Looks like a Intronik 2SF model coming and seems UNIQUE

If you are looking for a machine to tell the difference between rings , and alum scrap, look at the Rutus Alter 71. It also uses the hodograph, but I watch the VDI numbers . Rings tend to lock into one number, where as most alum bounces a few numbers. Not perfect , but quite accurate. The 71 is cheaper, and ground balances very easy.

I'm not trying to hijack thread, look up the Alter 71 thread for more info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2017 01:39PM by possum mo.

I'd second that, personally i think my Rutus trumped the AKA and Deus in trash.

possum mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are looking for a machine to tell the diffe
> rence between rings , and alum scrap, look at the
> Rutus Alter 71. It also uses the hodograph, but I
> watch the VDI numbers . Rings tend to lock into on
> e number, where as most alum bounces a few numbers
> . Not perfect , but quite accurate. The 71 is che
> aper, and ground balances very easy.
>
> I'm not trying to hijack thread, look up the Alter
> 71 thread for more info.

This is possible. But AKA should be deeper. Audio is also awesome.

ghound --

Sounds good, thanks.

Sounds like the hodograph is probably trying to give some idea of "roundness," sort of what we try to do with our ears -- but it is putting those "clues" we listen for into graphical form...??

Steve

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think the hodo can give a solid difference
> in a ring pull/gold ring, they both give straight
> lines, they do give different ID numbers though.
> I tested a ladies small thin gold ring at ID35, th
> e most common ring pulls at ID 50-52, mans thick g
> old ring at ID63.
> You can also use full tones, kinda like the deus w
> hich would help, but there's no notch available, a
> t least not on my Signum. There also quite good at
> ID bottle tops, crown caps and small flat pieces o
> f thin tin, they have an algorithm to help check t
> hese at the touch of a button, so you can dig less
> trash once your comfortable with the machine.
>
>
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks, Digger.
> >
> > Shelton, I know that nothing is 100%; I wasn't s
> ug
> > gesting so, nor even meaning to imply it. What
> I
> > was trying to do, though I may not have stated i
> t
> > well, was to try to ascertain whether -- in Shen
> an
> > doah Digger's experience -- he feels confident u
> si
> > ng the machine to give him clues that allow him
> to
> > differentiate between pull tabs and nickels/gold
> r
> > ings a decent majority of the time. In other wo
> rd
> > s, whether the Sorex Pro gives him some informat
> io
> > n via the hodograph that is "unique" in some way
> ,
> > as compared to other machines, so as to help him
> t
> > o better sort the "treasure" from the "trash."
> I
> > don't know much about the hodograph on AKA machi
> ne
> > s, and would like to understand how valuable/acc
> ur
> > ate of a tool it is. Just trying to get opinion
> s
> > from some folks who have used AKA units, whether
> t
> > here is unique information offered based on the
> sh
> > ape of the hodograph, that helps one to gain con
> fi
> > dence in one's dig vs. no dig decision (in a mor
> e
> > precise or accurate way than other machines).
> >
> > Steve

possum mo and ghound...

Interesting. Rutus Alter 71, eh?

I will read about that one. Not one I am at all familiar with.

Steve

Memory serves me, earthmansurfer owned one...maybe he'll chime in also.

Some reading on the Rutus (including the manual) shows it to be an interesting machine; would like to learn more.

Possibly a very good "ring" hunter, given the high-resolution ID scale and the hodograph plot. Thanks for the info, possum mo, including within the thread on this forum from earlier this year.

Steve

Here's a pic of some ID readings for the Rutus, it's a machine with a lot of user options.



steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some reading on the Rutus (including the manual) s
> hows it to be an interesting machine; would like t
> o learn more.
>
> Possibly a very good "ring" hunter, given the high
> -resolution ID scale and the hodograph plot. Than
> ks for the info, possum mo, including within the t
> hread on this forum from earlier this year.
>
> Steve

Steve Ill try and and do a video on the Rutus Alter 71 if you would like to see it running ??

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

There is no way to differ pull tabs from tiny gold rings by Hodograph. But you can differe them by signal rating It's 100% accurate but works. Gold jewelry produces low rating signals

...And hodogroph has nothing to deal with "roundness"

Keith --

Sure would, if you have time. It's an intriguing unit, for sure.

SuchMuch --

Don't know what "signal rating" is. Unfamiliar with that. Possum mo suggests (if I understand him correctly) that using a combination of two clues -- very little movement in ID number (maybe one or two digits) when sweeping the target AND THEN turning 90 degrees and sweeping it, suggests "round," (which makes total sense to me with respect to a shallow target, that is being seen by a machine with such a high degree of resolution in the ID scale), and then secondly a hodograph which is largely vertical. Using these two clues together, he says the machine does a great job (obviously not perfect) at revealing "ring-type" targets versus can slaw, rectangular tabs, etc. However, he didn't mention "signal rating," and I don't recall seeing that in the Rutus instruction manual. Can you fill me it?

Also, can you fill me in, then, on exactly what the hodograph is trying to communicate? What is it sensing, about a target, that it is trying to display visually in the hodograph? Is it an FE-type reading of some sort, or something?

Steve

With CTX 3030 you can get some clues about it. But you are still not for 100% sure. Sometimes depth indicator help also, but you should always to check it. This is a rule of this game.

Interesting, ghound. Thanks for posting...

Steve

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a pic of some ID readings for the Rutus, it
> 's a machine with a lot of user options.
>
> [URL=http://s89.photobucket.com/user/robertkirkwoo
> d/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_220614_zpsbxd8i8
> am.jpg.html][IMG]http://i89.photobucket.com/albums
> /k211/robertkirkwood/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_220
> 614_zpsbxd8i8am.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
>
> steveg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Some reading on the Rutus (including the manual)
> s
> > hows it to be an interesting machine; would like
> t
> > o learn more.
> >
> > Possibly a very good "ring" hunter, given the hi
> gh
> > -resolution ID scale and the hodograph plot. Th
> an
> > ks for the info, possum mo, including within the
> t
> > hread on this forum from earlier this year.
> >
> > Steve

Intronik works by other methods, for example the basic identification of the target is based on the value of the delta hodograph.
There is no such tool in any of the current detectors, so there is simply nothing to compare.
The delta hodograph reading depends only on the target material, and is practically independent of the depth of occurrence.
That is, in practice it is possible to dig out only specific goals on the field, ignoring all the others.
So again I repeat, but at the current time Intronik has nothing to compare - it's a new class of detectors ...
ps: in the spring probably I will get it, and I will show on video how it works.

old video of the hodographs Intronik.
The delta hodograph is displayed in real time, and its value is displayed in a column of numbers.

[youtu.be]

psps: The menu and settings of Intronik will be "user friendly", now this is exactly what they are doing in AKA ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 08:36AM by vfp7.

vfp7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Intronik works by other methods, for example the b
> asic identification of the target is based on the
> value of the delta hodograph.
> There is no such tool in any of the current detect
> ors, so there is simply nothing to compare.
> The delta hodograph reading depends only on the ta
> rget material, and is practically independent of t
> he depth of occurrence.
> That is, in practice it is possible to dig out onl
> y specific goals on the field, ignoring all the ot
> hers.

So, the delta hodograph is a "conductivity" reading?

Also you say the hodograph it is practically independent of depth of the target -- so it is "accurate" through much of the unit's depth capability?

You say it is possibly to dig only specific targets, while ignoring others; so is this "discrimination ability" somehow substantially improved/different from ID/discrimination capability of other units -- say, the FE/CO information on an FBS machine?

Also, the rumored price would be a show-stopper for me personally; lowest I've heard so far is the $3000 to $3500 range. Is that a valid number?

Steve

Keith's fav nail test, down the barrel.

3" nail and silver dime.

[youtu.be]

Delta hodograph is not conductivity like Minelab 3030.
As I previously wrote the work of Intronik there is nothing to compare, since other methods of signal processing.
Intronik, unlike Minelab, operates at these two frequencies, and the target analysis occurs when signals are processed from both frequencies.
In the video above you can see on the hodograph two lines, one of them is short - it's from low frequency, and the second long one is from high frequency.
Also in the middle of the screen in real time, the delta hodograph line is visible - this is the result of processing signals from both frequencies.
In addition, the delta hodograph value in digital form is displayed in the upper left corner, where a column of three digits.
The delta hodograph signal hardly changes from the depth of the target and from the gravity of the ground.
That allows you to accurately identify the target.

At prices - for the current time, it is about this price range.
There is also a possibility of issuing a simplified version of Intronik, respectively, with a lower price.


steveg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vfp7 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Intronik works by other methods, for example the
> b
> > asic identification of the target is based on th
> e
> > value of the delta hodograph.
> > There is no such tool in any of the current dete
> ct
> > ors, so there is simply nothing to compare.
> > The delta hodograph reading depends only on the
> ta
> > rget material, and is practically independent of
> t
> > he depth of occurrence.
> > That is, in practice it is possible to dig out o
> nl
> > y specific goals on the field, ignoring all the
> ot
> > hers.
>
> So, the delta hodograph is a "conductivity" readin
> g?
>
> Also you say the hodograph it is practically indep
> endent of depth of the target -- so it is "accurat
> e" through much of the unit's depth capability?
>
> You say it is possibly to dig only specific target
> s, while ignoring others; so is this "discriminati
> on ability" somehow substantially improved/differe
> nt from ID/discrimination capability of other uni
> ts -- say, the FE/CO information on an FBS machine
> ?
>
> Also, the rumored price would be a show-stopper fo
> r me personally; lowest I've heard so far is the $
> 3000 to $3500 range. Is that a valid number?
>
> Steve

This is Signum MFD, but not Intronik ...

/ A short video of working check of changes in Intronik, in comparison with XP Deus.
Now the stage of debugging and checking, with the introduction of changes! /

ps: Note that Intronik has the ability to completely eliminate the processing of "iron", do not cut out discrimination in other detectors, namely, exclude completely!

[youtu.be]




ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith's fav nail test, down the barrel.
>
> 3" nail and silver dime.
>
> [youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 05:26PM by vfp7.

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Memory serves me, earthmansurfer owned one...maybe
> he'll chime in also.


Hey Ozzie, what is the question? Hodograph or ?

From memory:
Depth of my Signum was noticeably better than E-Trac / CTX in my moderately iron mineralized ground.
VDI numbers were often a bit jumpy at depth, but audio very clean.
Excellent separation with stock coil, but not like these high speed machines (but I don't hunt in iron, more a park or field hunter).
Re Hodograph, it was only really useful on targets 6" or less deep. On deep targets it was basically useless and I think that is true of most machines that have anything similar (e.g. V3i - which I owned) It was nice to have, but here in Germany you can't really rely so much on numbers and such as coins fall all over the place. In a park (like) setting it might be more useful but I never had to separate pull tab or the like.
Bottlecaps - I did dig some, nothing like an FBS machine, that is for sure. But with experience you can rule them out. (Except sometimes when rusted and/or at depth)
Really nice sounds, a teeny bit E-Trac like (one of the settings). But, E-Trac was still king for me.
Interface - A bit raw but there was depth there. Coming from a V3i, it was EASY.
Setup - Compared to a V3i it was easy. I took it up really quickly. A bit more complicated than your average detector but pretty damn deep right out of the box.
Balance / Weight was excellent - which was why I moved from my CTX to it.

I bet you this new machine is going to turn heads, but that price...

Albert

ps - I'm leaning towards getting an Equinox, love those sounds, but might look at this machine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 05:39PM by earthmansurfer.

I remember watching your vids on it a fair while ago, its what really sparked my interest in the Signum, there's been a fair bit of updates since the early models, audio changes and menus etc in the MFD.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 06:18PM by ghound.

ghound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember watching your vids on it a cair while a
> go, its what really sparked my interest in the Sig
> num, there's been a fair bit of updates since the
> early models, audio changes and menus etc in the M
> FD.


In a couple of months for MFD will appear a very strong change through an upgrade from Asgo - I'll show on the video that will change.
By the fall of next year, the release of a new firmware based on developments on Intronik is expected, maybe even the menu will be remade to "user friendly"
So MFD will still remain relevant for quite a long time ...

Thanks for the info vfp7

vfp7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ghound Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I remember watching your vids on it a cair while
> a
> > go, its what really sparked my interest in the S
> ig
> > num, there's been a fair bit of updates since th
> e
> > early models, audio changes and menus etc in the
> M
> > FD.
>
>
> In a couple of months for MFD will appear a very s
> trong change through an upgrade from Asgo - I'll s
> how on the video that will change.
> By the fall of next year, the release of a new fir
> mware based on developments on Intronik is expecte
> d, maybe even the menu will be remade to "user fri
> endly"
> So MFD will still remain relevant for quite a long
> time ...

2steveg:

1. Signal rating deals with how signal is strong. Strong Signal rating = large or shallow object. Pull tabs produce stronger signal than tiny gold jewelry.

2. Hodograph is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissajous_curve]Lissajous curve[/url]. As far as I remember, hodograph shape is a track of enduced emf vector

Thanks much for the info, vfp7 and SuchMuch.

Definitely intriguing. No question. But as I said, out of my league financially (unless it's a machine that can differentiate between aluminum/junk and gold with a high degree of accuracy...)!

But I am sure some will jump on board, and it will be really interesting to hear reports from those who get one.

Steve