5" DD vs 4x6 Elliptical

I posted this thread on the Finds forum and think I'll continue posting my results here.

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I have a test best setup with a silver dime buried at 6", 7" and 8". I tested both the 5" DD and the 4x6 concentric yesterday using my F75 setup in JE mode, 6 disc, 4 tone, 75 sens. My soil GBs at 60 with .01/.03 Fe.

Both coils easily detect the 6" dime but the 4x6 is the only one that gives a very faint high note on the 7" and 8" dimes. But these signals were very faint and I needed to be right over the target. In real hunting I would have certainly passed over the targets. The 5" DD was absolutely silent on those targets. In addition, the 5" DD is a bit noisier than the 4x6 putting out more high pitched "tics" at the identical SENS level. I wouldn't raise the sens on the 5" any more than I had it.

With a steel bottlecap buried at 4", the 4x6 yields a much more broken audio signal when swept over the center of the coil with a repeatable iron tone when swept at the tip of the coil. The 5" DD responds like the big factory DD giving a clean sound in the center then a repeatable iron tone again when swept at the tip of the coil.

I have a rusty nail buried 1" deep and 6" apart from a silver dime buried at 4". Both coils do an excellent job separating both targets at very high swing speeds with a slight edge going to the 5" DD. The audio was just a little 'cleaner' on the dime compared to the 4x6. You begin to reach the limit of how fast your brain can process both signals. IMHO, neither coil excels over the other, but both coils are far superior compared to the factory 9x11 DD.

Using my 9x11D D, I can see easily see the 7" and 8" targets, with accurate ID, if I swing using a normal to fast swing speed. If I slow down significantly, or do the Minelab 'wiggle', the 7" and 8" targets nearly disappear.

Again, using my 9x11 DD with the nail and dime, the dime is nearly completely masked swinging in either direction unless I swing at a very slow swing speed. Then, the audio is poor at best and only serves notice to examine further (rotate!)

*******

Someone in the Find's Vision forum asked how the stock and 5" DDs compare at different DISC setting with my 'complex' nail and dime test:

Stock 9x11" DD: With Disc=6 (disc out small nails) I get a strong broken signal with no sound of the dime. With Disc=7 I get a little chirp of the nail and no sound of the dime. With Disc>=8 the dime is completely masked by the iron and I hear nothing.

New 5" DD: With Disc=6 I get a good low tone on the nail and a good high tone on the dime. With Disc between 7 and 10 I get a weak broken chirp on the nail and a good high tone on the dime. With Disc set between 11 and 20 I get no sound on the nail and a good high tone on the dime. I do not use Disc > 20 so I don't know how those results would be.

No one seems to be able to add any information on their Vision so I'll continue this Fisher thread over at the @#$%& forum.

*******

I need to repeat this test using my elliptical but I suspect it will be similar to the small DD.

I need to build one more 'complex' test bed scenario burying 4 rusty nails 1" underground equadistant around a circle with a 8" radius having a silver dime buried 4" in the center.

Got it?

That might show a bigger difference between the two coils vs having only one nail and one dime.

I would think the 5" is not going to hit deep and it is not really designed for that I will have to try one in my ground.

LowBoy

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I would think you test beds should be months old not new the F75 really changes when you put fresh targets in the ground.

LowBoy

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Very interesting

Where I live in SE TX the 4x6 coil will not hit the rusty bottle cap , but the 5"DD will hit the bottle cap as ID of 82 sometimes. The 5" is working ok and has got some good coins , but the 4x6 will work the trash better and go a little deeper. This what is happening to me.

Lawrenzo Wrote:
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> I would think you test beds should be months old
> not new the F75 really changes when you put fresh
> targets in the ground.


In my test bed I have a silver dime that has been buried at 6" for 8 years. My other silver has been buried for a few months. Longer buried targets are easier to detect compared to newer targets because the ground is consistent near the target.

I'm not convinced that silver coins present all that much of a 'halo' since there's very little corrosion on dug silver coins. Steel, iron, nickel and copper are another thing altogether. So I'm not so concerned about the age of the silver coins I have buried.

I'm more concerned that the dirt in my test bed has not yet settled (too much air) so I water a fresh test setup regulary for the first month (my wife is convinced I'm a total IDIOT!) My 2-month old 7" dime and 8" dime are much more difficult to find compared to the 6", partly due to the increased depth and partly due to the disturbed ground. But that's OK; I know what the target is, where it is and what affect my settings have on detecting it.

I use big rusty nails in my test bed too. They may not present the halo that an undug nail might present, but they're plenty tough and present a known geometry that I can further test.

Very, very good! I like your test-garden. And your resultant is congruent with expectations. This is what will cause you to have dramatically better performance & success in the real world (complex test-garden targets). You will have higher efficiency (effective use of limited time).... and pridefully return home with higher volumes & better finds. Remember; life is short. It's not a dress-rehearsal.... dry run. It's the real-McCoy. Make effective use of every moment..... realizing..... that most places we hunt,,,,,,, have been hunted before; and it is your responsibility to have the wit's/know-how/intelligence to ascertain success in these common real-world scenarios.

Yes, the small DD coil is naturally not as deep as the 4 x 6 concentric or 6 x 9 concentric; yet, it is more sensitive to smaller targets and will separate adjacent targets better. Yes, there will be times/situations/scenarios when the large stock 7 x 11 coil may be too big to detect a certain target....... and the tiny 5" DD coil is not deep enough to detect this same target..... but the 'inbetween' size coil will be the only one to ascertain success. ....Here in Florida, most targets are excessively deep......... and I may require the extreme target separation that the 5" DD affords; yet, it'll not give the required depth to acquire the dirt-depth strata that Florida presents.

And DD coils are notorious for having ID difficulty with steel targets...... especially steel bottle caps.

Yes, 'fringe' targets ...... whilst performing the Minelab coil 'wiggle' may cause these deep targets to be 'undetectable'. Be aware!

GOOD report & thread.

Tom

Thanks Tom!

I'm a bit anal with my test bed and go there often to 'recalibrate' or figure something out that I don't understand.

I can't believe all the backlash I've gotten over at the Find's Vision forum asking them to perform some simple tests in the ground. It seems that the phrase "test bed" is some type of assault on their religion!

In all seriousness, I don't know how anyone with a limited amount of detection time can learn these new detectors without passing them over some known targets

Maybe this is my engineering background showing through...

It is the hang-up.......... the fear........... of Head-to-Head comparison testing; especially by dealers & sponsors.

the vision or no vision are a closed group that have waited so long for white's to do something that it will be awhile before we find out what the new machine can do. The only test I see is a head to head F75 DD and their detector DD for relic hunting and then maybe the F75 DD against there best coil for coin hunting.

But they won't do that...will they?

LowBoy

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
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Long time form lurker here but I figured I might be able to add something here.

The club I belong to here in Illinois is made of of mostly White's detectors. It just so happens that one of them is now a premier White's dealer and is using the Vision and has already sold a couple of them to other members. I use the F75 with a stock coil and the new 5" DD coil. There are a couple of other members where one uses an F75 and the other a T2 and a comple of Minelab folks as well.

We are having our Spring Hunt starting next Friday and lasting though the weekend at an old Boy Scout Camp where a lot of relics and old coins have been found an a lot of virgin territory still to be coovered. I will try to see if I can do some comparisons while in the field and see what happens. I have been very curious about the Vision capabilities since they came out and thanks to Tom and his very useful help on getting more from the F75 I think I have a pretty fair chance here.

Merlin

It was very interesting to see how the moderator pulled my first question related to testing the Vision under difficult "complex" conditions. Quite obviously, he had a commercial interest behind stifling any DATA that might put the Vision in a poor light. Many of the folks who bought the Vision are very passionate about the Whites brand and are a bit defensive about folks, like me, coming to their site and posting comparison questions. Who wants to hear that the $1700 was possibly not 'well spent'? I really don't understand that line of thinking... but, whatever.

I'll continue to post questions over there in a professional manner to learn more about the machine. If it can do one thing better than the others, then the bar is raised just a little more.

That would be a big help hunting side by side and comparing targets

LowBoy

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

We could do it in 15 minutes in my testbed.

Uh, Oh... here I go again...

As short as life is.......... this is what is needed. Head-to-head in a professional complex test-garden would be a good start.

But that will be a cold day in hell. I figure I'll have to buy a used unit within the year and test it myself, then resell it for minimum loss.

I'll see what happens this weekend. The person in question from the other forum just so happens to be in our club and is the new White's distributor for the area replacing two other people that White's was not happy with. He was also one of their testers for the vision from the beginning so I was told.

Good luck.


I'd only like to see some DATA taken with a Vision and F75 over some known deep and complex targets. It would be great if your Vision buddy could support you.

I won't guarantee anything as most of these guys are DIE hard WHite's fans and have been for many years but I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Do you have a testbed with known deep targets? It's more fun to do it in the field but the complexity due to potential masking makes the DATA somewhat suspect.

I myself don't have one but I know a vouple of people in the club that do and will see if I can use one of theirs.

go-rebels Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I need to build one more 'complex' test bed
> scenario burying 4 rusty nails 1" underground
> equadistant around a circle with a 8" radius
> having a silver dime buried 4" in the center.
>
> Got it?
>
> That might show a bigger difference between the
> two coils vs having only one nail and one dime.

I finally built the test bed described above with a few changes. I used (4) new #4 finish nails (approx 1" long, 0.090" diameter) buried 1" deep 6" in a circle with a silver dime buried 4" in the center of the circle (6" measured from the center of each nail). All nails are oriented parallel to the surface of the ground and parallel to each other. Two of the nails are pointed exactly in line with the dime.

******-******


-*****O*****- ----> "Parallel" sweep


******-******


"Perpendicular" sweep

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V

I setup my F75 at JE, DISC=1, SEMS=45, TONE=4, GB=58 (FASTGRA. With the stock 9x11" DD coil I hear the grunts of the nails but the dime is totally masked in any sweep orientation. (My Explorer II with the stock coil nulls out over the entire area.)

With the 4x6" elliptical, I get a one way repeatable signal for "dime" in the perpendicular sweep orientation but it is completely masked in any other sweep direction.

With the 5" DD, I get a 2-way repeatable signal for "dime" in the perpendicular sweep direction but, again, it is completely masked in any other sweep direction.

When I mean "any other direction", I mean when I angle to the perpendicular sweep direction more than +/- 10 degrees.

With this setting I can see a silver dime buried at 7" with the 4x6 but not with the 5" DD. The 5" DD can see a silve dime buried at 6" however.

Test results were similar with the F75 setup to "DE", SENS=85, DISC=6.

This DATA indicates that the 5" DD does not significantly improve target separation compared to the 4x6" concentric for this particular test bed geometry.

DID YOU TRY MONO TONE AND A DISC OF 6 in DE

LowBoy

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
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I'll try that setup tomorrow night.

Sounds like results meet expectations. The 5" DD gives 2-way signal.... but to a slightly lessor depth. 4" x 6" elliptical goes deeper..... but can only give a one-way signal.

Lawrenzo Wrote:
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> DID YOU TRY MONO TONE AND A DISC OF 6 in DE


I tried DISC=6, Mode-DE, Tone=Mono and got the exact same results as above using the 5"DD or 4x6", that is, I could only see the target within a +/- 10 degree sweep window. The 5"DD produced a good 2-way audio tone and the 4x6" produced a good 1-way audio tone. Both coils gave inconsistent VDI readings but the nice sound would have had me digging.

I would much rather use these coils in DISC=0, Mode=DE, Tone=4 mode as they really sound off on silver and copper while simultaneously giving an accurate indication of the level of trash left in the ground. Although I was able to run the sensitivities up to 90-95, I liked the audio better when the sensitivity was set closer to 80. However, I lost the signal on my 6" silver dime using both coils when I dropped to SENS=80.

Testing both coils in JE mode on my 4-nail/1-dime complex test target using high sensitivities produced very poor audio and VDI signals. I don't recommend using these small coils in that mode even though I got a good signal on the 6" dime using the 4x6 (the 5"DD produced a marginal good signal, but I would have probably walked away).

I just started testing the smaller coils using all metal/motion when the skies opened up. It was very interesting to note that the VDI readings locked on the correct target ID within this nail/dime complex target using very high sensitivity settings with very little background noise. The machine actually sounded like an Explorer running in MONO audio! This mode of operation needs further study over the weekend...

I guess it wouldn't hurt to have both coils I am thinking about the new 5DD

LowBoy

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If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

I have no need for both. After I test more in All Metal/Motion mode this weekend, I will sell one. From what I've seen so far, both coils act very similar, with the 5"DD being marginally shallower and having marginally better separation only due to it's smaller geometry.