Coins And Sink Rate Fact Or Fiction????

Hi all,, Let me first start off by saying that I was a little skeptical about Tom's sink rate philosophy ....That is until a couple of years ago,when I witnessed a real eye opener that changed my skepticisms and beliefs forever....Please allow me to briefly elaborate a little here....I was detecting an older location and doing quite nicely pulling everything from wheats to barber & seated dimes,injuns,two cent pieces,shield nickels just to name a few... And quite frankly I was very,very happy with my success...I was really enjoying myself plus I was pulling most of these old gems from depths ranging anywhere from 3"-8" deep (using my older Garrett detector)....(now the eye opener) I was detecting in a park located on the outskirts of the city (same location)....Well the city officials decided that they needed to put in a paved bicycle and walking trail that virtually lead to nowhere....During the process they scraped and removed the top 12"(approximately) of top soil about 8' wide(approximately)....Yeah you guessed it....I waited until they all went home (5pm) and went down the scraped path and done some some detecting. Man I was just sitting there a shaking and drooling at this golden opportunity to rape this virgin strip of real estate of it's hidden delights...(reality) I really did not pull any more OLDER coins than I previously pulled..But the ones I did pull ranged around the same era I even pulled some wheats again to boot....I thought I might get some even OLDER coins down this newly scraped path. It is my best guess that this site was just not even used until around the same era the coins were dated....The lesson learned here is,that the coins did actually exist below the 12" level...This was all unbeknownst (lol) to me until the city had done their little handy work....I was very ecstatic with my finds that day and could not be any happier.... So in closing I can unequivocally concur with Tom's insight and sink rate philosophy....(note to self)....If you really want to achieve excellence in this fascinating hobby we call Metal Detecting,,,,keep your eyes and ears open at all times and never stop learning....JJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 07:01PM by jimmyjiver.

Great post! I wish I had could find a spot like that! How many more coins did you pull from this 8' path and how deep were they, compared to the new surface level?

Thanks,

Idreamin3D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great post! I wish I had could find a spot like
> that! How many more coins did you pull from this
> 8' path and how deep were they, compared to the
> new surface level?
>
> Thanks,


Hi, Not nearly as many coins (darn) lol....also they did seem to average quite a bit shallower....Thanks for your interest....JJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 07:08PM by jimmyjiver.

I have validated this phenomenon time-n-time again.........so much so.......that I specifically look for construction sites.

I hit a hunted out park up here last year, the park date to 1877, never found anything old there, the redid the playground there and skimmed off a foot of dirt about the size of a football field, I hunted it til the rolled the soil back on, there was an old coke ash dump there with many old bottles and I dug over 10 silver coins too, and 4 of them were seated dimes, from 1875 to 1888, whish I had the Pro then , I might have squeezed out a couple of more things, the dimes rang in as nickles, so much trash in the ground

I have a few small apartment buildings in Indianapolis on a very buy street.A few years ago the gas company turned off the gas to replace street gas lines.They turned the gas back on after finishing and then turned it back off after finding gas leaks.The gas company inspector said that all the traffic including large trucks constant vibrations on the street gradually loosens the pipes over the years.I guess that is why I find memorial cents at 10 inches or so on the front street lawn.

Anywhere dirt is moved is worth a try as always remember the two nice Barber dimes after they ripped out a large pole in our 100 year plus park. Also when they ran a new pipe line across a 1800's field recreation field I hunted the dirt line and found an 1825 quarter 1852 large cent and a 1800's sterling religious medal verified by an expert..
Also remember coins may sink but in wooded areas the leaves rot and add inches to their depth.
Heres a question for the forum if a silver dime and silver half were dropped at same time...100 years later which would be deeper..?
Theoretically they should be close in depth providing one wasn't stopped by an obstruction as although the dime is much lighter has less surface and although the half is heavier more surface. Any ideas on this one guys and gals...

Well...if sink is based on Galileo's falling objects....... of different masses .........gravity experiments off the Tower of Pisa...........I would say sink rate is the same for objects of different mass..

Opinions please on how frost effects sink rate. I propose that frost (24" deep hard frozen ground for 4 months straight) up here in the North tends to expand the ground and move the coinage upward. Ever notice how farmers continuously are raking rocks year after year, for decades, from their fields. They aren't falling from the heavens every year. I believe this partially explains why I find a buffalo nickel and a barber dime at 2" to 4" deep in a untouched ball field while at the same time digging 1982 dimes from 7". Or why I find mercs laying on the surface for all eyes to see.

Thoughts?

Yes, yes, I've noticed the rock problem. Very noticable where I live.

Great thread. Ever since I read Tom's article about sink rate and the pull tab 1962 strata I have always tried to see if a particular spot worth hunting based on this. However, there are parks where I find some pull tabs and the late 19th and early 20th century coins at the same depth, and not sure how to explain that besides the fact that ground conditions are very localized and the sink rate can vary even every few feet. So if it was as easy as looking at the pull tab strata or other coins to determine the sink rate of a park to decide whether a place is worth hunting it could save a lot of time, but I think there are too many variables and you could miss old coins.

I do wonder how the pull tabs manage to sink at all when they are so light, and perhaps it is what another member on here stated, about being covered up rather then sinking.

Just my 2 cents

My old house which I moved from 6 years ago had a small 'test garden' close to a pine tree in the back yard. In 1972 or 1973 I buried a silver dime/quarter/half and a penny and a nickel.They started out at 4" deep. Back then that was pretty deep for detectors. It came in real handy over the years. Before I moved I dug up the quarter and half and they were down pretty darn deep. Could not detect the dime/nickel/penny with the last detector I had (CZ-7) even with the 10 1/2" loop on. Getting a new CZ-3D shortly but I doubt if the new owner would apprecite me digging up his yard looking for them.

Hi all,, Ponder these thoughts would an earthquake cause coins to sink deeper,especially in an earthquake prone area due to the vibration of the earth or do they come up closer to the surface???? Would and do ground moles push coins up or down???? Would and does frost heave coins up or down????....JJ

Dan-Pa. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anywhere dirt is moved is worth a try as always
> remember the two nice Barber dimes after they
> ripped out a large pole in our 100 year plus park.
> Also when they ran a new pipe line across a 1800's
> field recreation field I hunted the dirt line and
> found an 1825 quarter 1852 large cent and a 1800's
> sterling religious medal verified by an expert..
> Also remember coins may sink but in wooded areas
> the leaves rot and add inches to their depth.
> Heres a question for the forum if a silver dime
> and silver half were dropped at same time...100
> years later which would be deeper..?
> Theoretically they should be close in depth
> providing one wasn't stopped by an obstruction as
> although the dime is much lighter has less surface
> and although the half is heavier more surface. Any
> ideas on this one guys and gals...

Hi,, Good question,,honestly I have not pulled enough halves to give a good 100% correct answer....But the halves that I have pulled seemed to be deeper...Probably because of the sink rate and due to the size of the halves I was able to still get a good signal on them and not the smaller dimes etc......JJ

Negative on 2 out of 3. Moles/burrowing critters do move coins........I spent years detecting in CA. Earthquake theory might apply if detecting directly on a fault line......and the frost heave theory (downward/upward), I never bought into (my personal opinion with no hard facts to back it up). Ground movement theories operate on the premise that only the coin moves upward/downwards, while the soil surrounding the coin somehow magically stays stationary in relation to the coin. To me, that defies the laws of physics.

agaucufe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Opinions please on how frost effects sink rate. I
> propose that frost (24" deep hard frozen ground
> for 4 months straight) up here in the North tends
> to expand the ground and move the coinage upward.
> Ever notice how farmers continuously are raking
> rocks year after year, for decades, from their
> fields. They aren't falling from the heavens every
> year. I believe this partially explains why I find
> a buffalo nickel and a barber dime at 2" to 4"
> deep in a untouched ball field while at the same
> time digging 1982 dimes from 7". Or why I find
> mercs laying on the surface for all eyes to see.
>
> Thoughts?

Hi, I believe frost heaves coins up closer to the surface....I know my father bitched me out once, he told me frost heaved a big rock up and asked me how come I did not grab a shovel and bury it yet......JJ

Interesting thread!----Don't see where anybody has mentioned the (burrowing) earth worms and their (possible) effects on coin sinkage.----Which brings to mind a question I have always wondered about & never yet researched.-----If in fact earthworms do have an effect on coin sink rate (and I believe they do)---what is the deepest earthworms would be (through out) the ground?---I realize that would depend on several factors---but wonder what the deepest would be?-----My curiousity is going to be the "death of me" yet!! laf-----------Del

Do a internet search on the giant earthworms in the Ande's of south america. There's your coin movers...........LOL

TerraDigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Negative on 2 out of 3. Moles/burrowing critters
> do move coins........I spent years detecting in
> CA. Earthquake theory might apply if detecting
> directly on a fault line......and the frost heave
> theory (downward/upward), I never bought into (my
> personal opinion with no hard facts to back it
> up). Ground movement theories operate on the
> premise that only the coin moves upward/downwards,
> while the soil surrounding the coin somehow
> magically stays stationary in relation to the
> coin. To me, that defies the laws of physics.

Hi, Ground moles around here push dirt up all the time,,sometimes perhaps 10" in spots...Rocks well I know around here something sure brings them to the surface,, believe me I have buried enough of them...Earthquakes I don't know the answer to that but I do know that gold dust in a gold pan when it is shaken will go to the bottom of the pan due to the specific gravity of gold....JJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 02:31AM by jimmyjiver.

NORMAL EARTH WORMS TerraDigger, NORMAL!!!-----You know, "normal" like you & me!!!! YEE HAW he he he

I was trying to be funny......I am a better detectorist than humorist...........and I agree with you about normal earthworms moving objects in the soil.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting thread!----Don't see where anybody has
> mentioned the (burrowing) earth worms and their
> (possible) effects on coin sinkage.----Which
> brings to mind a question I have always wondered
> about & never yet researched.-----If in fact
> earthworms do have an effect on coin sink rate
> (and I believe they do)---what is the deepest
> earthworms would be (through out) the ground?---I
> realize that would depend on several factors---but
> wonder what the deepest would be?-----My
> curiousity is going to be the "death of me" yet!!
> laf-----------Del

Hi,, Another good point earthworms....I wonder if the earthworms self-generated electricity would increase detection depth if they were really active on a given day or really an abundance of them in an area????....JJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 02:45AM by jimmyjiver.

I know you was TerraDigger & I thought it was very funny.---I was just trying to put a laugh in this thread also.-----Now speakin for myself--I don't know if I am a better detectorist than humorist or not!----May be a half a-- toss up at both--but I sure have a lot of fun trying.-----We all enjoy your posts---keep 'em coming!------------Del



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 02:52AM by D&P-OR.

Good heavens! we do "Dig Deep" on the factors and variables that effect our success or lack thereof! I've been hunting since about 1978 or so and have dug literally tens of thousands of coins. I've seen Walking liberty Halves at 2" - Wheat pennies on the surface - Dug a 20's Wheatie at 9" in the front yard of an older home and a Buffalo nickle at 3" in the back yard & coins only a decade or so old at 8" or more. My personal conclusion is that the variables that influence the "Sink rate" are more or less infinite. You guy's have listed many of these variables but I do think it's impossible to "eyeball" ANY area & determine a "sink rate" with any accuracy. YES, of course, search freshly graded or scraped ground & if there was past activity, you will find coins. I bet their were coins in the dirt that was scraped away as well & some just as old. Infinite factors and variables & the learning, searching and digging never stops! I love this hobby!

Been swingin' a White's since the 70's - 5 machines, Currently an XLT & Fisher F75 LE - 50,000 finds, 30,000 (or so) keepers. Published in the White's catalog. Always looking for good/decent hunting buds! Get in touch!

The height (thickness) of a coin........vs.........the diameter of the coin ((( this is measured via 'ratio' ))) is nearly identical when comparing the sink-rate of a half-dollar to a dime.......due to the fact that this ratio between the dime/half-dollar are nearly identical. Although...........a half-dollar covers a larger surface area..........allowing for a greater chance to hit a 'obstructing sink-rate decelerator'.

Yes, this entire Earth is dynamic....and everything is in 'motion'. A coin 'sinking' is only one minute' factor. The moving dirt.....due to wind/erosion, dust, grass clippings, leaf decomposition, vibration from man-made equipment (including cars), thunder storms.......wet soil, insects.....................yes...........infinite.

Frozen ground will cause 'motion'.....and can be in ANY direction; yet, the only direction that is 'obvious' to us.......are the items that are moved 'upward'. Pushed deeper.............and you will NEVER know it. . . . . thus ... making it impossible to "measure the unknown". Rocks are very low density........when compared to a coin. If you were to cut/shave a rock into the dimentions of a dime (same diameter and height).......it would be VERY light...as compared to the dime. Coins are high-density.........MUCH heavier than a rock.

A thick/dense root network/web can keep objects from sinking......and......in many cases.....as the roots 'seek' rainwater........may even push objects up closer to the surface whilst seeking rain/food.

In general..............heavy/high-density objects (such as gold, silver) do not like to 'float' upwards............and heavily bias towards a rapid 'sink'.

In much greater detail.....I cover this topic (density stratification) in the upcoming DVD.

Hi all,, Well since this thread is about dead I decided to formulate my own half baked conclusions. I think it's safe to say that everyone is in agreement that coins can and do sink in the ground....The 96 dollar question seems to be how far in the ground does a coin sink and at what rate?..I believe that when soil conditions are just right a coin will continue to sink deeper and deeper into the unknown zone..I also believe that there is no magical formula that we can apply to determine how fast or far a coin will sink into the ground. There is just to many variables at play to draw any conclusions nor can we apply a mathematical equation that would work in all regions.How far or how fast will a coin sink in a hundred years? It's anyones guess,it's a crap shoot at best..All you can do is try a place out and see what depth the coins are averaging out at...If your pulling clad at let's say 8" deep,it's a good guess that the older coins are going to be deeper yet....Personally I would move on....I am currently detecting a spot that is 150 years old, this place has a mixture of soils clay,sand,gravel and black dirt...One important soil composition in this area is clay it can be found from the surface to about 12" deep or more..The clay actually determines the sink rate and how deep the coins will be found here..There is two soil compositions that don't really belong here naturally on this piece of ground. These different soils were brought in by man and they are the sand (for fill) and the gravel (for driveways)...The black dirt is the magic key to finding the older coins in this area that I am currently working... Where the clay is real shallow you will find very few coins if any. Keep in mind that there is also a couple of inches of top soil on top of this clay layer..Any coins that might have been in the shallow clay layer are long gone and in the pockets of any previous detectorists (the coins don't sink in the clay). Here's how the soil stacks up in this area that I'm currently working....Black dirt then clay (old coins average 6"- unknown zone?"),,clay and more clay (shallow coins if any),,sand,black dirt then clay (mainly clad coins the older coins are too deep to reach) and lastly gravel,black dirt then clay (medium depth but the coins sound off terrible)..The real basic key to finding the older gems in this area is the black dirt,because it has not been disturbed and is still in it's natural state...In closing I just want to say that coin sink rate & depth can be and is also changed by mankind too....Also coin sink rate and depth probably varies from one location to the next and even a foot away could make a big difference. Will any of us succeed in finding the older coins etc.? It all depends on the sink rate gods plus research, location,equipment and let's not forget skill and a little luck to boot....Thanks....JJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2011 11:30PM by jimmyjiver.

Coins don't sink in clay? Well, looks like I will be looking for places where clay is!

Hi, I'm not talking about powdery type clay soil. I'm talking about clay that is like modeling clay but denser and sometimes hard...Even gold around here will be found laying on top of the clay layer..In some places around here even Mastodon's etc.bones have been found and they became extinct about 11000 years ago...They did not sink below the clay layer (bedrock?) I have no actual proof that a coin will not sink into clay it's just my opinion and makes good sense....JJ

I know what you mean but clay of this sort is hard to find where I hunt, sounds like a good spot for you to detect for sure!

Clay strata seems to represent the 'bedrock' on our beach which we would have never know but for the hurricanes of 04. We found hundreds of early and TOC coins, gold rings and lead toys on the top 1-2 inches of a yellow clay materia for weeks after the storm, until the tides came in enough times to deposit sand back over it until it became too deep to detect that level anymore. Best conditions the beach has ever had here.