CZ 21 OR EXCALL ll ???

Someone please enlighten me on the CZ 21 … I like the idea of having a 3 tone machine underwater that has a iron tone. I dont really like the way the Excal reports iron.Does anyone know how the recovery speed is on the CZ 21?

One thing that some people didn't care for, in the CZ21, was the silent search. Ie.: No threshold. Also, it was a bit more prone to get fooled on deep bent nails. Ie.: you would be forever trying to evaluate 1 way signals. You could simply ignore anything that didn't repeat, but then have nagging doubts: "Is that a super deep coin that's only hitting one way ? " But other wise: Good in wet salt . Super deep, very easy to learn.

The Excal had a threshold (ie.: wasn't silent search). But yes, some people found the sounds/tones to be annoying. It was also good in wet salt , and also deep-seeking. So there was pro's & con's to each.

I like the silent search, I cut my threshold down on Excal ….. I love the high tone of the Excal but dont like the way you have to run it to hear the iron…..I would like to be able to map the iron on a underwater site like I do on land. Hence that is why I was looking at a 3 tone machine...so I could hear the iron in real time under the coil.....

I jumped between a CZ20 and excal for awhile.
I always hated the way the Excal came back with loud iron hit making the threshold give me a headache I had to keep resetting it with the shovel to get it normal again.
I like the way the CZ hit on targets better but did end up in the long run staying with the EXCAL for the multi tones.
Not much help for you I know lol but I would pick up a cheap CZ 20 or borrow one to try out before buying a CZ21 at the price they want.

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the silent search, I cut my threshold down
> on Excal ….. I love the high tone of the Excal b
> ut dont like the way you have to run it to hear th
> e iron…..I would like to be able to map the iron o
> n a underwater site like I do on land. Hence that
> is why I was looking at a 3 tone machine...so I co
> uld hear the iron in real time under the coil.....

Calabash: It's been a LONG time since I've used an Excal, but .... correct me if I'm wrong, but rejected iron would give you a null, when in disc. mode. However, if you've gone down to no threshold, then you're right: You would be unaware when you're passing iron. But if you had a threshold, then you'd know when you're passing iron, since there'd be a null.

But I agree that I'd rather have iron give a tone. Not a reject threshold drop-out. And yes, to have to go into all-metal mode (and perpetually cross-check) is a pain. For these reasons, I'd much prefer the successors to the Excal, if I needed waterproof. Eg.: CTX, Nox, etc..... Then you have more choices in your audio set-up.

Another thing I didn't like about the Excal (but forced myself to get used to), was the annoying long audio "tail". Rather than quick concise "beeps". But .... that's just personal tastes I guess.

Calabash,

I have been using CZ's since they first came out. I like them a lot for any type of hunting.

The recovery speed on a CZ is pretty fast, especially when using the 5 or 8 inch coils. The 10.5 coil is a unique coil in it's design. Not sure what coil option you would be looking at, but I hunt with the 8 inch coil about 90% of the time. I think that is the optimal coil for a CZ, but that's just me opinion.

Running in 0 discriminate mode has a big advantage in that you can hear the low iron tone, and will not get fooled by iron wrap for the most part. There will be lots of times when bigger iron will wrap into the high tone area, ringing out low and high tones when sweeping. If you hunt in discrimination modes 1 or higher, you eliminate hearing the low tone of iron and will only hear the high tone on iron wrapping and get fooled a lot. I pretty much learned the hard way and figured out fairly quickly. You get used to it, even in high iron areas, and hearing a nice mellow high tone in between all the low tones is always a nice surprise. The more and more one uses a CZ, the more you can tell the harsher high tones of iron versus the more mellow high tones of silver. Hard to explain, but experienced CZ users know what I am talking about.

The modulated audio is a nice feature too. 3 tones makes it simple, which I like. CZ21's are built very well and will withstand lots of wear n tear.

All metal mode is kinda like having a threshold, but it's not a real threshold. All metal will make the entire coil very reactive and you can sweep faster. But it does not go much, if any, deeper than discriminate mode ( at least that is what I have found on all the CZ's I have used and own....I currently have 6 CZ's in the stable).

Silent search, 3 tones, concentric coil, manual GB,..those are features that you may like . A CZ21 just may fit in your stable as a unit you may end up liking...especially water hunting.

Each is old school but time/experience can make a world of difference. From what you have described with a choice of those only......going small coil CZ21 would be the best since you want to hear the iron. Also very deep (good) targets with the CZ will come up as iron.

I do have a friend that dives with his NOX and does well, seems the NOX with a small coil would be a better choice.

Very good vis but tones are all you need. And he has been down to 15 feet with his NOX with no issues.


Blood Member of RingKeepers
2020......Gold Rings....73....Misc Gold 1 .......Silvers ...110



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2019 03:45PM by OBN.

OBN Wrote:

> Also very deep (good) targets with the CZ will come up as iron.
>
Very good point OBN.

That's where the modulated audio can help, as the deeper targets can be determined via the audio.

One other point I forgot to mention (probably because I don't use it much), is the VCO pin point. It can help in sizing targets if you can master it. On the CZ21,the pin point button works different than the CZ20. I only have CZ20 and never used a CZ21, so I cannot vouch for how well the CZ21 pin point button works.

therover61 Wrote:
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>
> One other point I forgot to mention (probably beca
> use I don't use it much), is the VCO pin point. It
> can help in sizing targets if you can master it.

That's one reason I love the PP/Disc button on the excalibur, Size, Shape, depth of the target can be determined in flash hunting in All metal. Then a quick push of the button to get the disc info and back to pp..

At one time I considered Modifying a CZ the same way.

Blood Member of RingKeepers
2020......Gold Rings....73....Misc Gold 1 .......Silvers ...110

OBN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also very deep (good) targets with the CZ wi
> ll come up as iron.
>
>

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> That's where the modulated audio can help, as the
> deeper targets can be determined via the audio.
>
> One other point I forgot to mention (probably beca
> use I don't use it much), is the VCO pin point. It
> can help in sizing targets if you can master it. ...

Yes there were audio "tricks" that CZ users employed to overcome the admitted hurdle of super deep coins and bent nails giving the same one-way-beep. Eg.: cross check in all-metal mode, to see if the pinpoint was in the same location, etc..... No doubt .... yes ... there were tricks. But .... nagging doubts seemed to send them digging a bunch "just to be sure". The Excal's disc. function, on the other hand, never had problems with nails. They could be effortlessly passed, and told-apart from deep coin-whispers.

So each machine had their strengths and weaknesses.

I like the 8 inch coil option.My buddy has a excal with a 8 inch coil and spanks me on finds. BTW the Equinox is not loud enough to dive with. I have after market phones and they are still not loud enough. Plus I am diving 20 to 30 ft … I wish the Nox was loud enough.... I went back over shallow water sites loaded with iron and killed it where others had hunted for years...

therover61 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OBN Wrote:
>
> > Also very deep (good) targets with the CZ will
> come up as iron.
> >
> Very good point OBN.
>
> That's where the modulated audio can help, as the
> deeper targets can be determined via the audio.



My experience concerning the CZ20/21 giving low tones on very deep non-ferrous targets is that it will only do that in saltwater or on wet salt sand. Away from salt, the target ID on non-ferrous targets is perfectly accurate.

Wet salt pushes the depth capability well beyond what it can do in freshwater or on land. The non-ferrous low tones are an indication of that extra depth. My CZ20 has never given any low tones on deep non-ferrous away from saltwater. This may have something to do with the CZ20/21 being permanently set to reject salt. That is the environment where it performs best. With experience you learn to appreciate those non-ferrous low tones and can tell that the target is not iron.

I never use any discrimination with mine. Just 0 Disc or Autotune. I like to hear the entire signal, not just part of it

.



Edited 20 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2019 09:56PM by Badger in NH.

What the hell?
Is the world coming to an end?
Calabash is asking about the old ancient antiquated obsolete
Fisher CZ 21 Metal Detector.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2019 08:17PM by u2robert.

Where can I get the best deal on a CZ 21?

Check around on craigslist.
$500.00 for this one.
[maine.craigslist.org]

calabash digger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone please enlighten me on the CZ 21 … I like
> the idea of having a 3 tone machine underwater tha
> t has a iron tone. I dont really like the way the
> Excal reports iron.Does anyone know how the recove
> ry speed is on the CZ 21?


I would pass on both, go with a Pi.

Paul

Paul..... im trying to think of what PI you would suggest for a 30' dive...... i dont know that he said that but i know he got certified. Something like the aquapulse..... pricy.

I'll bet there are lots of dealers out there who would sell/order you one for $900. Call around for the best deal.

I would go with the 8 inch coil.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2019 07:27PM by Badger in NH.

IMO PI would be useless in the iron loaded sites I am in. I will be diving with it too..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2019 08:24PM by calabash digger.

Apolonio (CA) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calabash digger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Someone please enlighten me on the CZ 21 … I lik
> e
> > the idea of having a 3 tone machine underwater t
> ha
> > t has a iron tone. I dont really like the way th
> e
> > Excal reports iron.Does anyone know how the reco
> ve
> > ry speed is on the CZ 21?
>
>
> I would pass on both, go with a Pi.
>
> Paul

Go right head if you love to dig 13" bobby pins and fishing leaders.

u2robert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Go right head if you love to dig 13" bobby pins an
> d fishing leaders.


Haha, that's the old joke about the merits of beach pulse machines:

1) The "Good News" is that they are so sensitive, you can get a bobby pin at a foot deep !

2) The "Bad News" is that they are so sensitive, you can get a bobby pin at a foot deep !

Get an Excal because they look cool! And it has “Cal” right in the name! Seems like a good fit to me....

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul..... im trying to think of what PI you would
> suggest for a 30' dive...... i dont know that he s
> aid that but i know he got certified. Something
> like the aquapulse..... pricy.


Hello dewcon,

For depth using a Pi, I’d probably go with a Headhunter Pi with 8” coil. I’ve hunted in iron with Pi’s many times, even in fresh water. Pi will cut through the mineralization, get you the needed depth to dig targets beyond the reach of VLF or BBS.

A good buddy of mine, boy we dug a lot of Iron and trash but we also dug allot of gold jewelry VLF or BBS couldn’t detect. Mainly due to fresh water mineralization. Back in the day, PI was king in our area we didn’t care about digging iron.

Take care,
Paul

u2robert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apolonio (CA) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > calabash digger Wrote:
> > ------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -----
> > > Someone please enlighten me on the CZ 21 … I l
> ik
> > e
> > > the idea of having a 3 tone machine underwater
> t
> > ha
> > > t has a iron tone. I dont really like the way
> th
> > e
> > > Excal reports iron.Does anyone know how the re
> co
> > ve
> > > ry speed is on the CZ 21?
> >
> >
> > I would pass on both, go with a Pi.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Go right head if you love to dig 13" bobby pins an
> d fishing leaders.

A good Pi has its strengths, which can outweigh a waterproof VLF or Excalibur. In some cases, A Pi will get triple the depth of a waterproof VLF or BBS in hot fresh water black sand. I’ve seen many a time VLF ID a quarter as iron here on west coast fresh water, and that was near the surface.

Paul

But Paul...... hes wanting to dive with them most water machine are very limited as to how deep you can go. What i found with a PI ..... you not only dig all the iron and trash left by a PI.... but if you get into another layer ..... there can be tons more targets. Which many of us that water detect have found to be very time consuming. Here in Fl unlike you area.....its more about TIME and covering more of the water. You are right about the depth.... and there may well be LESS targets the deeper he hunts. He also will be fanning targets.

Apolonio (CA) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..... PI was king in
> our area we didn’t care about digging iron.
>


Paul, I'm not sure what type areas/locations you are talking about. But where I'm at (near the beach, Monterey bay, CA) I've seen guys try pulse before. And similarly, they will say "don't care about digging iron, because I want the super-sensitvity" . And I see those very same persons "sent packing" from nail-riddled beaches. They leave to find "greener grounds". And a week later, we see them sporting the latest discriminator machines, and that's the last we see of their pulse ambitions.

Perhaps in some cleaner touristy So. CA beaches, where nails aren't everywhere, then sure .... a pulse might have a place.

I have a cool looking Excal already.....

Tom,

It’s fresh water areas I’m referring too, West Coast fresh water lakes and rivers. Especially here in the valley, Black sand reduces depth with VLF, BBS/FBS technology. Pi is what we were successful with, yes we dug a lot of iron but we also dug a lot of gold jewelry and old silver coins beyond the reach of VLF, BBS/FBS.

West Coast ocean, agree I prefer BBS/FBS technology over a pi. Funny how it’s quite the opposite, BBS/FBS for ocean wet sand is terrific, but when this same technology hits harsh inland fresh water sand the black sand is too much.

A good local friend and I, are now experimenting with the Tarsacci for inland fresh water. We both have the Tarsacci, from personal experiences so far the Tarsacci handles black sand extremely well. Deeper than the Equinox, with very good stability.

Wish Minelab would make a waterproof GPX, boy that would be great. For now, Tarsacci is my non-Pi deep seeker.

HH, Paul

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apolonio (CA) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ..... PI was king in
> > our area we didn’t care about digging iron.
> >
>
>
> Paul, I'm not sure what type areas/locations you a
> re talking about. But where I'm at (near the bea
> ch, Monterey bay, CA) I've seen guys try pulse bef
> ore. And similarly, they will say "don't care ab
> out digging iron, because I want the super-sensitv
> ity" . And I see those very same persons "sent
> packing" from nail-riddled beaches. They leave t
> o find "greener grounds". And a week later, we se
> e them sporting the latest discriminator machines,
> and that's the last we see of their pulse ambition
> s.
>
> Perhaps in some cleaner touristy So. CA beaches, w
> here nails aren't everywhere, then sure .... a pul
> se might have a place.

Paul...….. as crazy as this question may sound = On your Tarsacci…. are you hunting with Black Sand "on"?
And...…. I would also like to know...….. is your Salt Mode "on" or off?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul...….. as crazy as this question may sound = O
> n your Tarsacci…. are you hunting with Black Sand
> "on"?
> And...…. I would also like to know...….. is your S
> alt Mode "on" or off?


Hello Tom,

Fortunately, I’m not needing to use Both Black sand mode or Salt mode on. That’s been the last two previous river hunts, but that can change depending on location. My buddy Denny, he scored a beautiful ladies gold ring recently, he’s out there more than I am.

Wish I had more time to hunt, way too many things going on.

Thanks for asking Tom!
Paul