Socialism or ?

I'm not one that per say supports socialism in it's purest form, I believe for a society everyone should pull their weight, and no body should be leaching off the system, although there should certainly be some safety nets built-in.

Socialism as per the Oxford dictionary definition is:

A set of political and economic theories based on the belief that everyone has an equal right to a share of a country's wealth and that the government should own and control the main industries

Compare - capitalism, communism, social democracy


With the current state of events, and all of the recent political bantering around what is and is not Socialism, it appears that the very topic that's been bantered around over the past few years is about to take place on a massive scale like we've never seen in the history of the U.S.A:

$1000 "stimulus checks" - Socialism or ?

White House plans hundreds of billions in stimulus - Socialism or ?

The White House is saying free testing for all - Socialist medicine ?

It seems like a political football that's conveniently leveraged when trying to discredit, yet on the flip side, when a "benefit" is coming to the same likes equating socialism to communism, I suspect they don't refuse it.

Why is that?

I've not heard President Trump say the government is taking ownership of all businesses??

A lot of Dems are elated about the 'Chinese Flu' because they will blame it all on President Trump and nothing he'll do will suit them. He's doing everything that he can to appease everyone so he can get reelected. It's really bad that he's being forced to do that but it will be worth it if he gets reelected and appoints 2 more conservative Supreme Court Justices. That's a huge long-term win for our country.

tabman

A reality is that our country has been taught to live to far on the edge...we are allowed to borrow too much from banks for our homes and cars and college. We are allowed to build up huge credit card bills in general, as the card companies are willing to live on the margins and write off plenty of losses because they know they will still make money. Now that we are in a crises, the fact that many do not have any savings and cannot weather an interruption to income, panic is due not only to illness but also fiscal ruin.

Soooo...if the government does nothing, it will certainly hurt everyone in the short term...and we know that for the past 30 years, politicians have been allowed to not worry about the long term, so spending money the government doesnt have is the path of least resistance.

I must disclose though...i do very much benefit from one form of socialism. If I didnt have access to secondary insurance (State of PA) for my daughters health needs, I am fairly certain the hospital/cardiology/surgeon bills over the last 8 years would have crushed my family.

as long as our leaders are more interested in power than actually "for the people" things will never change.

If anyone gets a stimulus check it is only the partial return of the fruit of their own labor that Washington confiscated. It was intended to buy votes or be wasted in some frivolous manner by politicians. Instead, it goes back to its rightful owner. It's a convoluted journey but it's a small step in the right direction. Funny how politicians on both sides can agree that if the citizenry has more of their own money in the form of a one-time stimulus it is great for the economy, causing it to expand; yet the idea of perpetually keeping taxes low and markets unfettered is anathema to most politicians.

wow

This country has always been partly socialistic. Road systems, education, police & fire protection, military, air & sea ports, and libraries are a few examples. We pay taxes for these "public benefits," but this year we will only pay 80% of the cost of these benefits. The other 20% will be charged to the National Credit Card.

If we get a $1000 check, that is not a return of money you earned, rather it is money that someone else will have to earn in the future, because it will all go on the National Credit Card. There is no $1 trillion in spare money floating around somewhere to return to the taxpayers. Not only is it already spent, it is already over-spent. What we are doing to future generations is truly criminal.

I have no doubt that Trump & Republicans will champion a huge public bailout, but not for the right reasons. Trump's #1 concern is the stock market; that is his ticket to re-election, and we all know that whatever it is that Trump does, he does it first and foremost with himself in mind. However, it is a similar situation to 2008... do you let GM go under and lose 1 million jobs? Or Boeing this time? As in 2008, most of these companies have made bad fiscal decisions over the years that left them unable to survive something like this and, as always, lessons are never learned. Same thing with individuals. So if we eventually get a $1000 check, or Boeing gets a bail-out, be sure to thank the grandkids for their generosity. They have a lot to pay for.

Hmm,
Interesting thread with comments here.

Guess I'll share my thoughts.

From the beginning of his candidacy Pres Trump was talking border security and China's domination in the world markets.

Let's all remember it was Trump who pulled the fire alarm for China's being allowed to become so dominant. Not Hillary or Not Biden.

It was also Trump who pulled fire alarm on our southern border lack of security. Not Hillary or Not Biden. Just think the Dems got a break didn't they? Just think, wonder if this corona virus would have have been hatched in Mexico and spread to USA, and Mexico like China would have kept it secret for a period? I always believed border security just for health reasons (disease alone) was a good reason for having worthy border security. At least usually folks with passports we know we they have been country wise versus illegals who have crossed say the southern border.

So Trump likes to see the stock market booming. What's wrong with that? See the comment where the market needs to be flourishing for him to be reelected. Don't think so. Why?
Folks when they go to the polls will be voting on who was more right as far as predicting the future (and the recent past). If this is the case this is Trump being reelected, Not Biden for sure.

Trump certainly can't change everything handed him in Jan 2017 in 3 years or 4 years. It is a good thing the economy was in the shape it was before this Corona virus took its first bites at this economy.

So, Trump not young by no means. He is answering as well as routing persons to answer questions for the press. How is he doing? Considering his age and remember he has to keep up with more than just Corona virus he is doing good. Biden can't keep his train of thought and can't put 3 sentences together that even I can understand.

It is clear our government let us down. Poor planners is what we had back when. Remember the little guy in the middle of HW Bush and Clinton back in 1992. Brilliant little gent named Perot. He gave us his opinion of NAFTA. Turns out he was right.

Yeah we saw this impeachment garbage from the left. Everyone knows it was garbage. Why? Just look at Obama's hot microphone moment with Russia ambassador. It went unnoticed by Dems.

Say what you want. Trump has a better crystal ball than most other politicians.

Now the socialism part.
We will never have a totally fair system. Just look what just happened. Bloomberg actually did try to buy the election. He even admitted to buying the House in 2018 for the Dems with 100 million of his own dough - right on national tv.
What I am saying here is we have got into the frame of mind where we think we can buy our way out of anything really. Well having a stronger economy when something goes wrong is better than having a bad economy.

The press.
There are few smart folks IMO who have journalism majors and work for major news networks. Actually they don't report news anymore. Instead it appears they follow orders from their bosses (to keep their jobs) and have a political leaning to their whole approach process. Shameful really!!
I guess I could ask. Just which press people actually tried to enter China back in Dec 2019 and get the real scoop on what turned out to be called Corona? Naw they were too busy trying to trap Trump with the phony impeachment.
Some food for thought here. Might as well bring loser Bernie into the fold here. We have heard him harp on the socialism garbage. Medicare for all. Etc, etc.
So I guess I wonder, with all the illustrious press we have, how come none of them loaded up and actually went to these so-called socialism loaded countries and see the REAL deal. How are the people living, what do they think of their lives and how do they view USA from all they know?
I about fell out of my chair few days ago. Why? A presser actually asked Pres Trump about his family with a question about Baron and his thoughts and dealing with corona virus.
About time!! To see questions like this.

Bailout or Stimulus
Call it what you want
Personally I don't feel sorry for Boeing in the least. They were in trouble before this Corona virus. Their problem was not getting serious with their new Max jet. The one with the engines mounted so far forward. I guess I would ask, was there a reason engines were mounted only so far forward on jets? Due to physics, etc Yet Boeing violated and didn't even give due attention/ testing? Thinking maybe plane would be always corrected electronically. The big 3 auto companies seems were bad with Math. Handing out pension plans they couldn't even get close to honoring. Where do these CEOs and board members get their smarts from? You see the cause is lot of these CEOs and board member, lot like our politicians think just apply band aid and let future whatever folks have to worry about indebtedness. I call this scorched earth policy really. Corona virus not man made like the mistakes made by businesses as far as their investments and pension plans. We have not experienced what we have with Corona and been such a global power and have the world's economy so globalized. And have air planes flying all over. Big difference between now and 1918.

Math
I love math. I'm actually good at it. Guess this means I won't be running for elective office. Why? Most politicians (except) Trump don't practice or believe in Math. Instead fuzzy Math or some thing.

Social Media
Even as old is Trump was I think it fair to say he realized first the power of social media even moreso than the younger Pres Obama.
So is social media when it come's to corona virus a help or a hurt? I can see where immediate fads(habits) seem can be hatched on social media and catch fire. Like all this toilet paper being bought and hoarded.
Then the false info that is posted. No real designated truth checkers (or myth busters) on Internet.
Nice thing about this forum is we do have a team here who I think will weigh in and if some falsehood is tried to be spread a myth buster will weigh in.

So what does the future hold?
This Corona virus may actually put us in a better position in near future. Some ideas are already being hatched and implemented. For example, why don't we have a test we can take for Flu? Be nice wouldn't it to be able to not go to doctor's office to see if one has flu. Person doing being exposed on doctor's waiting room not good. Healthy folks with no symptoms of disease don' go here usually. Just the sick.

I can see our entire supply system being closely studied so we are not super dependent on any one region or country in the world. Us becoming oil independent under Trump was a good thing. This would NOT have happened under Hillary. And likely we would regress under Biden if elected.

I think we will know better were we stand in around 14 days. How widespread and where the hot spots are. And can take action to counter.

Cheers.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2020 06:53PM by tnsharpshooter.

TNSS---Cheers to you for hitting the nail on the head.

doc holiday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TNSS---Cheers to you for hitting the nail on the h
> ead.

+2!

tabman

doc holiday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TNSS---Cheers to you for hitting the nail on the h
> ead.


Ditto

I look at Trump this way;
With all the knowledgeable people he surrounds himself with, and, with all the knowledge he has access to.......he has the brain to weed out, add, subtract and put the correct things in order so as to solve a problem.....he is a very good leader....not because I say so....because of his actions...and his actions are in high gear, unlike what we are seeing of the Dems.

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> doc holiday Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TNSS---Cheers to you for hitting the nail on the
> h
> > ead.
>
>
> Ditto
>
> I look at Trump this way;
> With all the knowledgeable people he surrounds him
> self with, and, with all the knowledge he has acce
> ss to.......he has the brain to weed out, add, sub
> tract and put the correct things in order so as to
> solve a problem.....he is a very good leader....no
> t because I say so....because of his actions...and
> his actions are in high gear, unlike what we are s
> eeing of the Dems.

Well said.

Ditto what TNSS said. HH jim tn

Yes it comes from are taxes just like the Social Security they took or 'borrowed' against and have enough nerve to say they are going to cut it before it runs out. My Mom can barley live on what she gets and if not for My Sister and I she would starve. It is are money we paid into not a gift. I been working and paying in since a early teen so it double pisses me off
as I am getting close to getting it. And the fact people say you should have saved more does not make it right.

tabman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> doc holiday Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TNSS---Cheers to you for hitting the nail on the
> h
> > ead.
>
> +2!
>
> tabman


+3!

Well said TNSS

+ 4 ...... excellent evaluation .. TNSS ..

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes it comes from are taxes just like the Social S
> ecurity they took or 'borrowed' against and have e
> nough nerve to say they are going to cut it before
> it runs out. My Mom can barley live on what she ge
> ts and if not for My Sister and I she would starve
> . It is are money we paid into not a gift. I been
> working and paying in since a early teen so it dou
> ble pisses me off
> as I am getting close to getting it. And the fact
> people say you should have saved more does not mak
> e it right.


Yeah, well, thats the end result of all socialism and socialist programs.

======================================================

You can see my videos here: [www.youtube.com]
My blog is here: [thesilverfiend.com]

======================================================

silverfiend Wrote:
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> Yeah, well, thats the end result of all socialism
> and socialist programs.

Just like the socialist government bailout of the crappy US automakers, and the socialist government handouts, I mean "subsidies", to the farmers.

Let them go under and be replaced. That's true capitalism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2020 08:24PM by dave_e.

dave_e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> silverfiend Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Yeah, well, thats the end result of all socialism and socialist programs.
>
> Just like the socialist government bailout of the crappy US automakers, and the socialist government handouts, I mean "subsidies", to the farmers.
> Let them go under and be replaced. That's true capitalism.


We definitely don't live in a true capitalism system, just like we don't live in a democracy, we actually live in a republic.

The label of socialism pops up when convenient for the sheep-like followers.
Maybe we should get rid of bankruptcy laws that bailout deadbeats and bring back debtors prison?
What about “disability”? Plenty of sheep that didn’t plan and save for retirement use that bailout as retirement.
Sheep love socialism when it’s painted in the color they’re comfortable with.

In a pure capitalistic system it is "every man for himself." No safety nets, no regulations, no attempt at level playing fields. The rich would win massively. Everyone else... eh, not so much. We keep getting closer, BTW.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In a pure capitalistic system it is "every man for
> himself." No safety nets, no regulations, no attem
> pt at level playing fields. The rich would win mas
> sively. Everyone else... eh, not so much. We keep
> getting closer, BTW.

YUP x 10

I'm not liking it at all. Store shelves empty. Govt officials mandatory closing businesses, parks, even beaches. I saw where the Florida governor shut down the beaches for spring breakers, and said the beaches would have to comply with current CDC instructions of no groups, and that police would be patrolling and enforcing via ATVs. The place I work operates 24/7, 365 days a year. It is over time, all the time. The last few weeks, the Flu type A and some stomach virus was running rampant through the factory. And they didn't bat an eye to keep running or even consider shutting down. The department I work in, with 3 shifts, has 21 people..or 7 per shift. Last week, only 3 reported to work for all shifts. I was one of the 3...and we still had to run a skeleton crew, and work over to cover as much as the gap as we could.

And just announced today...I have worked there 17 years...they are shutting down starting this weekend and going thru next week. The whole factory. First time in its history. All employees will be paid for the week. We are hearing this is actually coming from pressure from the governor, otherwise as shown by the flu thing last week, they would have kept chugging even if most of the people were absent.

I don't like being told where to go, when I can go, and how many I can go with. But that's exactly what the govt and law enforcement are telling people to do. You beach hunters might have an off year this year, especially if this thing rocks on through spring and summer.

Trump calls this a war, and references WWII.

There is a stark difference between the era of WWII and today.

During WWII, there were NO bailouts. For company's or people. The country MADE THINGS. Taxes also went UP.

Today...bailouts galor...for companies and people. The US does not make much any more. Just consumption and debt. Corporations got HUGE tax breaks and instead of investing that money back into the workers and research and development, they bought back stock...at all time highs. Trump shouted at the roof tops it's the greatest economy ever. It's not. When Trump was campaigning he stated the stock market was a huge bubble. When he got elected, he changed his tune. Why ?

The US bond and stock market has been in a huge bubble. Bubbles get busted. The virus busted it. If it wasn't the virus, it would have been something else. It was only a matter of time. Trillions of fake money pumped into the market to keep it inflated. Now people are wondering why it crashed so hard. Don't blame it on the virus...blame it on The Fed. Now tens of trillions will be used to try to re-inflate the fake market....do you think that will make it better ?

The bull market in stocks was nearing it's end. The continued blowing up the bubble with fake money from 2008 until now, only made this crash worse.

Lowering interest rates to zero does not help. It only helps those who can access billions. It does not help the average person. So mortgage rates are lower...big deal. Half the country does not have enough savings to buy a new water heater, you think they have enough for a down payment on a house ? Plus the housing prices are so inflated and they too will crash. Savings rates in the bank are toast. Pretty soon they will go to real negative rates and charge you to hold your money in the bank.

Now they want to give people under a certain income free money. What does free money do ? All it does is cause inflation. If you think toilet paper is expensive now, watch out !

We have jumped the shark big time. Do you think when this is all over (it shall pass), that our government will make the necessary and fundamental changes needed to help the average US worker ? Hold the big companies feet to the fire and bring back manufacturing and good wages ? Probably not. Not unless EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN CONGRESS IS VOTED OUT. Trump is not the problem...CONGRESS IS.

Like I always say, Congress is supposed to be made up of people that represent the entire country. The country probably has 10-15% of its workforce as lawyers. Why is Congress made up of 60-70% lawyers ? Most all of them millionaires.

+1

therover61 is telling it like it is!

tabman

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not liking it at all. Store shelves empty. Go
> vt officials mandatory closing businesses, parks,
> even beaches. I saw where the Florida governor shu
> t down the beaches for spring breakers, and said t
> he beaches would have to comply with current CDC i
> nstructions of no groups, and that police would be
> patrolling and enforcing via ATVs. The place I wo
> rk operates 24/7, 365 days a year. It is over tim
> e, all the time. The last few weeks, the Flu type
> A and some stomach virus was running rampant throu
> gh the factory. And they didn't bat an eye to kee
> p running or even consider shutting down. The depa
> rtment I work in, with 3 shifts, has 21 people..or
> 7 per shift. Last week, only 3 reported to work fo
> r all shifts. I was one of the 3...and we still ha
> d to run a skeleton crew, and work over to cover a
> s much as the gap as we could.
>
> And just announced today...I have worked there 17
> years...they are shutting down starting this weeke
> nd and going thru next week. The whole factory. Fi
> rst time in its history. All employees will be pai
> d for the week. We are hearing this is actually co
> ming from pressure from the governor, otherwise as
> shown by the flu thing last week, they would have
> kept chugging even if most of the people were abse
> nt.
>
> I don't like being told where to go, when I can go
> , and how many I can go with. But that's exactly w
> hat the govt and law enforcement are telling peopl
> e to do. You beach hunters might have an off year
> this year, especially if this thing rocks on throu
> gh spring and summer.

Sure I get that, but put differently, I don't like you going out in public potentially infecting more people. See it goes both ways.

People are butt hurt that their "personal" freedoms are being infringed upon, but by not doing the right thing, and being stubborn people are potentially exacerbating this situation and making it worse. Same argument that the stupid anti-vaxxers are making when they cry about their unvaccinated children not being treated fairly because their not allowed to attend public schools. You have to do what's right for the greater good of civilization.

Months from now, if we're lucky, the extreme measures our local government are implementing now to limit the spread of COVID-19 may seem like they were an overreaction, because relatively few people died.

That's the point. That's why we're doing it.

Scratch that about what I said early about my place of work shutting down. It's already changed. They are just not working the weekend. It has nothing to do with the virus, they are going to have to kill the power in the plant to install some new things.

This quote was sent out by our county sheriff just an hour or so ago "It is important to remember that COVID19 is in the news and on our minds, but the general Flu is still our biggest risk. We should be cautious, but responsible in limiting contact with those who might be sick or who might be at risk. Hand washing alone is an easy to limit the spread of any virus."

And I agree with him 100%. I also agree with this picture: cv19 by Daniel Teague, on Flickr


The mass hysteria of panic and panic buying has created a bigger problem than the virus itself IMO. In my area, there are people with babies that need formula that they can't find because other people have bought it all up. The stores have all changed their hours now and don't open until around 7 in the morning. As soon as they restock with items like bread, meats, etc they are gone within an hour of the stores opening. For that reason they have started making the 1st hour of opening dedicated to those 65 and older so they can have first pick of essential items.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2020 09:28PM by Daniel Tn.

Daniel...if every one just bought what they needed, everything would be fine.

You are correct...the hysteria is more dangerous than the virus. Uncertainty of supply chains is causing this. I believe once people see several cycles of stores being stocked, this should subside.

I sure hope the supply chains are not hosed. I agree allow those that are older ( and some live alone) to get into the stores first to get what they need. Shoot...they don't need much.

This entire thing may be a blessing. Now is the time to DEMAND manufacturing come back. DEMAND companies pay a fair wage, that CEO's cannot buy back stock, that we as a country start feeding our own people, making our own medicine and manufacturing goods for US citizen consumption.

I watch the financial channels and all of them talk (including our President) about the market coming back. Why ? Shouldn't they talk about what will transpire for the working class once we defeat this virus and not about how the market will shoot back up even higher. How the f--k is that going to happen unless the same bullshit occurs again...ie more funny money being printed to inflate stocks.

WOW...will we EVER LEARN ?