E-Trac vs. F75 LTD test coming...

Of course. And don't forget that the F75 has a sensitivity knob to quiet it down Minelab-like.

This has been an absolutely outstanding thread. I have many thoughts, but not much time.

First, I now have an SE Pro and have begun initial tests in my test garden. I have to say that almost ALL of go-rebels results he wrote a few posts back (where he ran six tests) completely mirror mine -- differences between the two machines considered, of course. I did NOT work much with "unmasking" my complex targets yet, but I DID try various settings for depth on coins. His results with the Etrac mimic mine with the SE Pro, and his results with the F75 mimic mine with the F70...F70 VDI degrades with depth -- that "13" VDI on coins with depth is very very common. Yes, it's a good, clean, clear repeatable signal, but an IRON signal, tone AND VDI. I am also finding the results with manual versus auto sens with my SE Pro that seem to exist with the Etrac. Manual sens is WAY deeper than auto -- even at the same "sensitivity" number, BUT, if you go too high on the manual sens. you start getting iron falsing. I do think though, in terms of depth, I have to agree with NASA Tom that running anything but MANUAL sens. is a major degradation of an otherwise very capable machine. The falsing, though, does increase, but running a "pretty hot" sensitivity ON MANUAL seems better, so far, on depth and with not TOO much falsing, than running the same sens. on semi-auto.

I also have coins I can't see in auto sens, that suddenly appear using manual sens; further, when I go to the deepest coin I can hit in manual, maxed out sens, and then put sens in semi-auto, the coin disappears.

This is much different than the F70 -- the "sens" and "threshold" on the F70 seem MUCH more biased toward being simply a "volume of the signal" thing, whereas upping sensitivity on an Explorer has MAJOR effects on depth of coin you can acquire -- it seems MORE than just a "volume of the tone" adjustment.

Earlier, Lawrenzo said this:

"After reading this and having used both the F70, F75, T2 and LTD and never using the Etrac I would bet that the deep silver may be reading iron grunts on the above fisher and Tek machines...So if hunting for deep silver dig the grunts that are deep."

YES YES YES, on the deep silver reading as iron grunts! And this is one of my biggest complaints on my F70. Remember, unlike the 75, the 70 has NO continuous depth readout. Normally, that wouldn't bother me; it has depth in pinpoint, and I usually pinpoint a target anyway. The PROBLEM is, you combine "no continuous depth readout" with a HUGE proclivity to call deeper coins VDI-13/iron, and you are HANDICAPPED. You have to pinpoint EVERY iron tone to see which ones are "deep," if you want to take a "dig deep iron tones" approach to looking for deep coins. I would REALLY rather the machine give NO VDI info WHATSOEVER, on those deep targets, maybe some "different" tone that says "deep target," as opposed to assigning an iron VDI, as it is just WAY less misleading to give it a "question mark" for its VDI, than to call the deep coin solidly, repeatably, clearly, iron. This is where my main complaint with the F70 is -- these two things: when hunting in nails, I have lots of iron-false high tones (which can SOUND like COINS), and yet conversely I also have the deep coins which SOUND like IRON. Thus, it is a very confusing, complicated situation to make sense of. WAY too much time spent examining and analyzing the high falses (i.e. are they coins hinting at their presence among nails, or just falses?), and then WAY too much "passing up" of the deep coins which are posing as "nails" in terms of VDI. Thus, while a depth BEAST, the machine is not EFFECTIVELY all that deep...and this combined with the excessive falses make some hunts very difficult/frustrating. If you TELL me there is a deep coin in a spot, with ANY machine, my F70 WILL see it. Period. But if you set me loose in a 50' x 50' iron-trashy area, and ask me to pick out a single 8" quarter with my F70 and 10" coil? I have VERY VERY little chance.

Along these lines, NASA-Tom said this:

"Keep in mind that a VDI of '13' is in the high end of the iron range............BUT......the coin only ID's as a '24' or '25' to begin with. A VERY low conductor."

In my experience, I am not convinced this is the whole explanation, with all due respect. Yes, the gold coin is a lower conductor, which would make sense that it might read a bit lower (down to the iron range), but I have had the EXACT same thing happen with deep high-conductive clad/silver. That "13" number is VERY consistent on deep coins NO MATTER the conductivity, in my experience. It's almost like it's a default or something. If I had to put it in words, my observation would be that the ability of the machines to "see" conductivity decreases with depth; the machine would thus see the "conductivity" of a "lower conductive" non-ferrous target to maybe 4", while with higher-conductive non-ferrous target it might "see" the "conductivity" deeper, to maybe 8". But, bottom line, once it loses the "conductivity" part of the target (be it 4", 8", whatever), it simply assigns a "13" (with occasional 11s and 12s). I know this is not a correct view, in terms of what the machine is really doing, but it's how it SEEMS. The worst part is, though, as I said, it might "lose" the good "conductivity" reading on a coin at 6-8", BUT this is only about HALF of the depth it can SEE the coin at. Thus, it is EFFECTIVELY only HALF as deep as it really is (at least when running the machine as a coin-shooter) -- especially since you don't have a continuous depth meter (as you would on the F75/T2). Let's say I'm coin shooting and I disc out iron; on my F-70, I will NOT see a coin (except maybe a brief, occasional, choppy tone that sounds like an "iron false" ) deeper than 6-8". Heck, I may as well have a machine whose max depth is only 8" on a coin, but has fairly accurate VDI over its depth range. EFFECTIVELY, it's pretty much the same.

THIS is what I'm hoping the SE Pro will help with (and, by the way, what the Gold Bug Pro helps with -- as it has MUCH more accurate VDI with depth than the F70/stock 10" coil).

Just some long-winded thoughts.

Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 05:11PM by steveg.

I think you have found your machine......excellent analysis & write-up.

Steve........Well said.....and well understood. Yes, there are places where mineralization is bad enough that.... ID "accuracy" drops off quite fast....as depth is increased. Once again: DEPTH vs EFFECTIVE DEPTH.

An extremely enlightening thread. The findings are very interesting to say the least. It seems as though finding a sweat spot with these units with regards to the hunting environment and considering each machines unique settings and capabilities is quite challenging if not down right difficult at times.
Finding these inherent idiosyncrasies with each unit is a key to capitalizing upon each units strengths. We've got to use what we have to its greatest advantage.
Great thread.

Amen!

Steve you put into well thought out words my experiences with the F75LTD. I was always frustrated when hunting iron/trash where the speed was supposed to help me. 2F tones in iron helped a little, but not enough. I really wanted it to be my machine, and I used it and it's younger brother (the non-LTD) a bunch. We just didn't mesh. If Fisher can put a multi-freq machine with good target ID in that light weight, battery conserving, machine - I'll buy one in a second. I'm not brand loyal - I'm finds loyal

Shambler --

Thanks for the kind words. I'd be second in line, right behind you, for that Fisher multi-freq., good target ID, lightweight, battery-conserving coin shooter! I even have a name for 'em -- Silver Bug Pro!

Steve

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand that guru Andy Sabisch runs DEEP=ON
> and FAST=OFF with his "coin program".
>
> Can someone tell me his other advanced settings?

My friend uses Andy's coin program and he slays deep silver that my F75 LTD can't even hear

Very interesting, Cal_cobra. I'm surprised...if you told me the LTD was IDing those deepies as iron, or whatever, that would make sense. But couldn't even see them? Wow. Bad soil?

Steve

Quote
Cal_Cobra
My friend uses Andy's coin program and he slays deep silver that my F75 LTD can't even hear

I had the misery of this situation too. I actually couldn't hear a peep (regardless of what I did with disc or sens), he pulled his phones and I could hear a repeatable high tone from every angle. Out popped two barbers dimes. I've heard since that there may be some unheard interference with the Explorer and the F75 - but he did switch to his probe which you'd think would mitigate some of it. If you're in the situation again, cal, ask him to shut off his machine. I'm curious if that changes anything.

Yes... very interesting.

I see the opposite scenario between the two detectors when I run the Etrac in semi-auto +3 to minimize iron falsing.

OH YEAH -- Shambler, I forgot about that. That would make sense. I've heard that if using an F-machine next to a Minelab, to put the F-machine in pinpoint mode, and then have the Minelab guy do a noice cancel; will fix the problem. I can't verify that will work, but that's what I've read. Anyway, I forgot ALL ABOUT that interference thing. Do you think that could have been the issue, Cal_cobra? I just have a hard time coming up with a logical reason that the E-Trac would with any regularity nail a coin that your F75 couldn't even SEE...

Steve

I hunt with a buddy who uses an E-trac. When he does a noise cancel before we detect, I can hear his E changing frequencies through my f-75. Sounds like a rapid fire buz on certain freqs, not all. It finally settels on one that I can't hear. During the hunt, ocassionally he calls me over to ckeck a target, there was never a time when the f-75 couldn't hear one of his targets.

True.

I've heard a lot of situations and have seen it where an 8" dime is heard by an Explorer but not by the F75. Some here are saying that's not the case. Either the e-trac user isn't hearing the truly difficult targets so you can compare them, it's the dirt (which I don't believe since, I'm in mild midwest soil), or there's a quality control problem. I've witnessed it too many times (with an F75 and LTD vs. an Explorer XS and II) to dismiss it as an anomaly ... something is amiss.

Shambler,

Not sure I understood what you were trying to say. What did you mean when you said:

Shambler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Either the e-trac user isn't hearing the
> truly difficult targets so you can compare them,
> it's the dirt (which I don't believe since, I'm in
> mild midwest soil), or there's a quality control
> problem.

Overall, are you saying that you believe there ARE instances where some F-75s won't hear targets that the E-Tracs/Explorers will? I am not doubting you, just trying to clarify. I know my F70 never was unable to hear a target than an E-Trac user alerted me to. My machine didn't necessarily give DIGGABLE information, but it could hear it. That's why I said above that I was surprised if an F75 was not hearing targets that a Minelab would. If I understand correctly, you definitely feel otherwise. Very interesting.

Thanks!

Steve

Shambler, I should add to my last sentance; ,caused by the e-trac's freq's interfereing with the f-75s capabilities.

I like your choice of words; anomaly & amiss. All your statements could be true, but, a few times I have called him over and asked him to sweep over a target and he would say it's junk with the E. I would get a squeek of a high tone with the 75 (in a nail littered site) and dig to find a flat button. Just last month he came across a signal he liked, looked up at me and smiled and said come check this out. I went over it and got a 65 to 68 high tone and said it was deep. He dug it up and pulled out a 1/2 reale 7" deep. Those reales are thin silver, I had no problems with my old 75 picking it up. I'm certainly not bashing the E-trac, I would love to own one. It's one of the best if not the best on the market and is a fun machine to use, minus the weight. I have bags of Ind Hds, large cents, wheats, coppers, buttons, silver. Coins from the late 1600's to present and a drawer full of you name it. I'm not bragging but the old f-75 has served me well.

Too many people love it for it not to be a great detector. I hope with the next release, I can be a fisher user again

I made the assumption years ago that frequency does matter when
deciding on what type conductivity range one desires to go for.
Like small low conductors, a higher frq,-- high conductors
need low operating frq.
And up to a few years back it seemed to me the lower operating
frq provided a better meter reading on some of the better IDing units
out there such as the Whites 6000/XL-Pro.
The deeper an object is in the ground on higher frq metered detectors
start to lose the ability to give a text book ideal meter reading
faster than on a low operating frq
But in the past few years First Texas has pushed the envelope on the
above theories with the T2, F75 and others.
I do wonder though if the above theories laid out above still hold sway
under certain ground mineral conditions and fringe depth of targets.

I have had a few high freq detectors with meters, the last one I had
was the Xterra 70 fitted with a high frq coil
I can say without hesitation that meter readings fluctuated a lot more
with that coil compared to using the mid frq coil.

All I know is my old White's 6000Di Series 2 was the 'killer' on ID in California highly mineralized soil. My White's Silver Eagle (same freq), and is the digital version of the 6000/XL-Pro, walks all over my T2 for accurate ID here in Idaho's soil, which is the same mineralization as CA. The T2 wipes it's feet on the Silver Eagle for depth though.

Steve, good/correct observation.

Just found this thread & Thank You go-rebels for starting it! I learned A LOT!! I'm a BRAND NEW F75LTD owner (Haven't even swung it yet due to injury) & sure looked into those ML machines before I got the F75. I'll stick with my so far unused F75 with no trepidations! I did wanna say that, although I LOVED ( & still do) my White's XLT, My Fav. unit was the 6000 DI Pro. SL - I've never seen a better ID'ing machine and from what I'm learning, I prolly never will! (WHY did I sell that horse?) ( Penny @ 9" was a penny at 9"!!)
I hope to get out soon with my new horse but I can tell that the TID won't be close to what I "had" but I bet the depth will be there - I'll be diggin' those deep 13's though! Thanks again!!! P.S. - I'm in Gwinnett Co. Ga. - I sure wish there was one of you hotshots nearby to show me the NEW ropes! (I Might teach you a thing or too also! - Na...)

Been swingin' a White's since the 70's - 5 machines, Currently an XLT & Fisher F75 LE - 50,000 finds, 30,000 (or so) keepers. Published in the White's catalog. Always looking for good/decent hunting buds! Get in touch!

Field tests are good and admire your enthusiam but a lot depends on your ground(mineralization) and the nut behind the wheel(no pun intended)...Seems like you have the F75 experience and not the Explorer experience so would bet on the F75. However in the real world Minelab Explorers have the best guts in the industry(opinion) and excel especially on deep silver coins while the F75...EMI and all will excell in the lower gold ring-nickle area.

As far as Explorer settings they vary from individual to individual and area to area but many excell with them in varied setups and same goes for F75's....No unit is perfect of course as if their was one everyone would have one and look forward to your test...

Seems like I've spent all summer traveling in Europe on business (w/o detector) so no time to hunt or test and hardly any time to even read posts on my favorite forums. Anyway, I'm back for a week and wanted to test one of my favorite coils, the 6" eXcelerator, on my Etrac in one particular test setup I created:

I used (4) new #4 finish nails (approx 1" long, 0.090" diameter) buried 1" deep 6" in a circle with a silver dime buried 4" in the center of the circle (6" measured from the center of each nail). All nails are oriented parallel to the surface of the ground and parallel to each other. Two of the nails are pointed exactly in line with the dime.

Repeating an earlier test, my F75 LTD fitted with the 11" coil could never detect the dime under any condition or any sweep direction. I could find it using the 5" DD but only if I took extra care to wiggle the coil between the four nails. Under normal hunting circumstances I'd be very lucky to find it.

Likewise, the Etrac fitted with the Pro (DD) coil could never find the dime using any settings in either Conductive or TTF modes. And I tried switching all options! No joy...

Now, to my surprise, the Etrac fitted with the 6" DD coil failed to detect the dime using any setting, any sweep direction, any sweep speed including the Minelab wiggle directly over the center of the dime! My ground is bone dry now and that itself should promote a minimum (optimum) iron masking condition.

Now I've pulled coins out of holes with nails nearby, but this particular condition, with a silver dime 3" below the plane of the nails, presents a condition just too difficult for the Etrac to crack.

I'd like to repeat this test with Sunray's X-5 DD coil but I don't have one available to test. The diminutive 5" coil might be the trump card for this particular test.

Go-Reb....welcome back. If you do get the chance to pick up the Sunray X-5 for the E-Trac...do. It's an awesome coil.

Priceless data and learning-curve.

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OH YEAH -- Shambler, I forgot about that. That
> would make sense. I've heard that if using an
> F-machine next to a Minelab, to put the F-machine
> in pinpoint mode, and then have the Minelab guy do
> a noice cancel; will fix the problem. I can't
> verify that will work, but that's what I've read.
> Anyway, I forgot ALL ABOUT that interference
> thing. Do you think that could have been the
> issue, Cal_cobra? I just have a hard time coming
> up with a logical reason that the E-Trac would
> with any regularity nail a coin that your F75
> couldn't even SEE...
>
> Steve

My apologies, I missed this, but would like to provide an answer (albeit rather tardy).

I learned the hard way that the ML/E-trac can knock out a F75. Last year I found an old abandoned overgrown scout/church camp that was used from the early 1940's - mid 1960's. Not as old as I'd hoped for, but abundant with silver and almost zero trash so I can't complain I shared this site find with a guy I was hunting with at the time (who oddly enough disappeared after the camp dried up) and he was using an E-trac, I believe he was fairly new to it at the time. At any rate, we quickly learned after the first couple of hunts that in order to continue to hunt, we would have to clear brush, fallen trees, whack weeds, etc. At the start of each hunt we would spend an hour to hour and a half clearing out a section. After clearing out one small (probably only 20' x 30' at the most) we fired up our machines and started to hunt. My machine wasn't hearing anything, I dug one war nickle and that was it (and it didn't sound good, and was only ~ 3" deep). My hunting partner was pulling out the goods, then when he dug a sterling silver thimble out of a spot I just swept my coil over and I saw that he had found about 3 silver dimes as well in spots I just scanned, I knew something was wrong. These were shallow targets, no more then 5" deep, so unless masked (I have a great story about a heavily masked walker half they were easy pickens, the real work was in removing the overgrowth. I asked him to switch off his machine for a minute as something was wrong with mine, and sure enough I was now easily able to pick up targets. I found that by standing next to the E-trac with my F75 LTD, and hitting pin-point while the E-trac goes through its noise cancel will keep the E-trac from jamming the F75. What an eye opener that was. We ended up finding over 100 silver coins in about five weeks (three walkers!), plus about ten pieces of silver jewelry, one nice gold ring, several pieces of sterling flatware, it was fun.

Last Friday a friend invited me to a park that he claimed was always good for a barber or two. He wanted to flag some silver dimes and see how the LTD did. He was using the Explorer2. He's probably one of the best explorer users I've ever met, just an amazing amount of killer finds, including 18 gold coins and two of them are $1 gold pieces, so I'm not sure why the E-trac couldn't pick them up. At any rate, within 20 minutes he had flagged a target that he thought sounded like it was a 7" deep silver dime. I scanned it with the LTD and nothing, nadda, only occasional random sounds with unintelligible TID. I tried all possible settings, and nothing. He dug a 1927 merc at about 7" just like he called it. About 10 minutes later he called me over, and said he had what he thought was a silver dime at about 7-8" deep. I had the same results as I had before. I asked him to turn off the Exp2 as I thought perhaps the F75 was getting zonked out, but to no avail. Talk about an eye opener. Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of killer finds with my F75 LTD, but not on that hunt.

HH,
Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2011 06:37PM by Cal_cobra.

Brian --

Very interesting story. The one at the scout camp makes sense (wow, what a site THAT was, for you...WOW!).

However, the one at the park doesn't. I can't imagine how to explain that. With his Explorer turned off, you STILL got no hit on a 7-8" silver dime?

By the way, I'm confused when you talked about being "not sure why the E-Trac couldn't pick up" the gold coins your friend found. You said he got them with his Explorer II, but never talked about an E-Trac that couldn't hit them...

Steve

steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian --
>
> Very interesting story. The one at the scout camp
> makes sense (wow, what a site THAT was, for
> you...WOW!).
>
> However, the one at the park doesn't. I can't
> imagine how to explain that. With his Explorer
> turned off, you STILL got no hit on a 7-8" silver
> dime?
>
> By the way, I'm confused when you talked about
> being "not sure why the E-Trac couldn't pick up"
> the gold coins your friend found. You said he got
> them with his Explorer II, but never talked about
> an E-Trac that couldn't hit them...
>
> Steve


Hi Steve,

I have never used an Exp/ET, do you expect the Exp2 and E-trac to properly ID the $1 gold coin?

HH,
Brian