Frustrated with Fisher

I called Fisher today and was not happy with what I was told. I tried to explain to F*lix (the initial person I talked to on the phone) at Fisher what was happening with my FTP CZ3D. This is a 2010 model detector that I just purchased the middle of last year . They had just recently worked on this detector and something very much had killed its performance . F*lix then connected me with the technician who had worked on it earlier when I sent it to Fisher. The technician (D*niel) said that factory specification was 8-9” on a penny or clad dime. He said if I sent it back and that if it met their depth specification of (8-9”) they would not do anything to the detector. I tried to explain the fact that it hit on a dime @12” before it quit working, but they didn’t care. Getting 8-9” from a CZ in my book is subpar. I would know that giving up approximately 4 inches of possible depth would allow me to miss many targets in the ground. One interesting fact that I just learned is that a $200 Garrett ACE-250 will detect a penny at 10"........... but a $800 CZ is only good for 8" - 9"?
That was the response to my call and was not at all what I expected. I hate to say this but this could very much sour me with this company. I purchased my 1st new Fisher CZ-7a around late 1990’s. I purchased a verified F75 LTD from Tom late this fall. Is this the service or quality you and I can expect in the future?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 01:54PM by tracyjm.

What was the reason/problem you sent it in the first time?

I was out detecting when it all of a sudden lost its volume and became extremely unstable. I took it home and checked with another coil and it wouldn't sound on a coin at all. It was only the 2nd time I had used it before it quit working. I had been impressed with its performance up to that point. In fact, I had just found a very deeply buried coin before it gave up. When I sent it to Fisher they replaced 3 resistors in the board and replaced something in the oscillator. It definitely had issues...

First and foremost Garrett produces nice units with excellent service after the sale but they are not depth demons and doubt if even their top of the line units will get you a penny at 10 inches perhaps with the exception of the GTI 2500 in all metal mode that ID's and lets not forget their prices are easier on the wallet than some of the depth demons that have emerged.
Have to agree to me a CZ that only gave 8-9 inches would be subpar in my mind and have used both the new and older CZ3D and ser. numbers mean nothing to me as both performed about the same.
Metal detectors are electronic units and perhaps you were unlucky and got a bad one and as far as depth estimates the numbers they give you are in lab conditions not in the field where it counts.
I have dealth with both the old and new Fisher over the years with excellent results and if one of my older CZ's went down would certainly send it to Fisher for repair as electronic units do go down.
Have to admit when Fisher merged the service seemed to go down but recently have heard of the two gentleman in question providing excellent info and service so personally would send it back in as its still under warranty and see how it performs in the field and of course our moderator offers service for validation if not up to par.
Hard to compare cars and detectors but in the early seventies bought a new car and a co-worker bought the same model in a different color. Worst car I ever owned and his was the best he ever owned and it served him well for many years so one guesses all cars even the same model are not created equal and the same goes for detectors so my advice would be to send it back in for warranty service and consider myself lucky as using many model CZ's over the years have had little or no problems.

I have both this newer CZ3D and the Los Banos 1121 series. Both have been validated by our moderator. The newer one was validated@12" before it quit the first time. Then only validated@8.2" the 2nd time after it was worked on by Fisher. The Los Banos validated at slightly over 12" and I would consider it a very good detector. The 2010 model detector is not under warranty because I am the 2nd owner thinking how could the newer model have much wrong with it. Live and learn. I was told flat out nothing would be done to the detector if within the factory 8-9" spec range. Where does that leave me with sending it back. I never personally thought of Garrett detectors as being depth demons but I have a feeling our moderator would know more about the ACE-250 than you or I. I do however think Garrett is probably a well built detector and has its attributes. I do truely appreciate your reply to the thread and also think others should know Fishers reply to my situation. Here's to the luck of the draw I guess...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 04:03PM by tracyjm.

It should probrably be a wide broadcast message that you do not send your CZ series detectors to FTP for repair or calibration. This isn't new news and has been widely discussed here in the past as well as over at Findmall. More folks should probably be made aware of it. While some folks will try to defend it, it is undefendable.

Tracy, contact Tom and see if he can do something to it to restore it, or contact Keith Wills and see if he could do something to restore it to proper performance.

I'd also like to see this issue posted at Findmall's CZ forum. Squeaky wheel and all that.

Good luck,
Mike

Well I was going to recommend you send it to Tom D, but if i'm reading your 2nd post correctly, you already sent the repaired unit in to Tom D for recalibration. He got some extra depth out of mine, plus improved accurracy of the target ID. I doubt anyone getting is 10" inches out of an ACE 250 on a regular basis and if they did it was a freak occurance, I owned one for 2 years and never dug deeper than 6-7" unless it was a coke can or garbage can lid. Sorry for your problem, my F5 is back at Fisher, they didn't get the problem resolved the first time, we'll see how they do in the second round. I will say Felix and Daniel were concerned about the issue and I was sent a prepaid address label for the return.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 06:54PM by Beach.

I've had only good experiences with Fisher Repair but one thing I don't understand and probably should have asked is ::: When a detector is sent in for a specific repair, why would they go in to the electronics and change or up date something without asking permission from the detector owner?

Example- I sent in my f-75 (still under warranty) because the PP switch was broken. It came back with a replaced switch, new faceplate, new battery terminals, sealed coil compartment, I was very pleased, it looked brand new.

When I did a factory re-set I noticed the default discrim setting was 15 verses the old setting of 10. I called Fisher, and Felix put me on with Daniel. He said that they updated the program and that's how you can tell it's the latest, if the default disc is set at 15.....ok, hope the change is an improvement that sits right with me, I thought. I thanked him for the wonderful job on the unit.
I can tell somethings different, but can't put my finger on it...it works great like always, out of curosity, the above question still stands.

I did post it on Findmall on the CZ forum. When verified, nothing could be done to restore or improve the performance. I don't doubt others have had good experience with Fishers service department but I definitely have not.

Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It should probrably be a wide broadcast message
> that you do not send your CZ series detectors to
> FTP for repair or calibration. This isn't new
> news and has been widely discussed here in the
> past as well as over at Findmall. More folks
> should probably be made aware of it. While some
> folks will try to defend it, it is undefendable.
>
>
> Tracy, contact Tom and see if he can do something
> to it to restore it, or contact Keith Wills and
> see if he could do something to restore it to
> proper performance.
>
> I'd also like to see this issue posted at
> Findmall's CZ forum. Squeaky wheel and all that.
>
> Good luck,
> Mike

Tracyjm,

can you email me your contact info and RA # on the CZ you have?

Mike
ms@frsttx.com

Send it back with a note stated what you would like done, and include a little card for Dunkin Donuts. Always works.

dunkin donuts?
my god! why does anybody go there?
(lol!)

(h.h.!)
j.t.

tracyjm.......... give mike scott a chance to make things right!!!! i have had nothing but excellent experiences when dealing with fisher!!!!

mike scott........ really glad to see you posting here!!!!
what type of quality control measures does fisher have in place?
what is the standard for cz units air test and target id accuracy? will the standard be changed?

wish you guys were located in Florida! i have 23 years experience and i would love to work for fisher calibrating and inspecting units. how bout an "east coast operations center" (my apartment)? ....... just kidding! excited to see the end results of tracyjm's problem.
chuck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2012 05:04AM by seeker41.

First Texas Products has treated me very well. Even when my opinion differed from theirs. I agree with Seeker....give Mike S. the opportunity to help you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2012 05:56PM by TerraDigger.

I agree ,Mike Scott will do all he can. He helped me out with one of my CZ-3D's ,And even sent me his CZ-3D to use in the meantime and said if I liked his I could keep it and he would keep mine if I wanted to! He is one of the good guys!

I think detectors are just like cars, after awhile you just got to get some off the road to make room for new one.

Flintstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think detectors are just like cars, after awhile
> you just got to get some off the road to make room
> for new one.


Unless it's a Jeep... then you just keep on keepin' on.

I look at a CZ like a Jeep... It's tough, well built and works perfectly for what it was designed to do.
(Unfortunately finding a good mechanic can sometimes be tough to do.)

I have purposely gone BACKWARDS in my quest for machines for the simple reason that the older machines were built better , and while they had less bells and whistles , they got the job done better than most of the newer machines ....... The newer machines produced by ALL the companies are mass produced and much easier to produce , and therefore the profits are much higher on them ....The older analog machines are more work to tune, and more costly to build .....What do you think these companies are going to opt for ? ...... Too bad that this trend is slowly turning the USA into a 3rd world country, and we're going to hell in a hay wagon !!!......It would be interesting to see how many of the components that are built into the new detectors are even built here in the USA ... There's no pride in most companies anymore ......It's all about profit .....Jim

Most electronic components are made overseas. The days of 100% USA component made detectors is long over, if any ever even existed.

I just want to address the idea of the magic 12” depth of the CZ detectors. First I want to say that I realize the present CZ3D is no longer the “Flagship” detector for Fisher. I know that it’s not the future of Fisher in terms of profit or the latest technology. I myself would be more than willing to pay the extra cost to truly know what I was purchasing. Maybe a CZ3D LTD could be built that was certified to a specific performance? I’ve been swinging a coil over the ground for close to 40 years and have an idea of what works. I by no means am going to pretend to know as much as many of you do on this or other forums. I’m not green to the fact you need depth and separation of targets to have a successful outing. It’s sad that the CZ series (at this point) has been put in 2nd place and may not have much future left. We can hope that there is truly a new CZ series around the corner that will trump the old series in its full glory and not a shadow of what it had been in the past.
I have been guilty in the past of brand loyalty with the metal detectors that I have purchased. I stayed with companies who have had and still have the best customer service in the business. Yes, I know I was narrow minded in not branching out in use of other brands soon enough. I just started using multiple brands of detectors about 10 years ago. I have found that several companies have great units out there. No sense in naming them all. The point is that I want a dependable unit that performs the way it should. I also want a customer service that I feel respects me as a customer. I don’t expect them to know who I am but know without me and others their company doesn’t exist.
Let’s go back to the idea of the 12” depth mark. I know it’s a stretch to think that a detector should go to 12” on an air test or in inert ground. I don’t really expect that but want to reach that. You would be hard pressed to ever achieve that in real world mineralized ground with all the trash and iron in the ground. The air test and inert ground test is a bench mark and nothing else. It’s a starting point to know somewhat where you’re at in terms of possible performance under ideal controlled conditions.
There are many older model detectors out there that were great in their time. In my experience, there was a time when the older tuner detectors met modern electronics. It seemed for a time there was not much progress as far as depth and real world performance. I think we are lucky to have made enough progress in the last few years to rekindle the interest in metal detecting. We can now go in to places that have been hunted to death and rediscover what we have missed in the past. I have to say the CZ3D was one that rekindled my interest in detecting. It’s not the newest model out there but it is still a step above some others I have tried that were supposed to be the best.
I know I stirred the pot when I brought up my recent experience at having a detector that once hit that magic 12” mark and fell back to 8” after having been worked on at Fisher. It’s not that it’s now at 8” depth as much as the fact it lost 1/3 of its depth performance from being worked on. It just so happened I had verified performance before and after it was worked on. What caused it to lose the performance? I know electronics vary from unit to unit. My background is in engineering and I have over 20 years experience working in a quality control laboratory. I run calibrations on equipment every day and am expected to meet certain standards for legal reasons to the fact that our product meets specifications. I am not new to this and expect the same in return from other companies.
I want to thank Tom and the members of this and other forums for reading this long winded thread and allowing me to have a voice…

Very well stated, tracyjm. I agree with you. I think you are right to be frustrated that you had a unit with "x" depth performance, sent it in for repair, and received it back with only 2/3x of its depth performance. I would think that whatever was "done" could be "un-done" -- whatever part(s) was(were) replaced could be replaced yet again to regain that performance, but who knows -- I am certainly no electronics expert. I am hoping that Fisher and you reach a state of mutual satisfaction.

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2012 06:32PM by steveg.

Well said indeed. I agree about machines of the past. Seems like more "hands on work" went into them. I don't think they will ever get the depth the machines of the past will get. Machines of today are remarkable in trash seperation and "un"masking but no where near the depth. I think the depth race is long over. Cheaper build quality and assembly line production by way of a chip and program over resistors and caps. They can't seem to get both together. Untill i can run some other CZs to compare mine. It's hard for me to beleave "i have a good one".

Just so people don't think i'm the pot calling the kettel black. I own and love hunting with a Minelab ETrac for the dirt. It's as close as i have come to having it all for my area. No where near the depth of my CZ-21.

*** One interesting fact that I just learned is that a $200 Garrett ACE-250 will detect a penny at 10" ***

Just air tested a new Garrett Ace 250 to see if it get obtain 10" on a clad penny. Nope!

Penny 7.0 - 8.5"
Dime 7.5 - 8.5"
Nickel 8.5 - 9.0"
Quarter 8.5 - 9.0"

If you consider a factory model's responses as a distribution curve (bell curve distribution) then you will always find that the mean (average) must cluster around a certain value (captured by the variability of one standard deviation either side of the peak which includes about 68% of the total of all unit manufactured. Two deviations from the norm contains about 95% of the group, and beyond this point only 4% of the group exist/remain).

The response on a target penny will cluster around the standard - perhaps 8" on a penny for the Ace 250. Two standard deviations would permit, within design tolerances, a penny to be obtained at 6" or 10" (+/-1 SD), and beyond two standard deviations may include those detectors that get either 4" or 12" on a penny (+/- 2 SD). The outliers beyond the second standard deviation will include the tiny minority (4%) who can get a penny at 12". The Quality Assurance dept should catch and remove the detectors that are near the bottom of the second standard deviation as they are clearly a fail (4 - 6" is too poor a performance to release to the public and so they are removed)

As with anything that has variability in manufacture, which includes everything built by man, the outliers can be either sub-par or super-par. Hopefully the sub-par won't make it to the customer - but even in this there is statistically a small number that will.

It is statistically very less likely that an unbiased randomly selected Ace 250 from the factory would hit 12" on a penny, but it is possible, simply based on design variability. It is also possible that a detector is produced that is 'marginally' sub-par (within -1 SD). That is, though Quality Control will weed out the dismal failures on the left wing of the bell curve, there still exists a decision point to which a detector can still go to market being 'marginally' sub-par (within -1 SD) rather than being recycled for repair. There has to be a cut-off and there has to be detectors that are sub-norm and they have to be released to the public. In not, there would be near identical detectors made but almost no production count and the company would soon fold.

So, 65% of those who purchase a detector get something near the mean of performance, some slightly worse, some slightly better. A smaller number (14%) will get a super-par detector that exceeds the norm, and 2% are the super fortunate that receive a new detector that GREATLY exceeds the norm (the 12+" group). Assuming the QA dept takes out the sub-par and super sub-par detectors then only < 1% of buyers will get a piece of junk for a detector and be forced to return it. A lousy QA dept will have worse attention to detail and a higher amount of marginally sub-par detectors get by (perhaps 5 - 10%), for example: a factory in China operated by politburo members and chain-smoking teenagers.

Sadly, if you are among the fortunate to receive a rare (> +2 SD) detector that exceeds the mean (12" penny), and you find a mechanical issue that forces you to return it - you are in big trouble!

The reason for the trouble is not that the tech dept can't fix it - they can. The problem is they are going to 'standardize' your detector to the NORM. Your detector is now operating within normal design tolerances after they recalibrate it after repair, but it now only obtains the same penny at about 8" (4" less). There is no way for the manufacture to return the detector back to SUPER-par performance - that was a design anomaly to begin with, a rare convergence of random interactions of electronic components that cannot be reproduced.

Therefore, if you have a winner in the random draw of detector quality don't let the tech department 'fix' it.

john

I guess a few are still hung up on a simple comparison of value for the money (the ACE 250). You did prove that it’s pretty impressive for the money. All of what you wrote makes perfect sense but does not answer why the “NORM” is a lower number than it used to be. Is it the component sourcing to save money or the lowering of the bar so as to not compete with the top of the line model. I guess they must have had more “anomalies” at the previous build location.

Why would a Mfr want to lose free 'word-of-mouth' advertising (with a well-performing detector) that would further enhance/push sales...... by taking a 12" unit...... and deliberately reduce it to 8".

((( And the 'lost' 4" of performance...... is the 'deep' stuff.......... that no one wants to miss!! )))

I don't know about the rest of you,But I myself would gladly pay the extra amount of money for a certified 12'' machine. That is with in reason like say an extra 100.00?

" Why would a Mfr want to lose free 'word-of-mouth' advertising (with a well-performing detector) that would further enhance/push sales...... by taking a 12" unit...... and deliberately reduce it to 8". "


Tom,

These companies don't want to spend the time that it takes to adjust these super detectors to GREAT specs ..... If they did , everybody would expect THEIR detector to do the same thing !!....... ..They have an easy standard for adjusting these detectors that takes no time at all , and the hype on the forums continues to pave the way for more detector sales ...... How many guys do yu see selling a CZ3D saying in their ad " This detector is not anything like a 1021 .....This detector will only see a dime at 8 inches , not the 12 inches like the good ones " ... ? ........Just about every CZ3D that folks are selling hit's the 12 inch mark whether they do or not !!....... It's all hype ...... When getting together like we did last weekend , and doing real world tests wtih real sand and saltwater , you get to see what the story REALLY is ......Jim

BTW ....I'm not saying that there are not any super duper detectors out there , but they are far and few between ...... There is a lack of quality control in this industry to hold to tight tolerances ..... Stamp em out and send em ont their way !!.....Some foks are just lucky enough to get a good one ......JIm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2012 12:43AM by synthnut.

I became accustomed to FRL's 'norm' of 11.8" to 12.1" clad dime air-test standards on the CZ's........... and not just a 'few' of them. It is hard to digress to sub-mediocrity performance.

My 2 cents
We live in a disposable society. Companies do not spend a lot of time trying to repair electronic equipment. It's not cost effective.
I recently bought a new detector. Shortly after getting it,it malfunctioned for a short time and then started working again. Then one day while in use the screen was on but know audio.
I called the mgfr and explained what happened. There pat answer, it's sounds like a coil problem. send in the coil and we'll replace it. I said I would like to send in the whole detector because I think
it's more than the coil. No problem. I get a call a few days later and they say it was a coil problem and your detectors on it's way back. Great.!!!
I get my detector back accompanied with a letter explaining that after testing they found the coil to be defective. What I found interesting was the control unit was brand new. The only part I got back from
my old unit was the lower rod.
My thinking is that they do not attempt to repair units, they just give you a new one.
The person who sent in the CZ that got 12" on a dime and got back a sub par unit, got back the shell of there old detector. They just took the guts off the shelf for a new detector and swapped them with the old guts.You get your detector back in 3-4 days and you think great service. BUT IS IT???
I don't think this is unique to any one mgfr, I just think that's the way a lot of businesses are run today. Some day I hope that business model changes.

The next time someone has a Cz-3D or a CZ21 that needs repair, very carefully open it up, and put a mark on the boards with a marker that nobody will notice. When you get it back, if its something other than a coil problem, check and see if my theory holds true.

If it's true what turtleman is saying, ( I could see it happening ) that would be like buying a car from a dealer, take it in for some kinda repair and they exchange your expensive rims for some look alike wheels with caps on them. Or exchange your factory pioneer stereo for some Philco model with a Pioneer face plate.
I always liked fisher detectors but they should raise the standard on these units. I mean, look at Garretts Ace 250 and some of Tesoro's models, a far lower price tag and at least by $500. I don't blame the guy for being upset. Totally understanding.