Fisher CZ3D - Gold Rings

To me, the definition of notch is to eliminate a conductive range that is in between a range higher AND lower. On the analog CZ's the discrimination setting eliminates conductive ranges on a linear basis. So the farther you go up the range, the more conductive ranges are eliminated. Notice I state conductive ranges...not TARGETS.

So if the analog CZ3D has a conductive range that is different than other detectors and eliminates beaver tails in that range while still detecting foil, which is a higher range on the CZ and hence a higher discrimination setting, the discrimination is still linear and this is not notching in my opinion. Remember, even though the laws of physics may have foil as a lower conductivity range than beaver tails, it's how the unit is programmed to ID and tone on that range and where it fits in the scheme of things discrimination wise is in the design of the unit. Any target range can be programmed to ID as anything. Shoot...they could have made iron a high tone.

I guess it's all in the definition of how one thinks of notching.

I would ask tabman to see if his CZ can 'notch out' the foil conductivity range of targets and still detect targets in the beaver tail range AND the square tab range. If he can, he does have one special CZ3D.

Hey tabman...you know I am just bustin em !!!

Ain't it cool the CZ has a conductivity range different than other units. And the 3D is unique in that not only does it have the low-mid tone for foil it has the enhanced mode for hunting older sites for coin shooting and bringing some of the older coins that would ID as mid tones on the regular CZ's and ID them as high tones....so you can old coin shoot.

Have fun out there and stay safe. And don't forget to dig those high tone nickle signals !!!!

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welgund Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think what Tabman is trying to say is that on
> > all other machines the ring pull will not disc
> out
> > before foil but on the cz it does. Of all my
> > machines, the CTX, Deus, F75, Fors relic, all
> my
> > Tesoros, only my CZ 6a and CZ 5 is capable of
> > that, making it truly unique.
>
> Bingo! I'm accustom to going by the conductivity
> scale from low to high. Nail, foil, nickel, pull
> tab, zinc, dimes etc. On the CZ3D I can eliminate
> (disc out, notch out) beaver tail pull tabs and
> still the be able to detect the lower and higher
> conductors. This is a good thing since most of the
> gold rings are found in the foil range.
>
> tabman

X2 on the bingo again,it is unique in design and sure was by design. Dave J is sharp now and way back then..

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

I think I will take a nap as this is giving Me a headache.
What ever you want to call it hope you do well tabman.

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I will take a nap as this is giving Me a
> headache.
> What ever you want to call it hope you do well
> tabman.

Thanks! I think I'll just keep my thoughts and findings to myself. It's not worth fussing over nothing. I have better things to do, like finding gold rings and silver coins. LOL

Critterhunter has some really good info on gold ring discrimination levels and percentages. It's worth reading.

tabman

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Harold,ILL. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think I will take a nap as this is giving Me
> a
> > headache.
> > What ever you want to call it hope you do well
> > tabman.
>
> Thanks! I think I'll just keep my thoughts and
> findings to myself. It's not worth fussing over
> nothing. I have better things to do, like finding
> gold rings and silver coins. LOL
>
> Critterhunter has some really good info on gold
> ring discrimination levels and percentages. It's
> worth reading.
>
> tabman


Critterhunter was Daniels favorite person!---Right Daniel?? -------Whatever happened to ole Critterhunter?---The last thing I heard was he had a nervous breakdown.-----He did do quite well with his modded Sovereign though.

Critter was a big fan of the Qxt-pro even had a website deadicated to it. Also didn't He create Detecting underground website? Never any traffic over there. I think they have too many sub forums.

D&P -- He knew how to push my button for sure. At one time I would have smiled all the way to jail if I could have met him face to face.

Critter hunter,,,

Like to always play devils advocate,,,or argue with himself,,, or take indefensible positions and try to defend them,,,,so he could type on forums it seems.

A real piece of work.

He was drawn to me like a magnet,,,he figured he was going to have it easy spewing his trash challenging me,,,,backfired on him though.

I enjoy debating his type--- easy pickings!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2016 02:28AM by tnsharpshooter.

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see right now that a video is in order. When I
> set the discrimination knob on #2 (beaver tail
> pull tab reject) the CZ3D is still able to detect
> foil which is lower in conductivity and its still
> able to detect a quarter which is higher in
> conductivity. It's eliminating (notching) a target
> that's in between two others, one with a lower
> conductivity and the other with a higher
> conductivity. Anyone who says that's not possible
> on my CZ3D put your money down.
>
> tabman

tabby! don't you listen to them others!..you definitely
got somethin' special!..what that is i just don't know!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are correct cadman...the discrimination on the
> analog CZ's are linear. So no clue how the tabman
> can notch out pull tabs and still get foil on his
> 3D. Plus, nickles are actually HIGHER on the
> scale. Unless my eyes and mind are going crazy.

I must have a super special CZ3D! LOL I used my Fisher F75DST to get the VDI numbers of each target tested. Dave Johnson and Thomas Dankowski are also special.

Target Order:

Nail - 7
Small Foil Wrapper - 19
Gatorade Sports Bottle Foil Cap - 20
Extra Small 14k Gold Ring - 21
Nickel - 30
Modern Day Coke Can Stay-Tab - 33
Beaver Tail Pull Tab - 38
Clad Quarter - 82

Test Video

tabman

> I must have a super special CZ3D! LOL I used my
> Fisher F75DST to get the VDI numbers of each
> target tested. Dave Johnson and Thomas Dankowski
> are also special.
>
> Target Order:
>
> Nail - 7
> Small Foil Wrapper - 19
> Gatorade Sports Bottle Foil Cap - 20
> Extra Small 14k Gold Ring - 21
> Nickel - 30
> Modern Day Coke Can Stay-Tab - 33
> Beaver Tail Pull Tab - 38
> Clad Quarter - 82
>
> Test Video
>
> tabman

That's the point...you are using target ID's from a totally different unit. So the order of conductivity/discrimination for the F75 is totally different than that of the CZ. I think what most detectorists feel is 'notching' is the ability to discriminate a conductive range below and above other ranges....FOR THAT SPECIFIC UNIT THEY ARE USING. Stating that, the analog CZ's DO NOT have a notch feature. However....the digital CZ's have that capability.

Case in point...the nickle on the F75 is a 30.. below that of the beaver tail on that unit. Yet on the CZ, a nickel is ABOVE the beaver tail in terms of not only where it fits in the discrimination setting, but how it tones ( as a high tone). So the F75 is programmed to have the nickle range of conductivity lower in the scale, the CZ programmed for it to be higher. Same with foil.

You can't compare apples n oranges here. So if you feel your CZ3D is notching out, it is...but based on the order of conductivity of the F75 !!!!

Do me a favor...see if you can 'notch out' nickles on your CZ3D and pick up foil, beaver tails, tabs and dimes. Bet you can pick up dimes...but nothing else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2016 01:52PM by therover61.

I never did say that it could notch out nickels. I said that the CZ3D can eliminate (discriminate, notch out) beaver tail pull tabs. Foil's conductivity is below that of a 'beaver tail pull tab and a nickel's conductivity is below that of a 'beaver tail pull tab. It does what it does, so stop worrying yourself about it!

tabman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2016 02:28PM by tabman.

DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY!

tabman..I am not worrying about it. You quoted me so I wanted to respond back. No worries.

My point is the definition of discrimination, in my view, is different than the definition of notching. In my view notching is a specific discrimination feature independent of the main discrimination feature on a unit. The analog CZ's have a linear discrimination feature that as you move up the scale, eliminates conductivity ranges ( based on how it is programmed) from the discrimination setting on down. The CZ's have a unique way of placing conductivity ranges on it's discrimination scale. Nickles being up higher on the scale and hitting as a high tone, make the CZ what they call a 'nickle magnet'.

Based on my thoughts of what a notching feature is, which is that a unit can eliminate a specific conductivity range below and above other ranges,and is a separate feature independent of the main discrimination feature, the CZ3D does not have a notch feature.

Main discrimination settings on an analog unit and 'notching' are two separate definitions in my book...that's all. Yes...notching is discrimination....but a specific form defined by a lower and upper range of conductivity. The lower floor and upper ceiling of the range to me defines notching.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

End of report on my end. Again...have fun, be safe and remember to dig those high tone nickle signals. That is where a lot of the bigger class rings fall in.

Whatever it does it works great for my purpose. Being able to (delete, discriminate, reject, do away with, silence, eliminate or whatever) beaver tail pull tabs and still be able to detect lower conductor gold rings in the foil range is a brilliant design feature. I'm really blown away with the CZ3D's ability to be able to detect nickels and still be able to reject modern stay-tabs off of coke cans. The sports fields that I have in mind are loaded up with both beaver tail pull tabs and coke stay-tabs. I had to dig hundreds of them before I got my first gold ring from one of those fields. I've dug 3 gold rings off of one of the fields so far. I'm ready to give my CZ3D a crack at it.

tabman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2016 03:53PM by tabman.

Sounds like ya gotter figerred out there tabman, it may look good with an airtest but things change once it is buried in the dirt.

Hombre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like ya gotter figerred out there tabman,
> it may look good with an airtest but things change
> once it is buried in the dirt.

Yeah, Randy I know. Most of my really good finds come from swinging a Tesoro with the discrimination set at nail reject. I'm always looking for a better mouse trap so I won't have to do so much digging. I'm up to 200 silver coins, 6 gold rings (5 of them using a Tesoro), a bunch of silver jewelry and a mountain of clad coins so for this year. I need a break from digging. LOL

tabman

prolific son of a gun aren't ya there tabster!
i would offer that if you really 'scored" that booty already this year,
then you must know what ya talkin' about!..damn fine performance
tabby!..no (b.s.!)

(h.h.!)
j.t.

You are on pace for 400-500 silver coins in a year, tab.

That's truly impressive, WTG

Tabman,

I guess that you can call it NOTCHING. As we all know, the CZ-6/CZ-6a/CZ-5/CZ-3D displays are set up with 7 categories. As you point out, if you look at these categories in standard fashion based on target conductivity, these categories would read in order, IRON (1), FOIL (2), NICKEL (3), PULL TAB (4), SQUARE TAB (5), ZINC PENNY (6) AND COINS (7). But the CZ engineers have the display, and the discrimination knob, set up differently; they read IRON (1), PULL TAB (4), FOIL (2), SQUARE TAB (5), NICKEL (3), ZINC PENNY (6) AND COINS (7). If you increment the discrimination knob to start knocking out each of these groups, you do knock out Pull Tab (4) before foil (2) and square tab (5) before Nickel (3), so yes, there is some sort of 'Notching' going on at least in comparison to other detectors out there.

As I see it, the CZ display is set up for Least Desirable on the Left and Most on the right; at least for coins. If we are looking at this from JUST the Rings perspective, and percentages of rings in each category, I think it is out of order at least according to the distributions I've seen of those who hunt rings.

I've used a number of detectors over the years that tried a variety of Notching schemes. My first was a Teknetics Mark I. It had 2 different methods, either a Notch ACCEPT or a Notch REJECT. If I set the main discrimination low, say around foil, I could then set the detector to Notch REJECT and adjust the Notch REJECT window to knock out a higher conductive pest target like pull tabs. I would then find all targets with a conductivity reading above foil except for the Notch REJECT window I had set to PULL TAB. I could also set the detector for Notch ACCEPT and place my main discrimination setting all the way up to Zinc Penny. Then I could set my Notch ACCEPT Window down lower at Nickels and thus only get a signal on targets above zinc penny and the target in my Notch ACCEPT window, Nickels. I believe the Tesoro Golden and Royal Sabres, both had early versions of this type setup.

The White's Eagle went digital and allowed me to either Notch ACCEPT or REJECT each number on their scale up to 95. The new White's MX Sport has 20 segments that can be ACCEPTED or REJECTED based on operator preferences. The Minelab Explorers and E-tracs ACCEPT or REJECT on their 0-50 conductivity scale in relation to a Ferrous scale as well. And on and on.

I think the genius of the CZ's is the simplicity and thought that went into the 7 out-of-order segments, as you describe, with the 4 audio tones (CZ-3D). It works.

Best of luck in search of those Rings.

Gonebeepin'



BTW, You may already know that many CZ operators run 0 discrimination and use the easy to follow tones and display to walk thru the area they are hunting and dig as they see fit. It helps greatly in sorting rusty nails and iron from good targets.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one more good target before I go.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2016 06:48AM by Gonebeepin'.

Thanks for the info guys. I pretty much know how the CZ3D works from doing a bunch of reading and testing. I'm really impressed with how the CZ3D can 'reject' beaver tail pull tabs and modern day stay-tabs while still being able to 'accept' low conductors like foil and nickels where gold rings reside. I've already figured out that the CZ3D likes iron and it's best to 'accept' iron and circling the target helps. I'm sure with more practice I'll get better at determining what the detector is telling me. I got the CZ3D to use to go back over some of the older sites that I've already detected to see if I can find some older coins that I may have missed. That's what the CZ3D is really designed to do.

Something else that I noticed about the CZ3D, it's doesn't cause a lot of mental fatigue when using it. It's quite calming and relaxing to use. I've already had a 'Detecting Buddy', so the weight and balance of the CZ3D isn't going to be an issue for me. I really like it and it's super easy to use. I tried the hip and chest mount method and I didn't like it at all.

As far as me finding 400-500 silver coins this year, it ain't going to happen, because the second half of the year is mostly summer and it's way too hot and dry for my liking. I'll be extremely lucky to find 300 total silver coins for the year even if I stopped digging in the gold ring conductivity range. I've posted pictures of all my finds on some of the other forums under 'beephead' and 'tabman'. I've been pretty lucky this year.

Again thanks for all the help and suggestions. I've learned a lot from reading what others have to say about their experiences with particular detectors.

tabman

Boy you must have some great virgin spots! My best year in 16 years was I think 130 or something as usually don't count silver. But did first year with Etrac so wanted to see if I could break a 100. Of course everything around here has been pounded to death.

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the info guys. I pretty much know how
> the CZ3D works from doing a bunch of reading and
> testing. I'm really impressed with how the CZ3D
> can 'reject' beaver tail pull tabs and modern day
> stay-tabs while still being able to 'accept' low
> conductors like foil and nickels where gold rings
> reside. I've already figured out that the CZ3D
> likes iron and it's best to 'accept' iron and
> circling the target helps. I'm sure with more
> practice I'll get better at determining what the
> detector is telling me. I got the CZ3D to use to
> go back over some of the older sites that I've
> already detected to see if I can find some older
> coins that I may have missed. That's what the CZ3D
> is really designed to do.
>
> Something else that I noticed about the CZ3D, it's
> doesn't cause a lot of mental fatigue when using
> it. It's quite calming and relaxing to use. I've
> already had a 'Detecting Buddy', so the weight and
> balance of the CZ3D isn't going to be an issue for
> me. I really like it and it's super easy to use. I
> tried the hip and chest mount method and I didn't
> like it at all.
>
> As far as me finding 400-500 silver coins this
> year, it ain't going to happen, because the second
> half of the year is mostly summer and it's way too
> hot and dry for my liking. I'll be extremely lucky
> to find 300 total silver coins for the year even
> if I stopped digging in the gold ring conductivity
> range.


You said it very well, the cz-3d is a very easy and non-fatiguing detector to use.

As to the actual controls, the cz has virtually no learning curve. The learning curve involves learning what the audio is telling you, primarily the difference between good high tone targets and high tone falsing.

That took some time for me, but it does come eventually. As long as I don't push it where it doesn't like to go. It doesn't like heavy trash, and it especially doesn't like heavy iron. If you have a proper 5" coil, you can be successful in heavier junk than with the stock 8". But beyond moderate trash/iron, I go to a different detector.

If you are anything like me, along the way you will get frustrated with the cz-3d love of iron and dig a lot of nails while you learn. But if you stick with it you will learn the false ferrous language.

The big variable is the individual detector. The cz-3d has more variance between good and bad units than any detector I've ever seen. Calibrations can be way out of whack on bad units. And I've seen a difference of over 4" between the hottest/coldest detectors Tom has calibrated.