Got a new MX Sport in today......Somethings not right

khouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If your modulation isn't working right have them
> fix that too? I want to see just one MXS with a
> proper working modulation...


You seem so angry. There is a reason I never buy a new detector unless it's been out on the market at least a year. So many folks are overly concerned with "modulation". So be it. Heck I turn it off.

Get a tried and true detector from another company so you won't be so angry.

Jackpine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&P-OR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PLACE YOUR BETS GENTEMEN!!!!!-------My money is
> on
> > it's a bad coil!
>
> +1

+2

Detectorist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> khouse Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If your modulation isn't working right have
> them
> > fix that too? I want to see just one MXS with a
> > proper working modulation...
>
>
> You seem so angry. There is a reason I never buy a
> new detector unless it's been out on the market at
> least a year. So many folks are overly concerned
> with "modulation". So be it. Heck I turn it off.
>
> Get a tried and true detector from another company
> so you won't be so angry.

Someone has to buy the first ones to see if they are filled with bugs. Then you can reap the rewards of our hard work. If it wasn't for us pushing the issue then the new buyers now would still be opening up their box only to find a cracked screen and a mixed mode audio that can't be used. So on and so on. One of the original issues with professional users was audio modulation. We are used to that. We like the info it gives us. We paid for it. We want it to work.

No different that you buying a new car only to find out the right rear door won't open. Then after taking to your dealer for 9 months trying to get it fixed and they tell you to quit being so angry! You were stupid to buy a new car. You can open the other door and simply slide across the seat so what's the issue?

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2016 09:41AM by khouse.

Quote

When you loose it like that what is the target I.D. showing..

almost sounds like the I.D. reject volume is kicking in as the I.D. switches..

do you have a zone turned down volume wise on it?

sound like the notched area is muted..

Keith

The iD will drop to foil or iron.

reject volume is set to 0

No zones turned down

Not using any notches. This happens even after a reset. Changed the tone to 8 tone but it will do it with 1 tone.

Quote

No different that you buying a new car only to find out the right rear door won't open.

I have to agree. If this is an option (modulation) that it is supposed to come with but that option doesn't work then I think the manufacturer should resolve the issue. If your new car would only go 5 mph top speed and the manufacturer said its not a problem that is just how it works. That would not be acceptable. I know we are only talking about a detector here but I think its the principle of the matter. You know me once the issue gets resolved the chances are I will sell it anyway.....Lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2016 12:31PM by wjs.

Done a bit more testing. Seems like it will do this in all the programs not just coin and jewelry. I did take it out yesterday and it seemed to work ok for shallow coins but couldn't help wonder if I was missing coins in the 6-8 inch mark. We may never know what is causing this but I know whites will take care of me. I just wish they could get the modulation working better as I like to listen for those deep low (volume) sounding hits that alert me to a possible deep old coin.....;o)

Life can be as complex or as simple as we make it, or, in some cases, as 'simple' as an electronic and mechanical design might be.

ANY metal detector make or model released for general consumer purchase should be first well designed and tested for fit and function at the manufacturer's facility, and it is helpful for them to get several sample products into the hands of knowledgeable, avid detector users to further evaluate. Then, take that feed-back and make sure everything is then right for a production run of a finished model.

Furthermore, and this has generally been part of any reputable manufacturer's design agenda for decades, each model to be boxed up for shipping is first assembled, then checked out for proper function and any calibration needs with a factory stock coil that will be supplied with that particular unit. Those workers on the production, assembly and finalization line should check the detector to be assured all the controls and functions work as they should, and that includes checking the visual Target ID and audible Tone ID with test samples, to include typical coins to be found.

This will make sure the detector is working properly, the search coil is working properly and the controls, audio tones and visual display are all up to production standards to be shipped. As a general rule, the detector and factory standard coil assigned to it for testing are then sent down to shipping, together, and that ensures that the specific detector is packaged with the appropriate search coil and that the coil also functions properly as supplied.

Oh, and to be checked out and tested to perform well and provide a factory standard for depth of detection performance, they are calibrated/tested by doing an 'Air Test' which is the most practical way to ensure they can provide the best level of performance since there is no ground mineral factor involved that could hamper performance. It is an 'deal' standard of testing and evaluation.

Thus, when you have some glitch arise, such as the one 'wjs' has described with his 'brand new' fresh production unit, you need to take it seriously. The described annoying behavior is not caused by the search coil, and definitely is not a normal occurrence. It is simply a 'cause-for-concern defect' that is most likely associated with the biggest problem we have today, and that is all the digitally based circuitry design we are dealing with. Far more avenues for mistakes, failures, lack of anticipated performance, or just an annoying, faulty behavior.

When this occurs, like the many other design electronic issues we have read about, or the physical packaging breakage we have seen, it is certainly a very negative reflection on at least this particular model out of the entire model line-up, or it can leave an even greater smudge on the image of an entire company and all products they make. Many decades of detecting and using a very wide-range of models from so many manufacturers, using many components sourced from outside the country, with products assembled both foreign and domesticly, I have never seen or experienced the problems we saw from 'wjs' with his MX Sport.

The real issue here is that we know White's has lost and acquired new engineering staff in the past few years, and at least four CEO's in the past three years, and we have also noted brand new competitive models that have more features than the MXT All-Pro (which I consider to be White's more versatile and best performing model today) and sometimes better in-the-field performance than the MXT All-Pro, but also have a lower MSRP than the MXT All-Pro. All this conflict and change from within, competition from outside, and then we get what appears to be an attractively packaged model at a more reasonable MSRP, only to have seen and experienced so many different mechanical problems as well as terrible problems that have mostly been caused by 'software' and 'programming' in circuitry.

Hey, it's the crazy era of digitally engineered and programmed metal detectors and, unfortunately, we have seen, and currently see it with the MX Sport, that with all the interaction within the digital design, there can be some serious goof-ups in design. Call them goofs or glitches or plain old serious problems, they have caused a lot of us to really question a particular model. Keep in mind, too, that when there are notable errors like we are seeing, they are returned to the factory to have the same initial design engineers who brought us the problems in the initial design, handle them to try and figure out a cause and how to correct it.

I was really hoping all the updates and packaging fixes had been addressed and all worked well now, and that even though White's hasn't figured out how to engineer their own in-house smaller size coil and offers us only one made in Bulgaria, I was on the verge of buying a brand new MX Sport by years-end. Now I am in the camp with those who have serious concerns about the model and the company as a whole, will remain satisfied with the exceptional performance with my current problem-free detector battery, and will just sit back and do a 'wait-and-see' with the hope that things will, eventually, get corrected and future model entroes from them will be well designed, well engineered, completely evaluated, and released to us all in great working order.

Just my personal opinions,

Monte

Yep, I agree with Monte, I thought all is well with the MX-Sport and I have had my concerns ever since the first Video, But like Monte I know my MXT's Well and with my selection of Coils I wonder how can it get any better than this And I just don't see that happening regardless of Brands and the Like, I know I make a fuss about the thing but once learnt there is little else left in the detecting world that has that rock solid Platform of the MXT Series, Designed by Prospectors for Prospectors with Dave J at the Wheel, That is a Lethal Combination and since it's release there are so many coils out there that can have you digging in feet or inches,

I Hope Whites can find the Kryptonite that Ales this machine because although it is not suited for use with larger Coils it has all the right ingredients to become a Giant Killer, I would like to have been there when the testing was done because I feel that Whites has been let down their field testers and Engineers have had their struggles, Bill, Monte and a few others might have been able to convey what was needed at the time and saved Whites all this back and forth tug"O"War ,

Whites is a Fine Institution when it comes to Metal Detecting Technology with first rate Customer service, They will fix this, but this is a whole new issue never seen before, So I would like to hear Whites view on this,

Tom has not been here in a while So if he does come back I urge people not to use the Guy as a whipping post because he is the messenger and he is one of us, We got that part seriously wrong last time and look where that got us,

WJS, I hope your machine gets sorted soon, I know they will be hot to fix this one for ya.

John.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2016 10:33AM by auminesweeper.

Can't be a coil problem IMO. Coils either receive power or cease working. They either xmit and receive or they don't. Faulty wiring would be intermittent and unrelated to increasing signal strength of a non-ferrous coin. Mixed metals are not separated by the coil into different metals - it just 'sees' the eddies in the metal as a whole, which upsets the induction balance of the coil and drives a signal to the processor. Certain alloys are less conductive and will decrease the phase shift - but it is uniform to the alloy, it doesn't change with distance to the coil. An unmixed combination of metals can have varying differences in their conductive abilities which can change the signal strength as the coil moves about, which causes the TID to jump a bit in relation to sweep angle.

But that's not what is happening here. It is likely IMO that the White's team that wrote the machine language code made an error in coding. As the signal amplitude changed with non-ferrous coin approaching the coil the demodulated measured values run through a matrix that 'decides' how to respond - positive or negative. Somewhere in the code there is an error that follows down a wrong path.

It would be like this: you want to capture all responses so you write the logic code like this: IF (X<0 AND X>1) then ding, it's a coin. The coding is no where that simple but the problem is what to do when X is between 0 and 1, as the code fails. The failed code looks like ferrous, which shunts to the ferrous routine and it is disc'd out. It only happens when amplitude values (or some other measurement) falls between the coding cracks.

The only way to 'fix' the problem is to notify White's and have them send you another detector - after they've had a chance to examine the problem and fix the software of course.

White's shouldn't have let something like this happen - it does seem to be a matter of improper QA in their design phase. Testing is the hardest part ... it's easy to be overly confident and not check everything. Assuming it is all good is not a good QA methodology.

john

That's the best reply I've read, sounds very plausible.
If it is the case then would every mxs have the same program fault? if they do then Whites are gona be out of pocket for yet more detector return costs!
There's no doubt Tom at White's has seen this thread, he's not yet posted, maybe their double checking their stock of units for the same problem before he does post.

Definitely something wrong with the unit..

Wonder if there's a way to do a Hard reset...??

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

This new problem aside the real issue I see is that we told them the modulated audio didn't work 9 - 10 months ago. They have had 3 to 4 firmware upgrades and one stop in production to fix issues and yet the modulated audio still doesn't work. What does this say? To me it says they don't know how to fix their own creation. The way I see it is they will have to start from the ground up and change out the whole guts of the machine because they can't get the bugs out of this one.

We have a local Taco Bell that has been in the same place for around 25 years. They recently tore it down and built a new one right in the same spot. I asked the manager why didn't they remodel? She said that they had an infestation of Roaches that they couldn't get rid of so...........

To : Detectorist. I am not an angry guy by nature. But Yes, I am a little angry over this whole mess. Not so much that I bought two MXSports for myself that didn't work correct. It is the fact as a Whites dealer I drop shipped three MXSports to customers when they first hit my distributor. These are people that trust me. None of us knew at the time that all these issues were wide spread. Actually if the truth be known I am confident now that every MXS is not working correctly. Yes they are finding stuff as Whites has said. So does my Dog. Anyway within 30 minutes of testing my MXS I contacted Whites in Sweet Home. I was told that no one else was complaining and it must be that my ground was too neutral and/or I wasn't running it right. After I knew others had an issue I contacted my customers and told them all to send the machines in for service. I know one of my customers sent his in 4 times!

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

khouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This new problem aside the real issue I see is
> that we told them the modulated audio didn't work
> 9 - 10 months ago. They have had 3 to 4 firmware
> upgrades and one stop in production to fix issues
> and yet the modulated audio still doesn't work.
> What does this say? To me it says they don't know
> how to fix their own creation. The way I see it
> is they will have to start from the ground up and
> change out the whole guts of the machine because
> they can't get the bugs out of this one.
>
> We have a local Taco Bell that has been in the
> same place for around 25 years. They recently tore
> it down and built a new one right in the same
> spot. I asked the manager why didn't they
> remodel? She said that they had an infestation of
> Roaches that they couldn't get rid of
> so...........
>
> To : Detectorist. I am not an angry guy by
> nature. But Yes, I am a little angry over this
> whole mess. Not so much that I bought two
> MXSports for myself that didn't work correct. It
> is the fact as a Whites dealer I drop shipped
> three MXSports to customers when they first hit my
> distributor. These are people that trust me.
> None of us knew at the time that all these issues
> were wide spread. Actually if the truth be known I
> am confident now that every MXS is not working
> correctly. Yes they are finding stuff as Whites
> has said. So does my Dog. Anyway within 30
> minutes of testing my MXS I contacted Whites in
> Sweet Home. I was told that no one else was
> complaining and it must be that my ground was too
> neutral and/or I wasn't running it right. After I
> knew others had an issue I contacted my customers
> and told them all to send the machines in for
> service. I know one of my customers sent his in 4
> times!

You still have your MX Sport?

Detectorist Wrote:

>
> You still have your MX Sport?
No Sir - I do not.

Digital detectors need solid software. There is a reason why the Chinese so far have either pirate rip-offs or junk - and why Tesoro is (sadly) stuck in the last century.

Development of a new digital detector platform is a task so complex that it strains the resources of a small business - and face it - our manufacturers of detectors are all small businesses.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

I hope whites gets this machine figured out 110% asap. If they get it right I'd love to get one for fresh water lake hunting until then the AT pro/Excal are my lake machines, and I hear there's an AT pro 2 in the works. Come on whites don't let us down. Get the MX sport running 110%. Then build that waterproof TDI pro!


John

John ('Johnnyanglo') and Rick ('lytle78' ) you are correct and that is what I referenced as the main problem in my post above ... it is in this darned modern digital circuitry technology that involves a bunch of software 'programming' and way too many functions interact to make some fixes not very 'simple.'


Kenny (khouse)

Quote
Kenny:
This new problem aside the real issue I see is that we told them the modulated audio didn't work 9 - 10 months ago.
They have had 3 to 4 firmware upgrades and one stop in production to fix issues and yet the modulated audio still doesn't work.
What does this say? To me it says they don't know how to fix their own creation. The way I see it is they will have to start from the
ground up and change out the whole guts of the machine because they can't get the bugs out of this one.

The Vision, that morphed through many revisions and the associated issues they had with the terrible 10" D2 Coil released with it was a real headache. The Tone glitch on the MX5 was a simple one because the prototype they worked with checked out just fine, but prior to production they added one resister to try and help something, instability I think I recall, but that one resister was the cause of the tone issue and a simple fix.

Quote
To : Detectorist.
I am not an angry guy by nature. But Yes, I am a little angry over this whole mess. Not so much that I bought two MXSports for myself
that didn't work correct. It is the fact as a Whites dealer I drop shipped three MXSports to customers when they first hit my distributor.
These are people that trust me. None of us knew at the time that all these issues were wide spread. Actually if the truth be known I am
confident now that every MXS is not working correctly. Yes they are finding stuff as Whites has said. So does my Dog. Anyway within 30 minutes
of testing my MXS I contacted Whites in Sweet Home. I was told that no one else was complaining and it must be that my ground was too neutral
and/or I wasn't running it right. After I knew others had an issue I contacted my customers and told them all to send the machines in for service.
I know one of my customers sent his in 4 times!

The MX Sport (and pardon me folks for not abbreviating it to MXS because they could some out with newer entries like an MX Supreme or MX Super-Charged, or MX Swashbuckler to denote the waterproofing, and then there would be too many 'S' variants) has had multiple problems with cracks and breaks in the mechanical design, and too many problems, with supposed fixes, in the circuitry for way too long. Performance wasn't there to begin with, and we keep seeing new glitches unrelated to prior issues. A rush-to-market with a release that was too soon and without sufficient outside product evaluation and input.

And the problem doesn't stop at just having a detector that doesn't work right, but having consumers who have ended up with a terrible working new detector, and some have experienced long repair delays and/or multiple trips in for repair, or new issues discovered on returned units.

Then we take the problems one more giant step, and that includes people like you, a White's Dealer (not sure of you still are) because these continued problems can create angry customers for you, or even a loss of prior customers who now lose faith in you, even if nothing was your fault. Plus it cuts in on your potential income because you can't in good faith, promote a terrible working detector model.

I know I don't plan to buy an MX Sport now because it sure doesn't seem like they have everything figured out and repaired yet. And if we ever get to the point where we see new production runs that appear to be working as they should and were intended, then, if I am still interested in one, I would make a drive to the White's factory and buy one fresh from stock. No buying old-stock many dealers have or will have, and most definitely there will NOT be a used MX Sport on my purchase list.

Monte

Monte, that's why I've always kept my Whites 5900 and 6000 XL Pro. They are still working for me. I did go full digital recently and bought an XP Deus. So far so good.

Monte, I am currently still a Whites dealer. I was holding on to some faith that the MXSport would be the machine they told us it was. However I feel now it will never be. I hope when they re vamp this platform they don't forget that as with the competition they add more adjustable iron resolution. Their main target machine has 40. This is one of the main reasons the Atpro has going for it and I believe Whites dropped the ball here as well in other areas. Plus the Atpro's modulation works as it should. I am also saddened to see the smooth running M6 dropped from the line up as well.

I will wait for the next offering from Whites will be if any?

Kenny
[www.youtube.com]

Seems like the MXS was released too early. I understand that some units will slip through the cracks, but the overall picture I am getting, as a consumer, is that the testing and bug elimination process failed to be completed or was not done properly. I had high hopes for this unit, maybe in another year I will look at it again.

WJS, that unit you have there looks like it needs service. This looks to me like it could be software related. Good luck!

They just need to hire me and Kenny....lol We will put them through a torture test and try ever setting and combination of settings they have plus take them to the nastiest places to see how they operate. And the most important thing.....Give them some real and honest feedback, not just tickle their ears and kiss up to them for more freebies.

I PM'd the OP. In testing a machine off the assembly line I was not able to reproduce the quarter disappearing at 6-7". Never seen that one before...

I will +3 (or is it 4 now) the coil.

The actual electronics (PCB/firmware) in the pod either work or don't. The coil is a very precise system made up of two different windings. Each loop is tuned at the factory and tested before sending out. Something very specific like what I saw in the video would be hard to catch in a bench test, but we can look at the coil testing procedures here to account for this kind of behavior. I haven't heard about this problem before, and haven't been able to reproduce it on any machines at the factory. But the video is enough to show it is a problem on OP's machine.

The fastest way to narrow the problem down would be send OP a new coil and see if the issue persists. I got one in hand I can send out right now, waiting to hear back via phone call to see next steps.

Hey wjs, it's Monday and I was wondering if you contacted White's and what they told you?

Also, have you posted this issue on the White's Forum?

tboykin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I PM'd the OP. In testing a machine off the
> assembly line I was not able to reproduce the
> quarter disappearing at 6-7". Never seen that one
> before...
>
> I will +3 (or is it 4 now) the coil.
>
> The actual electronics (PCB/firmware) in the pod
> either work or don't. The coil is a very precise
> system made up of two different windings. Each
> loop is tuned at the factory and tested before
> sending out. Something very specific like what I
> saw in the video would be hard to catch in a bench
> test, but we can look at the coil testing
> procedures here to account for this kind of
> behavior. I haven't heard about this problem
> before, and haven't been able to reproduce it on
> any machines at the factory. But the video is
> enough to show it is a problem on OP's machine.
>
> The fastest way to narrow the problem down would
> be send OP a new coil and see if the issue
> persists. I got one in hand I can send out right
> now, waiting to hear back via phone call to see
> next steps.

Well done Tomo for jumping in and helping out, Good Man.

John.

Quote

Hey wjs, it's Monday and I was wondering if you contacted White's and what they told you?

Also, have you posted this issue on the White's Forum?

I contacted Mary, they are sending me a new unit and a return label for the old one. I knew they would take care of me. They still have the best customer service......;o)

wjs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They just need to hire me and Kenny....lol We
> will put them through a torture test and try ever
> setting and combination of settings they have plus
> take them to the nastiest places to see how they
> operate. And the most important thing.....Give
> them some real and honest feedback, not just
> tickle their ears and kiss up to them for more
> freebies.


Speak your mind Bill & stop beatin around the bush!!!!!!

Its one thing to be a great software engineer there are a lot of them out there, but its a rare thing to be a software engineer with a very good background in actual detecting and what is required to build an outstanding machine. Follow the trail of outstanding detectors and who built them.