F75 two tone

I was at a sight behind my house that just got scraped. It dates back to the 1800s. Anyway tried Nasa Tom's mono tone disc at 6 and all you would hear was the tone going off. Lots of iron and nails. Then tried a disc of 7,8,9 didn't help much too many bad targets. Then tried two tone I think it was 2f and I could hear the iron as a buzz and the other targets with a higher tone. It was a lot eaiser for me to hunt this way.

I started to find a lot of tagets from some old coins to buttons, bullets, casings, tiny brass rivets from cloths. I will be making a video if I can edit it down to 10 minutes for youtube. Anyway there may be masking I am sure the wet ground from the recent rains didn't help. This is the best place to do trial and error testing with the F75. I could not get my sens past mid 60.

The targets are getting harder to find now but I think when the ground dries a bit more I will find some more stuff. Thinking of trying mono tone and then going to two tone and checking out the target to see what works better.

I wonder if being in the Gold Country of Calif makes a difference the way the machine works. Give me a few weeks to edit the video.

LowBoy

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Will everyone is difference on how they like the tones. Sometimes I use 4, but most of the time I like 3 if it is has a lot of trash , 3H if I am looking for nickels and there is not a lot of pul tabs.

But I am talking about masking and tones!

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

You may try tone 4 and JE mode . That may help you to hear the difference in the targets. I use the small coil and can get a dime at about 8" when it is wet. ( wet ground you will get more depth) I use sen. as high as a I can, disc. 21, notch 0 or 36, tones 3H or 4, DE or JE. On sme of the set up it depends on what you ground will let you do.

You hunt a lot different then I do maybe a disc of 6 or less no notch 4 tone on iron free areas I am getting to like the 2 tone mode going to try delta pitch next

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

LowBoy,

Your dirt (and iron decomposition status) conditions are fascinating. You may very well have a extenuating circumstance of where you need full-scale iron Disc settings to differentiate/discriminate/ID your soil & iron type. I would recommend continuing the test in monotone..... and continue raising Disc to 11, 12, 13, etc.... to find out just exactly how much Disc is needed for these unique conditions. If you encroach the final Disc number of '15'.... then there is no need for monotone and hair-splitting iron Disc settings for best unmasking capabilities. Simply select a tone option of your choice, and stabilize the unit for best 'minimum human fatigue factor' performance ((( knowing the detector can perform better with different settings..... but us humans are the limiting factor ))).

I warn against delta-pitch (DP) mode. Pass a nickel, womans gold engagement ring, pewter buttons, other small buttons and some nails under the coil whilst in DP mode..... and see what happens! Any lower conductive non-ferrous item with a VDI of approx '34' (or lower) will produce a low (iron) tone whilst in DP mode.... and you will miss these targets. BEWARE!

Tom

Tom said.

If you encroach the final Disc number of '15'.... then there is no need for monotone and hair-splitting iron Disc settings for best unmasking capabilities. Simply select a tone option of your choice, and stabilize the unit for best 'minimum human fatigue factor' performance ((( knowing the detector can perform better with different settings..... but us humans are the limiting factor ))).

This happened to me on yesterdays dig after a few hours.
Every sweep of the search coil produced a bombardment of signals prrrrts, sprrrrts,one way loud low vdu iron tones,loud one and a halfway tones, tones that had the vdu bouncing up and down the scale and in and among some good repeatable two way signals which i dug.
I tried disc 6 monotone pf, 0 disc 2f pf and both of these with disc up to 15.

Toms "human fatigue factor took a high toll" every signal made me look at the vdu, every one way signal made me check it from multiple directions to see if it would upgrade the target to a two way i must have listened to hundreds if not thousands os signals, very demanding.
Combine that with i was up at 5am, had a 3 hour drive to the site with the same return jouney a full 7 hours in the field with a 30 minute break, today i have a blinding headache!!
With similar circumstances i am still going to persevere with the previous settings but i am also going to try and "stabalise the unit".
The question is can this be done in such severe conditions?
Will turning the sensitivity down reduce the amount of "noise" to a more tollerant "human fatigue factor"?
If it does at what cost to the good targets?
I suspect an in between balance, next time out i will experiment a bit more.
Take care, Mart.

The T-2; (subsequently - the F-75) are the first detector(s) to attempt to combat extreme high iron nail content soil. Far from perfect, but they have opened a door that has never been opened in the past. They are far from perfect..... and are also severely masked, BUT, they present the first ELEMENTARY step in allowing to hunt severely iron-laiden trashed-out sites. If your site conditions are severe in iron nail content/volume....... and you can handle continuous audio output in your headphones; I suggest a Disc '0' and 2-tone (I prefer 4-tone), 'PF' mode and Sens as high as you can handle; prefer '99'. If only to turn down the volume on the low-tone ONLY! ((( Not an option; ...yet ))). And COMPLETELY ignore the VDI....and be solely reliant upon the audio presentation. Don't ever expect the VDI to be semi/quasi-close to correct when the coil is submerged in a carpet of nails... and (hopefully) a non-ferrous target also in-the-mix. Strictly/solely rely upon the audio presentation.
This set-up config can be quite fatiguing...... until your brian can tune-out the low-tones eminating from your headphones.
Remember; lower Sens settings under these conditions.... will cause more masking (yes, this is a paradox)........but also remember; some sites still remain COMPLETELY unhuntable....even with the T-2/F-75.

Tom

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You hunt a lot different then I do maybe a disc of
> 6 or less no notch 4 tone on iron free areas I am
> getting to like the 2 tone mode going to try delta
> pitch next
Will I hunt very trashy spots most of the time and use the small coil on the f75. That is why I like that set up. The big coil just will not work where I hunt it see to much. Even with the small coil with my setting it is a lot of targets in the ground like one every 1/2" are less.

Tom Said.

If only to turn down the volume on the low-tone ONLY! ((( Not an option; ...yet ))).

On the button again Tom.

Rumour is it's being worked on along with other refinements.

From a design point of view it presents a challenge but massive satisfaction for the desiner/s when they crack it.
From a technical point of view to do what has not been done before.

Also there is a desire by some to provide the end user with both performance and comfort,this,more than ever before the "battle of the balance."

As you mentioned before the "human factor" is the limiting factor.
Take care, Mart.

How about split the tones iron on one side and good targets on the other side of the headphones

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

If I'm not mistaken, XP's Goldmaxx Pro has an iron volume. I'd be suprised if an eaiser to use delta pitch or an iron volume option aren't in the works for FT.

My experience personally (and i spend as much time experimenting with the most up to date suggestios as i do detecting) along with listening to the reports of others has been this.

On heavily iron contaminated sites where there were signals on every sweep many users when first getting the F75 and on a learning curve dug plenty of iron.

This led to discouragement and so they decided to dig only good two way repeatable signals.

From expert comments,experimentation and trial and error etc the Unmasking capabilitiers and better user settings of the F75 became more apparent.

For example the angle/direction of approach could be critical in getting the good two way signal.

Therefore if a good signal of any sort even one way along with a lower tone the target area would be check from all directions, this would reduce the chance of good items being left.

In the UK it is commonly known as the North/South, East/West approach.

It was also found that the sweep speed and the sweep length when doing this played an important role in target id.

The tendancy is to slow down and shorten the sweep speed and length straight away.
This was found NOT to be the best way to accurately id the target
.
A moderate to fast controlled sweep speed with a normal sweep length from N to S, E to W is being used by those with many hours of detecting with the F75 as to be the best method.

The moderate to fast contolled sweep speed but NOT a fast walking pace with a normal sweep length with a correctly site specific set up on the F75 with N to S, E to W target id will definately give excellent results.
Along with the above the "if in doubt dig it" saying applies.
Take care, Mart.

Interesting thread-length.

* Dave & John do not lean towards a "best balance of both worlds" (excessive compromise) approach; rather, .... allowing the end user to excessively overdrive the unit, if the operator desires.

* Although the F-75 (& T-2) can be driven to (slightly) greater overall depths with a faster sweep speed, , , , a high iron nail content site should utilize a slower sweep for a better human intelligibility resolution factor. In these nail trashed-out sites, the detector (due to severe masking // signal attenuation) may only see but a few inches anyway....... so max depth capabilities may never be ascertained under these circumstances; hence, a faster sweep speed (may) not help.

* The elliptical DD coil with its inherent extremely tight electromagnetic footprint 'beam' heavily accentuates the North-to-South, East-to-West and NorthEast-to-SouthWest justification...... especially the more trashy the site presents.

* The more 'trashed out' the site, the more human cohabitation existed; subsequently, the more (higher volume) "good" targets exist..... in general (excluding extenuating circumstances). . . . . and hence; the extreme NEED for a "high-trash environment" detector.

* With the F-75/T-2; in rapid-fire audio succession, it is not uncommon to hear 50 targets in one coil sweep.... from the left side of your body...swinging the coil to the right side of your body....... especially in a heavily nail-infested site. A concentric coil equipped detector may only report 12 - 15 (at best) targets in this exact same spot. F-75/T-2 provides more targets to 'select' from, due to elliptical DD coil in concert with rapid-reset microprocessor.

* The 'angle-of-attack' (approach angle) into a good target in a closely colocated multi-target scenario is critical... and (most importantly) is ascertainable (do'able) with a very narrow electromagnetic footprint. No-joy with concentric (in)abilities.

* Yes, ID circuitry may like a faster sweep-speed for better ID resolution..... even in fairly trashy sites (another paradox). Moderate sweep-speed until you locate a 'suspect' target..... then, a quick wrist-snap (Minelab 'wiggle') for better resolution once approx pinpoint location is established.

Tom

* Dave & John do not lean towards a "best balance of both worlds" (excessive compromise) approach; rather, .... allowing the end user to excessively overdrive the unit, if the operator desires.

Hello Tom.

I was thinking more inline with what was said below particularly this bit.

"But we did a better job of hiding the details thereby giving the user an improved sense of predictability."


Most of our recent designs do discrimination entirely in software, where control settings are actually data which don’t necessarily do the same things to signals that circuit components used to do. In the case of the T2 and F75, those differences were confusing to some users. In general if a T2 or F75 seems too noisy, the solution is to set the discrimination level to the iron range; and if that doesn’t do the job, also reduce the sensitivity setting. In the F70 and F5 which are more recent designs, the interactions between control settings and signals are even more complex, but we did a better job of hiding the details thereby giving the user an improved sense of predictability.

The above is part of a report by Dave Johnson, Chief Designer FTP & Fisher.

In addition the user interface has definately been worked on the reduced number of buttons dials etc, i think there has been a comparison with a 747 cockpit and the undesirability of that scenario.
.
Also the user manual for the F75 could have been a lot clearer on a number of points.

The notch feature for example caused a lot of earlier users to return there machines because they thought they were unstable and faulty, i'm sure you know what i mean with the notching in and out problem.

Likewise how would anyone know that by setting discrimination below 5 or higher than 19 high gain would be activated??

The more informed the end user is then the more they will get out of the product straight from the box and if a driver for example moves from a typicall family motor to a formula one racing car a few extra driving lessons from the manufacturer would come in handy.

This is what i was meaning by balance.

Could not things like this be done with no compromise to performance?

Also interesting concerns (Most of our recent designs do discrimination entirely in software)

Does that mean then that a software update for the F75 is possible and would increase it's performance??
If so is any planned??

Take care, MART.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2009 02:20PM by mart.

Very interesting perspective. Yes, some things do indeed get left out of the owners manuals. Sometimes deliberately, sometimes by oversight. It is not uncommon for a designer to allow/authorize the user a 'discovery' phase...... that is not in the owners manual. To put every minute' detail in the owners manual can (sometimes) be quite lengthy........ when the designer simply wants to get the new (completed) technology into eager hands......and desires NOT to delay it's release simply because of a longer delay in producing a comprehensive owners/operators manual. ((( It's not uncommon for design engineers to place lessor value in owners manuals ))). This also brings into play "unexpected unique performance/operating characteristics" that are not in the intended design plan. Some of these characteristics may be desirable.... and some undesirable.
Also, a newer release of a like-item/similar platform may have a new 'twist' in it's design..... so as to 'dial it in' to the capabilities of what the end-users quantifiable/usable capabilities and application by the general-consensus feedback presents. If the masses can not readily use it...... the product will not sell.

As far as updates/upgrades to an existing platform; it can be done; however, there is a liability issue with multi-layered risks associated in this approach. In general; it's better to create a new platform with these updated software upgrades included..... IN ADDITION TO; newer conceptual & intellectual foray (learned along the way) homogenized into anew.

Tom

Tom,
your right about the manuals, again what to include or not include is a question of balance.

May i say many thanks for taking the time to reply to the mumblings of amatuers like myself, in so doing you clarify and straighten out so many misconceptions which gives me personally a much more posistive mindset.

The hundreds of man hours spent by yourself learning the machine and then passing the information on is priceless and not everyone will say thanks.

Not wanting to sound patronizing please accept this in the appreciative spirit that it was given.

Take care, Mart.

Mart,

You are (painfully) correct. Welcome to life!
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For one to give thanks; there lies fortitude, internal stability and self-confidence.
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Received with highest gratitude, , , you are most welcome.

Tom

I think you need to take the manual as somewhat of a quick start guide and use this and other forums (with everyday users) as the real operating guide. I get 10 times more "real" operational settings information here than I do from the manual. Optimal operating conditions are only optimal where you are detecting at the moment. Drive 20 miles and it's a new ball game. I am trying to use all the different setups from everyone so that I can to see if there is a better "fit" for my area than I have presently. I used a CZ from '94 until a couple weeks ago when I got my F75. I have read the manual 6 or 7 times but get more useful information here. This past weekend I intentionally worked an iron pit for about 5 hours. I pulled 11 buttons from it. Only one was military (an eagle cuff button) but three of the 11 came out of the ground along with a nail. This is the same site that I pounded for 3 hours with the CZ70 Pro a few weeks ago and came up with one small pant button. I liked Tom's Disc '6' & mandatory 'monotone' the most even though I tried some other settings. My GB was running 60-70 and Sens was a mandatory 65 due to the stubble and falseing. It just worked best for this site which is in NE Oklahoma. It was an open bean field with short stubble. I would like to get back to it with the 6x4 coil and see what I missed with the standard coil. Most of the buttons read 21 to 24. Again, I am really enjoying everyone’s field notes on their type of hunting.

Thanks,
Cuniagau

“Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction.”

Properly config'd; you will have stunning results (especially in thick iron) when you run the F-75/T-2 behind a concentric coil equipped detector.