@Ozzie - The coil question.

@Ozzie - You had asked me in the "Your one machine for coinshooting" thread about my reasoning for the concentric football over the 5in DD. I didn't want to hijack his topic and figured others would have something to say (or refute) as well. I'm a new guy around here so treading lightly.

I personally feel the concentric will pass a lateral test better when the objects are touching. Trash and treasure on the "same plane" right next to each other.

The DD will actually do better in a raised separation test..."nails above and side of the target". DD also does better in a true separation test where there is space in between the targets on a lateral plane and when recovery speed is added into the mix.

It's almost like a spot "in between" true masking and separation. Keith Southern uses the long nail test I have become a fan of. The same as Montes #2 spot on his nail test. I also like a long nail with a coin at the end touching it.

Plenty of detectors struggle with those two tests where the nail "touches" the coin. Whether it is on the side or the tip.

In that lateral "touching" scenario it is almost like a mixture of separation and unmasking. However, it is not true separation as there is no space between them...nor is it true unmasking as the trash is not directly above the target. No separation or masking are occurring in the true sense of the words.

Hope that makes sense?

Let me be clear in saying some detectors can pass it with a DD or a concentric. But many First Texas detectors will only pass that lateral test with a concentric....not a DD.

However, when switching to a raised nail test where the nails are "above and to the side"....the DD will pass but not the concentric. Again, it is not a true unmasking as the nails are not directly over the coin. More of a "raised separation" test.

So for a coin shooting permission at somebodies house like the other topic mentioned, I would prefer the concentric to hit lateral targets, followed by the 11DD for raised targets and deep targets both. I don't really "prefer" the tiny football concentric over the 5DD. Then both have their places. But to truly grid a lawn in this scenario I would want the small concentric to cherry pick the lateral...then the 11DD for the deep and separated stuff....instead of 2X DD's of different sizes.



If you have the time...here are a couple videos where I use FT machines and switch coils for both raised nails and a long nail. It is at the tip of the nail...not the side like Montes #2 spot...but as you can see there is a big difference from just a coil change with some of them.

Like all tests...they are not perfect and should be taken with a grain of salt. No detector is perfect...no coil is perfect...no test is perfect. I am definitely not perfect.

I actually made them to "poke fun" at some videos that Calabash Digger made with his XP Deus. It struggled with these tests and a few $200-300 range detectors from FT did quite well. He went right back to "the Deus is deeper" defense which is true. However when talking about these "specific" tests there is a difference. I made these videos in response to his as we like to poke fun at each other sometimes. But they help show you my "train of thought" so to speak.

The lateral nail test = [www.youtube.com] (20 minute video so only watch when you have time)

The raised nail test = [www.youtube.com] (20 minute video to only watch when you have time)

These videos were in response to these videos from Calabash Digger found here.

Raised nail XP Dues vs Racer 2 = [www.youtube.com]

Lateral Nail test F75, ML 705, XP Deus = [www.youtube.com]

My YouTube - [www.youtube.com]
Website - [www.thehuntergt.com]

Wow! Talk about going out of your way,.... above and beyond is another way of saying it.
I will watch the vids at a more convenient time.Thank you sir!

Good post Hunter GT.

If we could have detected these 1850s sites in 1880,,would a concentric coil swing for swing have found more nonferrous vs a dd coil ?

Using very good performing detector like Rutus alter71 with concentric coil.

I say yes.

Unfortunately the year is 2017.

A tidbit of info to share,

I have four sites that have been beat to depth using dd coils smaller up to stock coil size using some very good detectors,
Applying Rutus and concentric coil to these sites, all only yielded 3-4 nonferrous finds.
And beleive it or not, these finds using the Rutus surfaced in a very short period of time(first hunt of site).
Repeated hunts have been negative on nonferrous finds.

So it leads me to believe a person can roam around in a site using a dd coil and with various applied approach angles to the ground, some finds will maybe come to light moreso vs using a concentric coil. (Already hard hunted previously).

The catch here is (obviously), it only takes one nonferrous find (the right one) to hit the jackpot.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2017 03:18PM by Sod-buster.

@Ozzie. My pleasure man. Glad to be of service.

@Sod-Buster. If we could have hunted in the late 1800's or early 1900's even...I have no doubt a machine like the Alter 71 with a concentric would clean up without much need for a DD to follow it.

However, like you mention - the trash levels of today almost make it a must to use different types of coils...different sizes of coils...and even different machines if you want to call a place "hunted out" so to speak.

There are absolutely machines that can pass a raised nail test with a concentric coil...and many DD's that can pass the lateral test. It takes multiple grid passes from multiple coils and detectors to find it all.

That being said....if I had pick one or the other....I would quickly choose the DD. In my video above NO concentric from a First Texas machine could pass that raised nail test. Only the DD's. However...the DD's could in turn go pass the lateral long nail test as well.

My YouTube - [www.youtube.com]
Website - [www.thehuntergt.com]

Lateral vs Vertical.

Very interesting way of looking at things and experimenting with coils that would be better at one scenario vs the other.

Will definitely watch the videos.

I have both an F75 LTD and Deus. Had them for a while now and the reason I have both is because I cannot make the determination of which one I would sell if needed. I am mostly a beach hunter and coin shooter, but I do like tot lot picking. In that scenario I have found that targets are more laterally located than vertical. After reading the post I think getting the concentric small 'football' coil would help the F75 in those spots. I had the bigger concentric but did not like it that much. Always used the small DD coil for the tot lot stuff. Gonna get the small concentric now and have a go at it.

As always, it's horses for courses. Hunting spots, conditions, etc. always dictate what tools you need for the job. It's great in this day and age we detectorists have an array of products and accessories to help us get the most out of a detecting day. In the end it's always about the machine and coil combo you feel most comfortable with (obviously conditions dictate...salt water beach hunting as an example...don't use your trusty go to Tejon when you have a CTX ! ) and have the most confidence in. I believe the psychological aspect of the game is very important.

Thank you for the very informative post. Good to have you aboard on the forum.

If you want to be alerted to more targets without the multiple passes and griding, you could use the Rutus/AKA's or other units that run both AM/disc channels at the same time, the AM channel will alert you to any possible targets from any approach angle, it's then upto the users to turn 90% etc and work the signal to decide if it's dig/don't dig.
I certainly pickup much more targets this way, like say it's just at the end of a swing the AM starts to catch a target, I'll side step and check it out, or it's real deep and you have to walk around it to get the disc channel to sound off.



TheHunterGT Wrote:
> There are absolutely machines that can pass a rais
> ed nail test with a concentric coil...and many DD'
> s that can pass the lateral test. It takes multi
> ple grid passes from multiple coils and detectors
> to find it all.

Quote
therover61
Lateral vs Vertical.

Very interesting way of looking at things and experimenting with coils that would be better at one scenario vs the other.

Will definitely watch the videos.

I have both an F75 LTD and Deus. Had them for a while now and the reason I have both is because I cannot make the determination of which one I would sell if needed. I am mostly a beach hunter and coin shooter, but I do like tot lot picking. In that scenario I have found that targets are more laterally located than vertical. After reading the post I think getting the concentric small 'football' coil would help the F75 in those spots. I had the bigger concentric but did not like it that much. Always used the small DD coil for the tot lot stuff. Gonna get the small concentric now and have a go at it.

As always, it's horses for courses. Hunting spots, conditions, etc. always dictate what tools you need for the job. It's great in this day and age we detectorists have an array of products and accessories to help us get the most out of a detecting day. In the end it's always about the machine and coil combo you feel most comfortable with (obviously conditions dictate...salt water beach hunting as an example...don't use your trusty go to Tejon when you have a CTX ! ) and have the most confidence in. I believe the psychological aspect of the game is very important.

Thank you for the very informative post. Good to have you aboard on the forum.

Thank you. Happy to be here. I could not agree more that it is a good thing to have coil choices (and detector choices) in this hobby. No one coil or machine does it all and and most likely never will.

Also very good point that plenty of this hobby is mental. A frustrated detectorist...or one who lacks confidence....is in for a very long day of not paying attention and passing up targets. I am guilty of that myself on occasion.

Quote
ghound
If you want to be alerted to more targets without the multiple passes and griding, you could use the Rutus/AKA's or other units that run both AM/disc channels at the same time, the AM channel will alert you to any possible targets from any approach angle, it's then upto the users to turn 90% etc and work the signal to decide if it's dig/don't dig.
I certainly pickup much more targets this way, like say it's just at the end of a swing the AM starts to catch a target, I'll side step and check it out, or it's real deep and you have to walk around it to get the disc channel to sound off.

Never tried a Rutus or AKA....or a machine that runs AM and disc at the same time. It does sound interesting and I can absolutely see how that would be of benefit at a site without much trash. However, at a heavily infested iron/foil/alum site - I cannot imagine working every AM zip. Sites that sound like machine gun fire in AM are the days I thank the engineers for good disc circuits.

My YouTube - [www.youtube.com]
Website - [www.thehuntergt.com]

Your correct Hunter, i've a busy medieval site where i skirt around the edges running the AM/Disc channels, when it gets to the brain freeze stage i drop out the AM channel and go with a simple 2 or 3 tone.
But having these options is the bonus, especially for deep targets as the AM gives you that edge.

TheHunterGT Wrote:
---------------------------------------
> Never tried a Rutus or AKA....or a machine that ru
> ns AM and disc at the same time. It does sound in
> teresting and I can absolutely see how that would
> be of benefit at a site without much trash. Howe
> ver, at a heavily infested iron/foil/alum site - I
> cannot imagine working every AM zip. Sites that s
> ound like machine gun fire in AM are the days I th
> ank the engineers for good disc circuits.