I finally did the promised testing of a 1021 CZ-3D in my test garden...

Well, I finally had the chance to do a bit more of the testing in my garden that I talked about a couple of months ago. I wanted to share the results. I had posted way back, about my old F70 wanting to ID all targets in my garden (6" and deeper) as IRON / 13 VDI. Then I recently posted about how using my 6x8 SEF coil on my SE PRO, I noticed the same issue (and with additional testing, found that a 6" EXcelerator coil performs almost identically). The 6x8 SEF and 6" EXcelerator on the Explorer can ID a 6" dime/penny, but anything deeper, and it IDs as 31/31 (FE/CO) -- solidly iron. MEANWHILE, I was shocked that the 6x8 coil could SEE a 10" deep dime and 12" deep quarter, no problem, with no disc -- repeatable signal, clearly a target there...but solidly iron ID.

In my garden I note that the ID issue is not as pronounced with the Explorer when using the Minelab 11" DD Pro coil; this machine/coil combo seems to ID better down closer to its max depth; also, my Gold Bug Pro with 11" DD does a better job with ID than all machines except the Minelab -- it IDs a 6-8" coin surprisingly well, before it loses its ID capability (but still detects all coins -- including the deepest, a 10" dime and a 12" quarter" in my garden in all-metals mode). However, I also will note that with the 5" DD coil on the Gold Bug Pro, the machine CANNOT ID a 6" dime.

In summary, ALL machines I test seem to see very deep...in all metals mode or with zero disc, but all struggle with ID (the Explorer and 11" DD Pro coil is the best, and the Gold Bug Pro and 11" DD coil is second best, surprisingly -- even on high conductive silver coins).

Anyway, BJ and I tested his CZ-3D today. It's a 1021 (but not one that NASA-Tom has calibrated). It seemed to be not too bad though, air-test wise; at 5 sens., it would air test a dime to 10 1/2", with the 8" coil. It would air test it to 12 1/2" with the 10" coil. All high tones.

In the ground -- we started with the 5" coil. The 6" dime was a LOW TONE. NO high tone at all. Meanwhile, I was very surprised that the CZ, no disc., would see the 10" silver dime and 10" silver quarter WITH THE 5" COIL. But, again, all tones were low tones.

With the 8" coil, it would do just a bit better -- you could coax a high tone on occasion from the 6" dime, and maybe a high-tone chirp from the 8" dime and 8" quarter -- but the vast majority were low tones.

This just seems SO unusual to me. If ID was going to be that severely restricted in my soil, I'd have thought depth would be restricted also. But, NOT SO. I just find this strange. Today we ran an ID Edge, Gold Bug Pro, Explorer SE Pro, CZ-3D, and an Omega 8000. ALL of these machines, with no disc, could hit even the 10" silver dimes and quarters -- and some even the 12" clad quarter. But ALL of them, with ANY coil (except the Minelab with 11" Pro coil -- which IDs the deepest, and secondly the Gold Bug Pro/11" DD), would lose their ability to ID a coin in the 6" range, give or take an inch or so.

I was not totally surprised by the fairly poor ID ability of the CZ in my garden, based on prior tests with other equipment -- since most machines, and especially with concentrics, just can't do it, in my soil. But, had I not done prior testing with other machines, I would have been stunned by hearing low tones on a 6" silver dime with that unit. Bottom line is, it seems the only way I can get decent ID up to 8" or possibly 10", is to use a large DD coil (particularly on the Explorer). Otherwise, a small DD coil, a small SEF coil, or a concentric of any size, on any machine, and it's NO JOY in terms of ID ability -- when the coin is within one inch or so either side of 6" deep.

Just wanted to share these results. My soil seems strange to me -- doesn't seem to cause depth-of-detection issues if you run no disc, but if you want to ID a coin (and run some disc. on your machine), you are VERY limited in terms of "effective" depth. The only other thing I'll say is, in some other sites I hunt close by, I can get a bit better/deeper ID on coins that have been in the ground a long time. But this is the resultant from my test garden.

Steve

I would add,,,,the CZ 3d with the 8" coil did get the depth right in PP mode, except for the coins ove 8" deep, then the meter was pegged.
The gb was around 7,, but at 1,5, or 10, it did not seem to make any difference...

Also with my Omega 8000 with the 11"dd coil, the ground reading was 51 to 53.. The Omega did its best with disc a 1, sens at 99 and one tone....

My I D Edge and 8" coil, not a sound until the Sens was maxed at 10 and the Edge set in CP and disc set to where nothing was disc'ed out, -36 to +36 accepted and then only low tones and minus numbers showed up...

Bj

Steve with all the units and different coils how the heck do you decide what you are going to use on any particuliar day?....just joshing of course as must have used at least 100 units over the last 20 years but usually try to keep a good deep unit for silver and a fast good ID units for local parks lest I end up with a Excedrin headache but actually if I could afford it would have a cellar full myself..Part of the hobby I guess and thanks for the info and willingness to share as hobby sure is a learning process...and wish you luck in your ventures.
In addendum sure was a good ride and learning process and if I had to do it again probably would go the same route as met a lot of nice people along the way and the goodies in the pouch, exercise and smelling the roses...
((priceless))

Dan,,,,lol,,,I can answer that question.
Steve has the Explorer SE pro with stock coil and the 6 x 8 SEF coil and a Fisher G B pro with stock coil and 5" coil.......
I have a Explorer SE Pro with about 7 extra coils.
CZ 3d with the 5",,8",,and 10.5" coil.
I D Edge with 8" coil only.
The Omega 8000 with the stock 10" coil and the 5" & 11" dd coils....

We were trying different units in his test garden...

This was strange to me, why all the coins gave a low tone and ID'ed as iron on the CZ 3d and the other units...
I think there is a car under Steve's test garden,lol...

Even Tiger has more than one,,,,club,,,lol...
Bj

I'm suprised the 3D 1021 didn't due any better than that. Maybe time to send it to Tom?

Ahhhhhhhhh...........
The EDUCATIONAL accolades (and criticality) of having a test-garden!!!

Your results are VERY 'normal'...... and expected. Yes......... a 6" dime is a fairly deep target to a small coil............... and is affected by the dirt to a greater extent...... on that 'weak' signal from a (deep) 6" dime.....with a small coil.
And .... yes. You will still have (almost) normal depth capabilities on the deepest of coins; yet, the mineralization "wins out" on affecting the proper ID of the deeper coins. When the dirt mineralization is extremely bad........ THEN you will lose overall/final depth on all targets......... not even acquiring a 'iron' ID at depth.
I am SOOooooo glad you did this test. ((( I'd rather you be hurt with 'honesty/truth'; rather than misled with a lie..................or.............. in this case.............. misled with unknowing/incorrect misconceptions of the real resultant ))). EDUCATION IS CRITICAL!

This confirms a suspicion I have been forming working the beaches and harbor out here. I have been learning to test dig all weak iron targets with my 21 and 3d. After I dig a scoop or two I re-scan the hole for a good ID. I would say 70% of the time it turns out to be iron. The other 30% will vary but I have recovered quite a few deep dimes and quarters this way. Some well over 10" deep in moist salty sand.

Well,, another friend, several yrs ago had a test garden with 8" silver dime, nickel,silver quarter, and at 9" a JFK half....
My CZ 3d with the 5" coil would hit every target and give the right ID and high tone...GB was around 5.

The GB at Steve's house was like 7......
And at Steve's house, with the 8" and 10.5" coils, most of the time, low tone with a iron reading, with a bounce to high coin and high tone....
And if I remember right, on the Explorer se, the coins read in the iron range....
The ground reading number on the Omega was like 51 to 53, thats not that bad of soil, is it ???

And the Edge with 8" coil in CP had to have the sens maxed at 10 and the disc set to accept everything, -36 to +36 and would only give low tones and like -26 numbers...

And if I remember right, there were 2 tree's close by, if that matters...


BJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2011 01:47AM by BJ in Okla..

And once again we rehash that it is the sound of the target and not necessarily the tone or the ID, being the reason to dig. L=W (length equals width) of the sound, meaning round when we are talking about coins. Cover the screen and LISTEN to the target. Circle the wagons, meaning checking the target from 360 degrees. If you do that, you learn more about what to expect when you dig. Detectors can only give a programmed guess of what the ID is of a target. Your ears give an educated guess as to what the target is, based on time in the field.
Test garden are great constants for testing different coils against each other or different detectors against each other. They can help you learn to listen to targets in the soil of your test garden. Take the same detectors and coils to another test garden and you will probably get much different results. Maybe better, maybe worst. The test garden is just a constant for comparing equipment. It gives you a benchmark of what you might expect if you detect in the same exact soil conditions which we seldom do. My CZ6, CZ6a, CZ5, CZ7a and CZ70 Pro found so many coins at 6 + inches but very few ID'ed properly but if I got that distinct "round" sound (L=W), I would dig them all day long. It boils down to it in not the machine, it is the operator.
Good job Steve and BJ. It is the sound, not the tone or the ID that makes great detectorist. That is what made the old Minelab Soverigns and the Fisher 1265/1266 so great. The forced you to make and educated guess based on the sound of the target.
That is my 2 cents, and with that and $1.50 of your own you can get a coffee at most cheap fast food chains. LOL

Cuniagau

PS 90 % will only dig the < 6 inch coins because that is all their detector will ID. Once you really "get it" on how to hear those deeper coins, you will love to hunt behind someone who cleans out the clad that is masking the deep coins. Those that fequent this forum are usually in the 10% range that go after the >6 inch coins that may not Id as you might like. But they know, what they know, and they are good at it. And people keep wondering how they do it. Simple, they listen and they learn and they remember and they know when to dig.

“Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction.”

Cuniagau --

Good post, I totally agree. And I think I recognize your words and style. I think I KNOW you, don't I?!

You said that those that frequent this forum are by and large in the 10% group that knows how to dig a 6+ inch coin that is not IDing well...and I fully agree. I'm in the process of trying to enter that 10% -- as you know. It has been my goal to learn to do just what you said -- go into a "hunted out" park, and "hunt behind" the people who "cleaned out" all the coins. For the most part, in heavily hunted parks, they HAVE -- in the 0-6" range, as you say. I'm ready to move into that next group, and find all the coins in the sub-6" strata of dirt that have been left behind...and I'm just beginning to be able to do so. Along with help and advice I'm receiving from much-more-experienced hunters (like yourself), these types of tests in my test garden are helping to put me "over the top."

Steve

In my test garden the soil is med/high mineralized and the cz3d shines a little brighter than my standard f-75 or the ML-SE. It will hit stronger and deeper with the same size coils, all wide open. I know, that's a broad statement and others will have different results as I was suprised also with the older tech machine.

As Tom stated a few weeks ago, not quoting; When you manually GB, and you barley have to move/turn the knob to get a ballanced sound, the soil is highly mineralized and visa - versa. Correct me Tom if you were only talking about the cz3d.

I noticed on the 3d, (0 disc, 10.5" coil) in the field many times I'll get high tones (with that nice short ting sound), I PP to get the coils center over the target, then circle 360 degrees and if at one point I get low tones, it's always a small deep nail ( 8" +).
I've dug so many to prove to myself it's just iron and now walk away from most of them. If it's a deep coin (with that procedure) the cd will high tone all 360 degrees, when that happens, I smile to myself. Now, quite often it's not a coin but a small non ferrous object.

No wonder I love this forum more than all the other detector sites. Unbiased reviews that give me real world detector strengths and weaknesses. It amazing how most top line detectors give similar results. It turns out its the operator and not the machine that makes the most difference. Thanks for the reviews guys! I truly appreciate them.

Yes.......... the Ground Balance number is not what is important. What IS important: ....... if you bump the ground balance knob just a tad (or a few numbers... too high or too low... on the VDI equipped units)......... "what happens?". IF....... there is no appreciable 'change' in actual 'reaction' to the ground with a (slightly less than perfect) ground balance..... the dirt is not too bad. IF the slight change in Ground Balance setting subsequently causes the unit to be noticably 'reactive' to the ground..... the mineralization is very bad.

This holds true for ALL detectors/brands.

(You will nearly never know 'how mineralized' the dirt is...... with the FBS units).

You may not know about mineralization with the FBS.... but it dont take long in a field to find out there are is a lot of dissolved iron. Pawnbroker Bob..... Ive noticed in PP using the Xcal where i have to remove a scoop to get a good reverse disc on a really deep target that if it is a coin..... its a quarter.

Dew

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes.......... the Gro,,,,,,,,,,,,ctors/brands.
>
> (You will nearly never know 'how mineralized' the
> dirt is...... with the FBS units).
can you explain what your stating here Tom,,,thanks

Mike,

Due to the 'different approach' electronic architect of the FBS units....... they compensate for bad dirt in a different fashion (as compared to all other units/brands). The FBS units do not ground balance.... and do not need to ground balance...... due to 'how' the multiple frequencies are analyzed.... and complex wave-form analyzation process. In addition, there is no user-interface that notifies the operator of soil mineralization status. On most other brands of detectors........ you can tell how severe the mineralization is.... by how 'tight' .... how 'narrow' the ground balance window is .... with the manual Grnd Bal function. Not so with the FBS platform.

I know with some machines ive used you can get an indication as to the GB just by the sound of the threshold as you raise and lower the coil off the ground. I dont get that with the SE. My next question would be .... does it matter where you turn the FBS on? By this i mean if the soil doesnt matter does it matter if the coil is flat on the ground, swinging distance, or knee high?

Dew

Yes...... it does matter. Even though you are unaware of ground conditions (due to FBS)....... the unit can still suffer performance-loss due to shunting of EM (electromagnetic) energy via magnetic/mineralization. Sweeping a penny 10" away from the coil in the air............. vs............ 10" deep in bad mineralization ,,,,,,,,,, will not produce the same results....... even with FBS.

FBS compensating for 'air' ................... vs .................... FBS compensating for bad dirt. YOU..... the user (human interface) may never be able to tell/hear any difference with FBS unit; yet/but........... the detector is (quietly) compensating for the dirt...... so as to 'better see' the delta (change) of a actual metallic target (vs mineralization background............. or .... if the dirt is severe..... mineralization foreground).

thank you sir !!