. What the iPhone did to the mobile phone industry. After the iPhone, the entire "feature phone" business disappeared.

Can it be done? Whites has interesting new patents, but who knows if they have anything that works. Garrett seems asleep, but still waters may run deep. Minelab bet the hobbiest market "farm" on the Go Find - it promptly died. XP seems to be having trouble bringing their new Deus (which is not revolutionary) to market. First Texas has a lot of engineers busy in El Paso, led by the legendary Dave Johnson and "herded" by Carl Moreland, surely they haven't given up on multi frequency?

I know where I think the best possibility lies, but who knows. I sold 3 of my detectors in June - I'm down to two and one of those is for sale.

2017 might be a very interesting year.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2016 04:08PM by lytle78.

Just thought of this, if they make a detector too good, it can kill the market entirely. There will be nothing left to find. Maybe there is an "unwritten rule" amongst companies to "drag their feet".

Rick,
If a company releases a new, do it all detector with all the attributes we'd all like to see, no one will need to ever buy another detector. The companies surely don't want to put themselves out of business. Oh, and by the way. I still have way too many detectors and the bottom has dropped out of the used detector market so why don't you help a brother out, come over and buy a few of mine. You're running low!

Some good points by posters....Thinking out loud if they made a unit that would grab 15 inch coins and tell a gold ring from the junk everything would be cleaned out and nothing to find would mean the end of the hobby....also once they sell one its all you will need and companies surely would go bankrupt as no new sales.
On a good point would be some awful good deals on the classifieds on the so called inferior detectors...for talented fellows that know how to use them...

On the subject of gold rings from pulltabs, Tom Slick has done some interesting experiments with the V3i and a Bigfoot coil. I think with multiple frequencies and greatly increased CPU power something might be doable to at least ID plain rings from tabs. Unfortunately, the amount of engineering manhours to come up with something like that is probably a lot more than any sane marketing manager would OK, given the limited size of the potential market.

Now a detector which had depth on all sizes of gold nuggets in any soil - depth comparable to an F75 in all metal in good dirt with no need to worry about ground balance or "tracking out" targets - along with lightning fast recovery and reliable iron rejection - and ignoring hot rocks - would sell by the truckload in Africa and make it's manufacturer a ton of money. That's the detector company's "pot of gold".

Of course the same platform would make an awesome relic machine and with a few bells and whistles added a top end coin machine.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2016 07:46PM by lytle78.

Hi Guys,

Im with Beyonnder Pa and Tom on this. I would like to have in my hot little hand is a beepa that has the capabilities of just finding gold rings, And another for fine gold chains and larger chains with everyting else knocked out. Speciality detectors like different fishing rods and reels for different types of fish, Also make it a bit technical in settings like the v3i to set up which would make the user work at it to get the best results and still keep the manufacturers in business with other lines of detectors they develop,

Its been the same old vlf format for so long with just a small amount of advancements but no real jump in technology,

With the different sizes, kts. and metals mixed with good luck on that gold ring wish.....however gold rings usually weigh much more than the junk that imitates them and perhaps along this line increase the odds of finding one...

This is great post. Things seem like it could be better and when we get there some of the magic is lost and then it goes back full circle. An example would be Apple Music or Spotify. I remember saving money, researching and travelling to buy a new album. It was kind of fun. Although I wanted more music if have to make a decision of what I really wanted. Now for $10 a month I can have literally every single album I ever wanted. I don't find it as awesome as I imagined. If a true "does it all" machine came out I can see a similar thing happen to me. As I wrote this I can foresee perhaps club hunts that limit the machine. Like a hunt that only machines from the 70's etc allowed. That might be kind of fun. Vintage machine hunts. Then it would be more about what's between the ears rather than how advanced a machine is.

Wow, Rick, you are going to be down to one detector? I would have never thunk it.

You must be hearing something when you put your ear down on the track...

Mostly I hear my wife telling me how nice the garage looks.

I do expect to see at least one really different platform in 2017, but that's just me staring into the tea leaves. The only folks who know are paid to protect valuable proprietary information.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mostly I hear my wife telling me how nice the
> garage looks.
>
> I do expect to see at least one really different
> platform in 2017, but that's just me staring into
> the tea leaves. The only folks who know are paid
> to protect valuable proprietary information.


One man's (or woman's) nice is another man's barren and desolate...

Rick, I've read your posts long enough to know you won't be a one detector guy for long.

I compensated by buying a few nice old 22 rifles - Winchester Model 74 semi autos - 1939 (22 short) and 1946 (22 lr) and a model 67 single shot from 1935.

As far as other detectors, I'll probably get one of the Tek 8000's since at $375, they are such a good deal right now. If I get desperate, I'm sure my neighbor Tom Slick can sell me one of his orphans!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2016 03:35AM by lytle78.

Very wise, Rick.

Collectible rifles will only go up in value over time.

Detectors, the opposite direction.

"Nokta/Fors are rolling out new machines at an impressive rare, but good as they are, they are just "baby steps" further along the single freq VLF path. Good machines, but not really anything NEW"

According to testers and users including myself, you are wrong on this point

I believe that for specific applications the Turkish machines are better - perhaps much better. They are not different. Still VLF IB, single frequency detectors - omes which have been optimized to minimize the inherent limitatioms of the basic technical approach.

What we are "wishing for" is the "next big thing". ML's GPZ is an example of this - but it has not yet been developed to have discrimination (but it is clear they are going that direction); and further, it suffers from ML's fixation with "gold plated" pricing.

The real "next big thing" will meet some criteria Keith set out a while back (I'm pretty sure on this forum, but I haven't found the url) Here's Keith S.

'The Next step I feel is going to be Mineral handling..
Depth is stuck it seems..
But how about usable depth..there's a lot of that left..
I by this I mean a detector that calls say a 6 inch silver dime a nail...and the culprit is the mineral..If we can break the Mineral barrier we will see sites almost seem replenished over night..
And have it be able to work the spectrum of conductivity..Gold in the gold fields and Gold on salt water beaches being called Iron right now..
Relics and coins all over the world scanned thousands of times and called iron all of the sudden I.D.'d correctly..It would be GROUND BREAKING No Pun intended!"

It is now clear that single frequency VLF detectors are never going to do this. Hence my characterization of Fors/Nokta's impressive introductions as "baby steps"

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

The Many, the Average and the Few. We all fit into one of these three categories, and I doubt that many on this or other popular Forums are still in the 'Many' category.

'Many' are the very typical 'beginner' or 'novice' folks who maybe saw one of the goofy antics on the TV series promoting Garrett detectors and general how not to behave in you're serious about this great sport. Maybe the saw one or more people hunting a beach while on vacation or the rare times, in these modern days, when they happen to spot someone out hunting a park or playground. This is the group that really doesn't have a clue about metal detecting or an interest in paying much more for a detector than they can afford when cruising Big 5 or Walmart or some other outlet that pushes mainly the bottom-dollar detectors, some made in the USA and many just inferior off-shore products.

Yes, a small number of those who have been enjoying this great sport more than a couple dozen times a year, and doing so for more than two years, might have gone through those 'beginner-stages' when we bought low-end units but managed to put in the time and effort to really learn more about this hobby, where and how to hunt, and finally make a move up to a more function and productive detector model ... or two or more.

I got started in metal detecting in March of '65 after building a metal/mineral locator from a kit. I used better home-built detectors until the summer of '68 when I got a White's Ghostowner BFO in my hands and the rest is history. By then I had advanced and graduated from being one of the Many to take up this sport, and back then when it got its start and rapidly through the '70s and early '80s we saw the greatest surge on interest and activity in the metal detecting hobby. I was no longer one of the 'Many' of tried it with an inferior model and soon lost interest to bowling or fishing or some other sport, no way.

I had advanced my interest and involvement in detecting to be one of the 'Average' people who appreciate detector design and learned to study them more and take on the challenge of learning new features and follow the practical advancement of detectors and search coils so as to benefit from proper selection and enjoy abundant success. I would say that by the mid-to-latter '70s I reached the point were I was then, and now, a member of the 'Few' category. "Few,' in my opinion, applies to those who are very active in detecting, who do research, study different brands and models, acquire all they possibly can, and have devoted themselves to owning and using some of the best detectors they can fond that are the best 'fit' for their particular fields of interest.

I was offered a job at Compass Electronics by then President Ron Mack in June of '87, and this was at a time when we still saw a ,lot of interest in the detecting hobby, but also were addressing some new and coming changes in the business. Ron told me: "The metal detecting industry pretty much peaked by '83 to '86,.." and all manufacturers were facing quite a few challenges to include Compass and other major and minor detector makers. To me it was rather obvious at the time. We started seeing many makers like Gold Mountain, D-Tex, and a few other more well know and better quality brands go out of business and then have a brief revival, but the new owners couldn't make a go of it.

Dozens of minor players like Jetco and Relco and so many others just couldn't offer the newer technology designs we saw hitting the market at a rapid pace by the mid-to-latter '80s that featured VLF Ground Cancelling operation and dressy new things like visual Target ID and audio Tone ID. Yes, I will agree that VLF detectors kind of reached a certain plateau of ';basic' development, but I don't think everything was maxed out. I also know from personal experience of owning and using many of the multi-frequency models and doing in-the-field, side-by-side comparisons, that the MF's are not always such the spectacular performers they are hyped to be.

When Teknetics (the original folks and not the FTP group we see today) brought out their CoinComputer models and got the ball rolling in the industry by producing visual Target ID that soon had Tone ID added in their 'B' versions, the Race was on. It wasn't simply a race to compete with the new features, no, it was a race to try and do so and match the new price tag they came with which was much higher than most detectors had been at that time.

We saw the top dollar models in a product line priced from $895 on up and that has continued with many makers, and today makes 33 years, a third of a century, that we have seen inflated prices on models in many different product catalogs and we are talking rather simple electronic devices. Compare most metal detectors with most computers and other modern high-tech electronic produces and I think you will notice they are, in comparison, over-priced. We still see it from many companies, such as the Minelab FBS series of models or the White's Spectra series. We can even include the top-dollar Teknetics T2 LTD and Fisher F75 Ltd. in this pricy category.

I know for a fact, and that means from putting the detectors to use in some tough hunting environments, that the best all-purpose detector in White's line-up today is the MXT All-Pro. It has been a very good general-purpose detector since it was introduced as an upgraded version of the original MXT, and it was a very nice performing model when it sold with the 950 or even better the 9" 'spider' Concentric coils, or had their 6½" Concentric mounted for trashier places. When they added the 'All' sticker they also changed to the terrible performing 10" D2 DD coil, but the MSRP remained $899.95 which was reasonable compared with the higher-cost offerings from other top-end detector makers .... but, some in the industry have seen the light.

I'll give a nod to Garrett Metal Detectors who, years ago, made a profound change in their line-up by first targeting the lower-cost models end with their Ace series. They had been struggling and made some engineering moves, not to mention a change in configuration and color scheme, and they certainly have captured that segment of the market. Then, to be and stay more competitive as they thinned out the GTA series they brought us the AT Pro. A useful and waterproof detector that does offer some adjustment features to compete with the MXT Pro/All-Pro, but the MSRP is $200 less! That was followed by the AT Gold, primarily promoted for Gold Nugget Hunting, which the MXT series is supposed to do well, but Garrett made sure it came fitted with a more logical or practical (aka useful) search coil standard, and the MSRP is $799.95, still $100 less than the MXT All-Pro.

Foreign to the US makers, such as XP and Minelab have built a notable presence here, and I have to add the Turkish-made Nokta FORS series and Makro Racer series as also being way ahead of the game. They have introduced several models in both labels that are extremely well priced and very competitive, and the best part is they listen, stay abreast of the consumer input, produce durable detector that also seem to have stepped up the performance level for the so-called single-frequency VLF detector group.

Today, and for quite some time now, we have seen some growth in the industry, but not like it was. There are no popular magazines on news racks in many stores as there were decades ago. The number of active metal detecting clubs have seriously declined in number and those that are stable usually have a little smaller active member base than they once had. There are far fewer local dealers to help promote the products and the hobby, and sadly many of the dealers I see at GPAA shows or in some retail outlets don't really know much about metal detectors they sell, and many don't even detect.

I believe that with the decline in clubs and regional activity, for the average hobbyists, combined with so many locals banning metal detecting or requiring permits to hunt local parks and schools, we are seeing and will continue to see a decline in the metal detecting industry. There are smaller numbers of the 'many' group who try it, and the 'Average' group will remain but I feel their numbers will be fewer and the period of time they stay interested in detecting will not be as long as it has been. There's just less to find in typical hunting sites and certainly not the amount of silver coins or older coins to capture their interest.

That leaves it up to the 'Few' category to keep more activity happening in this great sport, and I think a good sized portion of this group, who have been at it for quite a while, are also aging and being more selective and not easily fooled by razz-ma-tazz marketing hype. Yes, some will pay more for high-dollar detectors, but I don't see the industry headed that way. Multi-frequency? Yes, there is a place for a good model, but I believe the best offering in that category is one with selectable operating frequencies, not a BBS or FBS approach, and I am referring to the bulk of the 'Few' category as well as some of the 'Average' guys and gals who might be close to advancing in group/category status.

It's a matter of $$$4 & ¢¢¢, or really dollars and Sense ... the common sense for manufacturers who realize the limited market that is out there and who have learned, or are going to learn, how to address the consumers wishes with quality designs and top-performing detectors, and make practical advancements while realizing the budget of both their business as well as the end consumer base.

I don't believe we are going to see any earth-shattering top-end detector in the future that will provide ample Simplicity with Functional adjustment features and end Performance and be reasonably priced for the bulk of the avid detectors who are out there. We have great detectors to pick from now and they will continue to work well into the future, and I suspect that a selectable multi-frequency will show up at an affordable price to appeal to many serious users. Nothing crazy priced. Just my opinions, and now I don't have time to proof read this as I am headed out detecting a new site.

Happy Hunting to All. ... and Please, pardon any typos.

Monte

Solid post Monte. I will agree that this is a declining sport. I, as one of the "few", also think that we need to protect the hobby from dying out too early. The ethical standards need to be reinforced both to the many, AND, the average.

Metal detector manufacturers(MDM), still have a few tricks up their sleeve that they can make work. Simultaneous multi-frequency(this is somewhat different then BBS and FBS), pi/vlf hybrid, a true pi discrimination model and other innovations. The problem is time. They need to get these out BEFORE, the finds, and the interest, runs out.

I do understand that if they bring out the big guns too early, it would kill the market. But, I read four different forums everyday and I can tell you from what I have read, that this time period right now, is a "silver age" of detecting that is heading toward bronze. If MDM do not bring these new innovations to the general market with-in the next two years, I feel that the hobby will be in a downward spiral that can never be restored and with the hobby being pushed more toward the legislated side with fines and such, you can hand out ML GPZ's all day long and there will be no takers..

Want to make better finds?

The new machines make you feel better?, then go it, it's your money

It's all about LOCATION 1st....Next of importance would be Operator skill level and knowing your metal detector of choice like the back of your hand.........

I'm using 30 year old, outdated VLF machines with success, like my Toltec 100, IDX Pro modified or 5900 CB etc. I have had more modern machines but the finds rate just was not there. I did break down and buy an MX5 and am pleased with it's performance, in single tone with iron notched out, it reminds me of my Toltec 100 performance, only difference being lighter in weight and it's digital makeup.

My two remaining detectors are a TDI with Reg Sniff's mods and an IDX Pro with the Mr. B mods. I'm keeping the TDI just because it was a pein in the butt to get hold of and probably keeping the IDX because I have a bigfoot and a goldfoot coil for it and I love the coils. Also, it's coin id is rock solid.

I might get one of the tek 8000 on the closeout because $375 for a new detector with 5 year warranty is a stupidly good deal.

Other than that, I will probably hold my fire for a year or so and hope that what I wish for will materialize. Besides, after selling off a dozen or so detectors, my wife is being much nicer to me. She comes from a long lime of marksmen from North Norway - hunters on the arctic ice - of seals, walrus, polar bear, etc. (not to mention whales, of course) so the rifles don't confuse her like all the metal detectors did.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2016 05:10PM by lytle78.

Well,

I think the item that gets overlooked a lot when it comes to newer detectors is efficiciency,,,and how this relates to time.

Time is something we can't buy,,put in a bottle and reserve for later use.

Time is important,,,and the more time a person can actually use their detector with settings to suit the ground and site they are hunting,,the better-- should on average produce more finds.

And this goes for beginners all the way to the much more experienced.

Will some of the older detectors still make worthy finds??? You bet.

But when you consider things like coil sweep speed, detector's ability to separate ( to different degrees) with faster sweep speeds,, and a detector's ability to get closer to peak depth ( for detector in question) ,,, all these things add up in the end,,,and over a period of several years--- finds pouches should reflect.

Would it be a fair statement to say,,,during the last 8 years or less,,,some detectors have come to light that can be taken into places once thought to be too nasty to be productive??? I think so.

And detector ergonomics here also come into play.

Just think,,since the Minelabs bbs, FBS, fbs2 detectors have come to USA,,,how many hours of total possible detecting time has been discarded,,,because the person got tired of all the heavier weight,,,and overall finds numbers could/ would likely to have been even higher.

Overall,,I think detectors are going more towards the user friendly side of the house,,yet still perform well.

The future of detector manufacturing,, it does have its challenges,,but I'm sure at least of few of the manufacturers will meet these challenges.

There are still some things though physics related it seems are impossible to overcome,,or if can be,,extremely small incremental thwarting taking place.

A new detector technology much like FBS or something to this effect may be discovered,,and open a whole new level of detecting performance.

As a whole,,,this world is crawling with talent,,,much brain power is out there,,,and this new discovery may actually be discovered by accident-- it does happen.

One thing is for certain,,with today's world of digital communications,,,when and if a detector is manufacturered and it blows the competition away with depth and or separation--- it won't be kept secret for long.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2016 05:08PM by tnsharpshooter.

Anybody remember that TV series from the 90s called Adventures of Briscoe County Jr? It was a western but one of the subtext's to the show was always looking out for "the next big thing". The forum people remind me of that a lot of times when these topics come up.

I go back to when I was a kid. When we were kids, we all couldn't wait til we turned 16 and could get vehicles to drive. When we hit 16, we could drive but we were restricted on things we could do. So again, we wished we could fast forward to be 18. 18 rolls around and we wish we were 21 so we could do more. Now we are adults and looking back on our child hood...we wish we would have just took the time to enjoy life as kids, and not wished our childhood away. Maybe we'd be better off just living in the moment and enjoy what we have before us NOW...instead of wishing and wanting for things in the future. Statistically, by the human lifespan....a lot of us here have more years behind us than we do ahead of us.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody remember that TV series from the 90s
> called Adventures of Briscoe County Jr? It was a
> western but one of the subtext's to the show was
> always looking out for "the next big thing". The
> forum people remind me of that a lot of times when
> these topics come up.
>
> I go back to when I was a kid. When we were kids,
> we all couldn't wait til we turned 16 and could
> get vehicles to drive. When we hit 16, we could
> drive but we were restricted on things we could
> do. So again, we wished we could fast forward to
> be 18. 18 rolls around and we wish we were 21 so
> we could do more. Now we are adults and looking
> back on our child hood...we wish we would have
> just took the time to enjoy life as kids, and not
> wished our childhood away. Maybe we'd be better
> off just living in the moment and enjoy what we
> have before us NOW...instead of wishing and
> wanting for things in the future. Statistically,
> by the human lifespan....a lot of us here have
> more years behind us than we do ahead of us.


Amen to that!----Moral of the story---"don't wish your life away" (ON ANYTHING)----77 yrs. of experience talking here!

Dang Daniel you got Me depressed now as I have more behind then ahead!

I don't know about the declining interest thing....Here where I work a lot of people have shown an interest in the hobby and many have purchased metal detectors based upon my show and tell. Ocassionally some of us here at work that bought metal detectors after visiting with me will get together and go beeping.

So I don't really see any declining interest. Maybe more, but not less.

I do notice the old timers talk this way all the time about the hobby, though.


HH
Mike

One thing Monte brought up was that metal detectors are costlier than other electronics which is the case but other electronics are sold by thousands to one so metal detector makers and dealers don't have the volume to make a profit with.. As far as machines and depth which I harp on a lot because in the South East they do sink fast.. But after a bonehead ran over my mailbox a couple of a days ago i dug a two foot hole with my post hole digger to set a new pole,I don't want to dig two foot holes with a digger for a coin. What I would like to see is accurate I.D to 12" along with fantastic separation.. That's enough for me.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

Beyonder-Pa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just thought of this, if they make a detector too
> good, it can kill the market entirely. There will
> be nothing left to find. Maybe there is an
> "unwritten rule" amongst companies to "drag their
> feet".


i doubt this! biggest issue is the amount of ferrous aluminum trash everywhere!
trying to "see" through this crap is really tough..separation remains a tough "nut" to crack,
regardless of "methodology!"

(h.h.!)
j.t.