frost theory

FROST THEORY, [www.youtube.com] Could this be so....? To me it seems the E-trac is no different dept wise to a CZ-3d..(he's talking 7-8 inches for a coin...)

I've wondered about that too. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has lived in the frost belt and had a test garden for many years. Anyone see an improvement in target signal strength while using the same detector over a certain period of time?

I have a similar yet slightly different theory that yields the results he and many others have observed. I've posted this several times over the years previously when it comes up. I think the frost "fractures" the halos of masking iron, essentially making them signicantly "smaller" and less apt to hide the good target. I also think this effect (minimal masking) is at it's utmost prime when the ground is still quite moist from the spring thaws but not sloppy any more. As time goes on then, these offending ferrous halos grow back together, again making nearby good targets much harder if not impossible to hear. I'm choosing to reply to this post because I just saw graphic evidence of this phenomenon again just today. I dug six silver coins in an hour in (personally) pounded areas and the silver was so easy to hear, a caveman could have recovered them. I mean they were stupid easy loud!! The first few I even double checked with all three detectors I had with me.....a Gold Bug SE with 11" DD, Omega with 11" DD, and an E-Trac. ALL of them heard these silver targets and they were all between 7 and 10" deep. I always dig the wheats in this spot because they usually are early and I like my chances on some of the early key dates but I was hearing so many of them, (again this is a site that I too usually can't hear a good higher conductive target by early summer) that I was skipping them to concentrate on the silver signature targets. So you might still be thinking "well if the frost pushed them up enough, all of them could and should hear them", right? Here's the catch......upon covering the holes and rechecking, Over ALL of the replaced plugs and off to at least one side where the coins came out of, the holes had large nulling iron present. EVERY spring that we've had a hard freeze and I hunt the first thaw in the slop, then in the moist ground a few days later, then in the moist spring rains, then the summer drier ground, only the second situation has yeilded these numbers of silver (and copper) counts to this degree and all those targets over all those years that were recovered had iron in and or closely adjacent to where I heard the good stuff. It ain't depth...it's masking. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

A bit too hard to speculate. They could have just simply been missed. Frozen moisture (vs wet dirt)......can make a difference.

Some claim metal objects can have varying electrical charges.
Like one day a low charge, the next a better charge.
But the frost theory doesn't apply here since I am too far
South for much of that to happen.
I agree however there is something going on from day to day.
Even in the long past age of high frq. TRs, some days no signal then
on another occasion, bam, a good strong signal.
Whatever is happening, it could cause one detector to look bad
and another to look good to a specific user if he isn't aware of changes.
What about the issue of atmospheric emi.
Does emi play a role in ability of detection?

Very interesting question. I don't think man-made EMI penetrates the ground to any significant degree, but natural radiation/emanations????????
Any of you scientists want to venture an answer???

Yes, EMI plays a major role. Not so much with the target in the ground; but, rather......reducing the performance of the detector. I posted a fairly comprehensive write-up on this subject in the thread: Rcpt Ack of F75 LTD Prototype.

There is no doubt that there is day to day, or more accurately, even hour to hour variation with fringe in-ground target responses. I've even made the effort (sucessfully) to prove this to doubting locals by hunting (usually) early morning at sites all of us were very familiar with, knowing the typical quality of remaining target responses and depths, flagging marginal fringe targets and then checking them later in the day. Virtually without fail, these targets would "vanish" or be relegated to a ferrous only signature when rotating 360. I've even taken the time to keep checking some of these targets every few minutes and actually heard them deteriorate to nothingness virtually in real time. This immediate post freeze thing is different from that.

Ah, then the question I have had for a long time is does
the sun play a role in whether conditions are optimum or not?
Then another one is wind, does it have any influence?
Are these 2 vehicles for emi?

But the Steve (MS) sun theory along with Brad's experience is intriuging. I am thinking neutrinos and other sun dependent sub-atomic particles. I agree with Tom's EMI answer, but Brad's pre-sun experience, although anecdotal, still makes me wonder. Questions like these are what further our development.
Alas, we will probably not get a definitive answer, but its a hell of a interesting theory.

I believe the sun definitely does come into play, especially the more direct it is. In the summer, early morning is far better to hear the deep fringe and or ferrous masked targets than late morning/mid-day. Not nearly as critical in late winter/early spring. To be honest, I've never even considered wind.

Could the heat of the Sun cause a distortion (expansion) of the soil molecules thus affecting depth?

Maybe I've never mentioned this before.......and now would be a good time.

Here in Florida...........targets are a fair amount deeper in the Summer vs Winter. This is a tropical State. A LOT of rain in the summer.....and fairly dry in the winter. Sooooo: In the summer......with all of the rains..... the dirt is MUCH more 'wet'; subsequently 'swollen'. The deeper the target.......the larger the differential of 'swollen' soil ABOVE the target.........making it a even deeper target. In the winter......the ground is dehydrated..........into a much more 'compact' matrix. Subsequently, the targets are more shallow. If you have a one-inch high shot-glass full of dry oatmeal.................then you add some water...............and WOW! You now have a few inches of (saturated) oatmeal.
Interesting how this 'dynamic' world works.

On a similar line: I have (now) eleven sites/locations around the State of Florida....of which......I have at least one unrecovered 'real' real-world target. They are all nearly 'threshold/fringe' targets. There are days when they can NOT be detected at all.....under any circumstance. There are days where they ID as iron. Days where they ID (properly) as non-ferrous. And days where the ID is running the entire spectrum of conductivity. And this is in inert dirt Florida.

Sub-detected EMI poses UNSUSPECTING err!

Gee........and before I starting reading this forum all I thought detecting entailed was depth and adjusting the machine to achieve that...lol

In the world of ham radio solar "flare ups" or "sun spots" play a sometimes critical role in radio reception. While I personally have always considered these events to be something that happens above the ground, it is possible that the sun's energy penetrates the ground and affects the targets that we seek. EMI as a result of these "flare ups" is probably also increased. We know the sun spots are a real thing because we have experienced them in radio operation but I don't have any real data or science as to its effect on the ground. John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 03:15AM by RiverJohn.

......and Solar flares are on eleven-year cycles.

TD, Ever since I became aware of this by hunting almost every day for several seasons years ago, I've wanted to buy the instrumentation in order to better coorelate the causes and effects of optimal target aquisition. Procrastination and the savoring of a good mystery has kept me from doing so.

You'll enjoy the flares on HF.

I wish I had a great HF rig!! Another "victim" of my procrastination!!

The frost moves things up in the ground ie rocks.I'm sure it lifts coins also.No signals from any coins in my test garden as there is now 59 inches of snow on top of it.

I live in the Southern Tier of New York, trust me, we get frost!...Been using a CZ-3D for a good 3yrs now. I hit the same places every spring and still find good coins. I would`nt say they were all deep, and they were all found in places ive been over and over. avg 4-to-6in. I would say "frost" plays a major roll at what I find every spring. I never used an E-Trac, so I cant compare on depth. My CZ has served me well, I found a Bust Half and many large cents at 10in with the 10.5 coil. So all I can brag about with my CZ is 10in depth, my avg depth with the 8in stock was about 6-8in. I actually just sent it in for a tune-up. so i guess i should wait and see how that goes first, lol.
Pro-

Keep us posted? Is Tom servicing it? What is the model #? 6-8 inches with the 8 inch coil??? Hmmmm I get 10 inch plus with a dime using 8 inch coil.......

I sent it in to Fisher. was told its still under warranty and theyll adjust it free of charge

I've been hunting in the cold for over 10 years now, when I moved to Maine 7 years ago I had to find new spots to hunt, I secured about 4 fields to hunt and that is where I do the majority of my hunting, I hunt them every day from April to Dec and when I don't find anything, I just go to another of the 4 fields, and I always find things I missed, I think some of it is from the frost, but it's more from me peeling off layer of metal and my detector is seeing deeper, no or yes, or is it something else

Many possible factors. If you have the time to read "Head-to-Head Comparison Testing" article on the home-page of this web-site.....you may find your answer(s).

Tom, you write,

when you went back to the car to swap detectors, did the nearby local radio station switch from nighttime 10KW to daytime 50KW transmit power? Or did the A/C compressor and pool pump cycle 'on' at the nearby building?

how far away do you have to be for these conditions have no effect, I think about a lot of the other conditions and that's why I keep hunting these ares

Wish I could give a definitive answer; yet, different detectors.....and different conditions are TOO variable!

Prolab69 Wrote:
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> I sent it in to Fisher. was told its still under
> warranty and theyll adjust it free of charge


and the runaround begins...