Tom, the resurfacing of FTP lack of concern for proper CZ performance brings up another question:

Since only a few people (two) that I know about can and will actually correctly tune a CZ unit, what happens when you two folks quit, or are no longer available to tune them?

These detectors will be around for a long time. Is this knowledge being saved and transmitted to other folks with the capabilities to repair these units?

HH
Mike

Good observation Mike.
I find it hard to believe Fisher Repair/Engineers lack the knowledge on how to tune the cz to it's max operating capabilities.
Maybe the knowledge got lost in the shuffle, or, the time it takes to properly tune it as time is money comes into play.
Sometimes a little meat gets cut off with the fat.

Well, i guess we like to own a detector that operates in the very upper part of the variables. Fisher may be correct in that 8-9 inch is absolutely OK but you guys are talking about the upper part of what the detector can do when all variables suit 110 %

Anyone that can tune a CZ will have some work to do and they will be here when CZs are outdated so it shouldnt be much problem.

There is minute differences in both machines and coils, I know people buying several coils to find a bettar one and even machines. Mostly analogs.

The future will bring better standards and better detectors.

I guess to tune a CZ correct i would send it to a tuner like Tom..... not Fisher.

My guess would be that in the expense/profit equation lays the answer, not lost skills. Many of the FRL people are still there at First Texas. I am sure someone (DJ, Felix or Daniel that I know of) COULD do it or teach someone if it was cost effective. In the computer world Microsoft and Apple have insane cash reserves and made many millionaires of their employees and officers- huge margins. Yet they cannot afford to support products forever. They know it costs customer loyalty, but have determined the effect of corporate health requires limiting how long of a time they continue to provide support on even their top products. It is a responsible policy for First Texas to put staying healthy ahead of making us happy. And in keeping with my analogy, I believe if First Texas was run like Apple, the guys working on tuning and MODs would be sued to prevent unauthorized product infringement.
Anyway, I am glad we have who we have making Fisher and other MDs better!
PastTom

Postscript: Sorry, I hadn't seen Tracyjm's post when I wrote this. I still stand behind what I wrote, but since this was started IRT a current production model it is a little out of sync. I think FTP is under pressure we don't realize to move repair units out. It will always be a matter of making hard decisions about how much time one can invest and what is good enough. I've done computer repair with the public myself. There are elements that don't occur from the customer side. t

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 06:28PM by Pasttom.

Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since only a few people (two) that I know about
> can and will actually correctly tune a CZ unit,
> what happens when you two folks quit, or are no
> longer available to tune them?
>
> These detectors will be around for a long time.
> Is this knowledge being saved and transmitted to
> other folks with the capabilities to repair these
> units?
>
> HH
> Mike
Hi Mike,

David Johnson invented the CZ platform and in my opinion knows better than anyone how it should be tuned.
Daniel Snell has worked on all varieties of CZs including proto and production CZ3Ds and tuned more of them than anyone on the planet.
Sal Martinez is second to Daniel.
Awhile back David Johnson addressed the test and tune procedure of the CZs and confirmed they are being calibrated the right way.
We are looking at it again right now.

Mike

Thanks for jumping in, Mike Scott.

This can be fustrating for the owners. The CZ series have always been top dog competitors and when they are sent in for repair they are expected to come back as top dog competitors.

CZ units should still be tuned to compete with Minelab Explorers/Sovereigns regardless of their place in the current Fisher lineup. Even if they get totally discontinued. As long as Fisher can repair them, they should still reflect the long term CZ legacy of performance excellence.

If that legacy is not going to be continued by Fisher, then it needs to be passed to someone else. Therefore my reference to Tom and Keith (the two I know of who tune to specs)

HH
Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 06:29PM by Mike Hillis.

Interesting thread even though I don't own a CZ.

It would be nice to have detailed instructions, or better yet a you tube video(s), showing how to tune the CZ.

At the very least Tom and Keith should never fly together. ;-)

From what I understand some Fisher tech's moved with the consolidation so imagine they should have the abilities to
properly tune...indeed time limitations, profit margins and yes even parts from different manufacturers may come into play.

Again I have owned and used a CZ3D from the old school and one from the new school and found them to be basically the same but perhaps I was just lucky and would like to see these units tested in the field or a longtime planted test garden rather than air tests as its in the field where it counts..

Amazes me never hear my Explorer is deeper than yours etc. etc. but then again these companies are still intact and haven't merged.

Wow! I disappear off of the forum for a couple of days...... and look what happens! ((( Actually...... it is good/professional to see 'self-policing' in effect ))).

I have a lot to say...... and in honor of all........ I desire to keep it 'public'.............. so as to be pubically incarcerated into 'maximum honesty' and recollection. With the amount of 'eyes' on this forum........... if I should 'stray'............ it will be caught.... and corrected. (((Plus I'm limited on time to answer multiple PM's/e-mails in regard to this matter))).

First: With tremendous gratitude......... many thanks to FTP for jumping in..... seeking resolution acquisition. (This is you... Mike Scott. Thanks).

Secondly: I confirm that FTP CZ-3D Ser # 06101486 ..... belonging to tracyjm.......... would acquire/detect a clad dime to 12.0" on the bench, before FTP repair. After repair, it would only ascertain 8.2" on the same clad dime....Florida dirt & on the bench. I must (again) state for the record......... I can calibrate CZ's to nearly all (engineering design intent) specifications.......... WITH THE EXCEPTION of depth issues. Yes........ I have been able to help some units with depth enhancements. BUT..... when there lies a gross error with depth performance...... (usually) I can not help. And......... I am not a repair facility. I do not have repair parts on-hand. Yes..... I have been able to repair some units..... but not all.

Thirdly: (((And after I just answered another thread (unknowingly) with performance results of this other brand unit))). Yes, I have been able to air-test.... and Florida inert dirt... depth test a clad dime with the Garrett ACE-250. It will indeed detect a clad dime to 10". In real world scenarios... depth is slightly less..... but this holds true with all detectors.

Fourth: A couple of years ago....... I made a lengthy post about how Fisher Research Laboratory (FRL) in Los Banos, CA tuned CZ's. The woman of whom calibrated/tuned the CZ's .... name was 'Sima'. If someone does a search for 'Sima' on this forum..... this data should show. I remember putting a lot of data into that post.

Fifth: This may be a difficult topic to share/cover/talk-about........ because........... sometimes 'honesty' will bear some pain/resentment.......... yet............. in the end......... the 'correct' understanding will prevail. There is not much profit in building/selling CZ's. Specifically/directly looking at "percentage" (cost vs profit) ....It is the least profitable platform FTP has. It is also a tuning-and-alignment labor-intense nightmare. Because of these reasonings...... there is no 'passion' in building and selling CZ's. Some folks at FTP (with strict adherence....I'm protecting the names)..... just assume the CZ platform 'go away'.

Sixth: To err is human. I am in no way blaming Daniel (or any of the Tech's) at FTP for their recalibration abilities.

Seventh: It has been long-established that the CZ platform has been the 'bench' unto which all other detectors are comapred 'to'.... especially if you attend several different metal detecting clubs. And......... as years go by........... some newer-generation detectors have been able to: come close, match and/or trump the CZ platform in a few aspects....... but not all.

Eighth: There are MANY earlier-generation CZ's out there that will ascertain 12.0" on a clad dime (with standard supplied 8" coil)....... and ... no..... not just the 'hot ones'. The units that would only ascertain 11.8 or 11.9" were (at that time) considered sub-par. Now........... it certainly does seem like the irrefutable 'new' numbers ... are around 9"........... and have become the expected/accepted/irrefutable 'norm'. And herein lies EXACTLY where animosity/frustration emanates. I do believe there would be tremendous sales..... if the CZ platform could be returned to 12" spec's. But..... without the 'passion'..... I suspect no time/attention will impose. Maybe the intent is to put out a new digital multi-freq platform that can be reliably 'mass' produced..... with reliable unit-to-unit performance.

More to say......... out of time!

Hitting 12.0" on a clad dime in air with an 8" factory coil is outstanding performance - likely within 99.9% of the best obtainable. In my unvalidated database of depth tests (not done by me) I find only a few other detectors that are able to compete (but with the edge of larger coils), but most are discontinued models.

XLT Spectrum with 9.5" factory coil ...................14.2"
Compass X-200 with 11.5" factory coil ..............13.4"
GTI 2500 with 9.5" factory coil ...........................13.4"
C-Scope R1 with 10" factory coil ....................... 12.6"
White's 6000 di with 9.5" factory coil ..................12.6"
Garrett CX with 10" hothead coil .........................12.2"
Treasure Baron with 10" factory coil ....................12.2"
Fisher 1225-X with 10" factory coil .......................11.8"
White's 6000 Di Pro Plus with 8.0" factory coil......11.8"

All I want from any detector manufacturer is that they take pride in their product, that they push the science as far as is humanly possible, and that they put every effort to create the deepest, most sensitive, best discriminating, lightest, fastest, most powerful detector their engineers can produce. And keep the cost down. Am I asking too much?

They can put a man on the moon but they can't make a detector that can find a clad dime at 12" anymore?

in my view after over 33 years of coin sniping,it has been MY
experience that finding coins at 12" or so is secondary to being able to effectively
"see" through junk in trash infested areas.i believe that with the advent of (v.l.f)
detectors around '77 or so,that we have had sufficient depth.those early detectors were capable of attaining
the coveted 12" coin. just sayin'

It is true that a large amount of coins (and other good targets) are within detectable range; yet are masked. After digging dozens of large pits.......... and detecting 100's of construction (excavated) sites.......... there are large amounts of deep coins and good targets that are (were) beyond the detection range of today's best metal detectors. Both cases (masked and too deep) are true. In some cases................. some dirt conditions dictate that targets sunk out of detectable range.......... and other dirt conditions dictate a very slow sink-rate; yet many targets are masked.

tom! wouldn't this situation be perfect for
proclaiming! "you don't know what's been missed if you don't know it's even there?"
just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

True.

Giving credit where it's due. My testing with other hunters this weekend useing a 2010 CZ-21. Among the top beach machines out there it was deeper than anything there. 12,13 and 15 inches on the wet salt slope. Gold rings for all three depths. the CZ was the only machine that would hit the 15 inch target. So newer built CZ getting the great depth there known for.

Sounds like you have a good one. That's good to hear.

Not trying to hijack a thread, but why isn't the CoinStrike discussed as much as the CZs are? I have only had three CZs....had the CZ-70, a CZ3D when they first came out, and a CZ20. Now this is back before we realized the danger if running discrimination in red dirt...but even back then, I favored the CZ70 over the CZ3D. And to this day my favorite of the older Fisher machines is the CoinStrike. I dug some amazingly deep things with that machine and would love to find another one!

Keep checking the classifieds for Coinstrikes as they come up at good prices..Indeed a good unit and got some deep silver with them. Expect a learning period and would have kept mine but every rusty beer cap or for that matter any round rusty object will come up as a coin so thats why I sold mine.Unfortunately my neck of the woods is loaded with rusty beer caps and some areas are not and indeed have seen some nice coinstrikes used go at good prices.
As far as myself have several old CZ's and work fine for me and indeed some merit to a degree relative the new ones in many cases not being up to par to CZ users and I have used every model ever made and sad but true wouldn't be surprised if one day even the CZ3D will no longer be manufactured and only the new Fisher knows that.

Daniel,

Yes, the way that the Coin$trike handles bad dirt is a bit different than many detectors............. and is a attribute in bad dirt.... especially magnetic dirt. In low mineralization areas...... other units can perform better.

I need to check........ knowing I have a Coin$trike....... that I could probably sell. I would need to certify the unit....... and verify if it is a prototype or production model. (((If you are interested))).

Heck yeah I'm interested if the Price is Right lol I can think back over the many MANY detectors I've had over the past 15 yrs and can only honestly say I regret parting ways with just a few. The CoinStrike was one of the few. A bit unbalanced unless it was hip mounted but otherwise it really brought the relics out of the ground in red dirt. Seems like I recall having to run the threshold setting way down into negative numbers but it worked really well here. I also done decent with the CZ70 Pro...have even been trying to snipe an eBay or forum CZ6a but had no luck. Money is a bit tight but I ain't eating Deviled Ham or Potted Meat sandwiches yet so it ain't too bad lol

Okay..... let me send you a PM with some unique options.

Daniel,

I just finished the certification process on this Coin$trike...... and sent you another PM.