The Fisher F5 with 11 inch DD

I like silver coins as much as any detector. It was finding a pocket spill of three mercury dimes (with my ACE250) that solidified that in my heart. I have three freshly buried dimes in my test garden that i have mentioned in another post recently. The Fisher F5 easliy attains them and at 50% gain and a Thrshold of 0. But I have a question. Of course, I surely hope that Mike Hillis chimes in on this as I have been studying his posts all morning.
I have several yards including a large school yard (were the 3 mercurys came from and 1902 Barber quarter). Let us say that EMI is NOT an issue. Let us also say that at any time during my sweeping, I see one or two (XL and L) bars on the iron graph. Ground phase is at 48 or thereabouts. Now I want to find silver and old copper in these yards. I want to use optimal settings at the get go. With an Omega (I used to have one) I could never get that unit past 70 gain without horrific chattering. But my new F5 is as quiet as a mouse. No chattering in my yard at all, where the Omega used to chatter. My question is: Do I use the ground phase data to decide how to set my Gain and threshold??? I want maximum depth of course. But I don't want my ground sound to interfere with deep signals. But really, there is no ground chatter to speak of. What would be a good starting point??? I have always ran the sensitvity as high as I could without being effected by emi or iron falsing. These yards will have a trash here and there in them. I will attach the Ulitimate coil this afternoon and keep it on it for deep silver (I hope). I can already tell that this unit has an afinity for silver whereas my Minelab (with 18.75 coil didn't seem top like it as much).
But my Minelab air tested at the same depths as I have seen posted and on youtube so the Minelab is in good working order. According to the F5 iron graph, the Minelab wasn't lying about my iron content of my soil. It usually runs at one bar and sometimes two. Never three unless I am over a piece of iron. I am sorry that my ideas have got jumbled together in this thread that I am attempting to start. My main question again: What is a good rule of thumb on how to set up my machine for a specific yard???? The ground phase readings? EMI? The iron graph readings?? All three? Or something else?
I noticed in my manual that the writers of it went to great length to explain ground conditions etc etc. I will re-read it again and try to understand it this time. It is towards the end in the manual. I could sense that they are wanting me to understand something, but I'm not sure what yet. But finding out is half the fun. The other half is probing through a freshly dug plug and seeing a glint of silver. Makes the ol ticker go tickety tickety tickety tickety tickety..... (in a Tim Conrad voice)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2012 12:35PM by Kevin B.

Am sure Mike will chime in as he is the F5 Guru......let the forum know if these larger DD coils have an affinity for those blasted rusty bottle caps and call them a high coin. I know the stock concentric will hit them at times(not a problem) as the meter reading will bounce all around with high numbers...
PS: used an early Omega and was a chatterbox and radio shack quality build while the F5 was much quieter and built much better but its the newest model...

Yes Dan, my finding are the same as yours. MUCH quieter!! And solid build. The box doesn't move around when you are screwing the coil cable into it. I will report back on bottlecaps and if it has an affinity for them. There is one yard I hunt that is FULL of old rusted bottle caps. That would be a good place to start. But they were fooling the Deus too. But they might have been fooling the guy behind the Deus. Namely: MOI!

Thats the way the New Omega's run Kevin..I can run mine at 99 inside the house in front of the t.v. ..

One thing on the Omega/F5 platform is I am not for sure the ground bal travels the full range in dic mode....

I know it moves but I think it has parameter's it stay's in no matter where it shows up at..
I think it works for the all metal side ,,,pinpoint... so it will be usable ..but I can set it anywhere I want and hunt in disc zero mode with no ground feedback like other detector's...

I think theres a window...

One thing I find questionable on the platfrom is certian coins in my garden and real world hunt's will not report...no grunt or high tone...
I think the machine is so busy trying to remove iron it removes real target's if the dirt is too bad...You can work around it if you know it's doing it.IF you are in isolated hunt's.

I find the 39's are the ones that are the suspect's...they can be there in all metal mode but not even show up in disc mode...and thats the default number for deep and iffy target's...

I think this is tied into the ground bal on disc side or at least in the programing...

You can hear a burried 7 inch quarter but not a burried 7 inch nickle in my garden...yet check it in all metal and it blows the headphones off...Only platform I have ever had that does this quirk..

But it does run smooth in iron...But it does leave stuff in iron or bad dirt...yet on real high conductor's like items bigger than a quarter.. it's insanely deep...

It is a great compliment to the G2...if that makes sense..

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 06:05PM by Keith Southern.

You know, Keith, day before yesterday, when the F5 was already on the UPS truck and half way here, I called Bart in the hopes of turning it around in route and swapping for a new Omega. Yours is not the first post that I have read where the new Omegas no longer chatter at full gain. (Yes, I wonder what was sacrificed to achieve this quieter operation, if anything was). But....I didn't want to sound like a full range nut so I said to just forget it and that i would take the F5 when it got here. Plus, I got it at a good price. And All Metal (or...auto-tune) on this unit BLAST the eardrums on all of my buried targets....12 inch Minie included. So, it would be an excellent Threshold Based all metal hunter in the woods and in fields where everything gets dug. I'll tell ya one thing....the F5 Control box is BIG!!! They could put a hinge hear and there and make the F5 fold up, coil and all, and fit inside the control box!! LOL Just pull the F5 from a pocket, mash a button, and stand back as it uncoils and springs into the shape of a detector!!!! ( I will send off for a patent for that idea immediately so don't anbody go getting any wise ideas.........ROTFLing)

I dont think anything was scarificed Kevin...The new one's run like the old one's Just less EMI..

You are actually able to get more out of them audible wise when the chatter is missing...they have discovered new EMI reducing methods through trial and error...I heard they had to start doing this because there was a cell tower built across form the El Paso plant and they started to see the effect's of EMI...Thank goodness for the cell tower LOL!!!

I think the F5 was put into that box as retro fit...it shares the then already in use Bounty Hunter boxes...

The Omega came out late and was streamlined to fit in the Awesome ergonomic package...

Some people like the F-5 becasue of the seperate control of thresh and sens...but now that the emi is better on the Omega I think it's not that big of a deal..

Dave J. was using his head when he had the sens max at 70 on the Omega....that probably equal to the F5 at like 90 or more...
The the rest of the 71 to 99 was thresh being added....sort of like a dual control operating on one control knowb....same on the all metal sens...get it high enough and thresh comes in...

But a Quite F5 should have the same performace as a Quite Omega..or very close when all thing's are equal...just ergonomics are different...

Not sure why Tek did not build a F-70 copy...or is the T-2 too close....price and performance...

Out of all the Tek machine's I think the 6.6 T2 is the best unit they have built...

I could also run that version wide opne 99 sens and dig DEEEEEEEEEEEEP....

Keith

So when possible, I should run my F5 with full gain AND full threshold. If, on the Omega, all of the threshold parameters exits from 70 to 99, that must include all of the negative numbers and the positive numbers. (On the F5 the numbers run from -9 to +9) So from what i gather, all of these (-9 to +9) were put into the Omega's Gain control from 70 to 99. That makes sense. The only thing the F5 has, then, is the abilty to adjust threshold at ANY GAIN setting.
I wanted to share something that I have just discovered. In my 7, 8, and 9 inch bullets (been buried a little over a year), if I SCRUB the ground with the 11 inch coil, I get sporadic hits (sometimes lo tone, sometimes hi tone) but when I lift the coil to where it barely does NOT drag the ground, I get a clearer more precise and continuous hi tone. That was pleasing to learn.
My soil at my house is averaging 2 Bars on the Iron display. It consistently ground phases at 48. So my soil isn't quite as bad as east tennessee. But it DOES make me wonder why I couldn't get the CZ-3D that I bought from nasaTom to hit those bullets and coins at deeper depths. Truth be told, I don't think that I gave the CZ enough time and effort.

Yes Kevin the F5/Omega's work well with an airgap...i.e. Pinestraw....

I found the CZ not to work well on purposely burried target's.

it like's the halo for sure...

Not sure where the Omega is at thresh wise when sens is at 70.. but the way the older ones used to chatter toward's 85 I would think they are probably in the negative number's at 70 or so....

or 70 might be like 90-95 sens wise on the f5 then as you go beyond more thresh is added and a little sens...

What happens when you run the thresh wide open and the sens wide open on the new model...is it sporadic noise or constant overwhelming noise..Air wise...

I like to work as much full on as I can....I have never bought into the low beams in fog scenario....I have done dozens and dozens of testing before digging target's and the higher the gain the better the signal return ..sometimes without the high gain, target's will not be heard especially at depth...

It might not give you the PROPER text book perfect signal you want but weird scratchy signals are better than no signal's.You have to remember most people who run machines are looking for proper I.D. and proper stabiltiy...

More target's are found in iron and in ground the more power you have with proper type coil's but thing's get funky and hours and hour's of experience operator's will use that noise to advantage..."less is more" is a SAFE zone....

It takes years and years to become proficient working through noise....So if it's not your cup of tea dont feel discouraged...theres still plenty to be found...Dont try to learn too much to fast..

Alot of detectorist have detected for decades and some of the stuff they/we do is second nature but for someone who has hunted even 10 years and more have yet to pick up on subtletie's..

What I am mainly saying Kevin...What works for one detectorist and what one detectorist sees may be completely opposite from your fiding's...but it's usually from experince....Not a bad machine or other problem's..If you are still doing this 15 -20 years from now you will know thing's about running machine's that is just as simple as grab and go and excel with the same setting's other people will struggle with...

I know you read alot on the net and thats great and want to try new and different detector's thats fine ...But be careful everything you read is not set in stone...Things I say are not set in stone..And when You use a new detector before dismissing it know excacty why you are dismissing it...
Theres very few detector's I personally have a problem with...I have some gripes about this and that and require certian thing's that someone else might not but in the soil they get real close...it's more operator than machine...

I can already see you haveing an awakening...I believe you notice that A vs B machine is not a whole lot different in real world hunt's..

If you cans ee the added benefit's of one certian machine above all other for your type hunting you will profit more...

Now wet salt is a different set of rules turn the power back or find a machine than ignores it...LOL!!



Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 08:06PM by Keith Southern.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But it does run smooth in iron...But it does leave
> stuff in iron or bad dirt...yet on real high
> conductor's like items bigger than a quarter..
> it's insanely deep...
> Keith

Keith, I remember a discussion about this back a couple of years ago.
It is not unusual for a lower freq transmit to be less sensitive to lower conductors.

My question has to do with the part I have quoted from you above..."about leaving stuff in the ground".
Now if it is that tiny non-ferrous stuff, that is not much concern to me, if the unit rolls off in depth, even on nickels then that I can understand and again...not as concerned.
But what is your surmise concerning the mid conductors....say slightly below the zinc area and going on up in high conductivity...how does it do with those conductors in iron?

Again though...we all must remember there is no perfect detector...so trade-offs have to be weighed out and decisions made concerning different objectives.

Yes Steve Low freq's like High/ Large conductor's...

The Omega is strange in some ways ...it like's small thing's very well...out of iron...it like's high conductor's in iron or out...it's the range like nickle mid 50's that can get pulled too low averaging in dense nail's that casues the weird one way hit's...

The Omega in iron is very hard to produce buttons in my opinion...I can tell how many buttons I dig on average.. and the Omega does not produce them in iron sites like I am partial to...Yet it unmask a high coin and bigg brass very very well in iron...

Dont confuse diggin shot gun hulls with digging Button's....

Some say it's weird shaped foil target's that get lost in the one way hit's but I have found mid good conductor's also get PULLED into that range on the Omega..and stuff will get lost...medium iron not a problems but machine gun rapid fire iron thats espeacially on the surface like house site nails does casue distortion...again the G2 compliment's the Omega very well ...the G2 does not do this...but the G2 is WEAK in the areas the Omega is strong....

The Omega is looking for high coin's and also recent drop's....

I think the Omega is a Silver coin hunter's dream...

A big ol morgan dollar will not hide from the Omega...

Just my experiences Steve...other's my see it different...It easy to see the nickle range in iron weakness when you run other higher freq DD machines though the same spot's with signals coming in...Not great signals or night and day signals but an advantage all the same..

The omega is set up to be a smooth runner in trash looking for coin's...and it does this extremely well..

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 08:26PM by Keith Southern.

Hi Kevin,
Welcome to the world of the F5

Rule of thumb for setup is FE304 reading and EMI. Use the FE304 for Gain decisions and EMI for Threshold decisions. If the FE304 isn't maxing out, crank up your Gain. Then set the Threshold to whatever setting is stable based upon your EMI. (remember the two stability points, setup for the one you are going to be hunting in) Once you get the Threshold up to zero it is wide open. Threshold settings above zero operate a weak target audio boost feature. If ground and EMI lets you, there is nothing wrong with running both settings maxed out. If you get into heavy trash and have trouble with multiple targets drop your gain, but leave your threshold setting as high as you can.

There is a lot of information on the display and the everchanging ground phase number display can distract you if you let. However it is useful on deep targets. When you get a jumpy TID number on deep targets, use the ground phase number to id it. If you do the sovereign wiggle over the target the ground phase number will stabilize to a single repeatable number which you can use for target id.

The F5 handles iron differently than the Omega. By that I mean you can't id between wire and nails like you can on the Omega. On the F5 iron is iron and the id isn't as fine. However the F5 iron cut off is top notch. It also has an expanded high conductor side that the Omega may not have, so you need to check out deep 99 TID at a site to see if they are positive conductors moving up due to minerals or iron bleeding over.

Just be careful because the audio boost feature of the positive threshold numbers will spoil you to other detector's audio. You'll find yourself willing to run the gain at 35 if that is what is required to keep a + threshold setting.

Have fun!

HH
Mike

Extreme knowledge in your answers, Mike.
Always enjoy reading your post.

Mike Hillis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Kevin,
> Welcome to the world of the F5
>
> Rule of thumb for setup is FE304 reading and EMI.
> Use the FE304 for Gain decisions and EMI for
> Threshold decisions. If the FE304 isn't maxing
> out, crank up your Gain. Then set the Threshold
> to whatever setting is stable based upon your EMI.
> (remember the two stability points, setup for
> the one you are going to be hunting in) Once you
> get the Threshold up to zero it is wide open.
> Threshold settings above zero operate a weak
> target audio boost feature. If ground and EMI
> lets you, there is nothing wrong with running both
> settings maxed out. If you get into heavy trash
> and have trouble with multiple targets drop your
> gain, but leave your threshold setting as high as
> you can.
>
> There is a lot of information on the display and
> the everchanging ground phase number display can
> distract you if you let. However it is useful on
> deep targets. When you get a jumpy TID number on
> deep targets, use the ground phase number to id
> it. If you do the sovereign wiggle over the
> target the ground phase number will stabilize to a
> single repeatable number which you can use for
> target id.
>
> The F5 handles iron differently than the Omega.
> By that I mean you can't id between wire and nails
> like you can on the Omega. On the F5 iron is iron
> and the id isn't as fine. However the F5 iron
> cut off is top notch. It also has an expanded
> high conductor side that the Omega may not have,
> so you need to check out deep 99 TID at a site to
> see if they are positive conductors moving up due
> to minerals or iron bleeding over.
>
> Just be careful because the audio boost feature
> of the positive threshold numbers will spoil you
> to other detector's audio. You'll find yourself
> willing to run the gain at 35 if that is what is
> required to keep a + threshold setting.
>
> Have fun!
>
> HH
> Mike

I have not found the audio of the FT product's to be on par to some other offerring's...Yes it is talkitive...
Of course nothing talks like the old machines we had to run in the late 70's early 80's analog...Wise...A conveying audio can do wonders at unmasking even if the speed is not there...

The best modern audio I have found is the AT series...Digital audio has not reached it's full capabilities..I hope at least...LOL!!!

Apologies first for a slight sidetrack as always enjoy Mike's informative posts....I wish I knew what he does about ring hunting w/F5...lol....

Keith back to our exchange, my post should have been more specific...how does the small coil (5") do in the nail beds as relating
to the mid to hight conductors? (F5/Omega)

In these areas I realize Explorer with 5" coil sometimes shuts down.
I also have the 6" with it but it acts more like a large coil...really hot off the edges so doesn't work as well as the 5"coil.

I don't know but looking for something similar to Xterra w/6"DD in performance, a little better would be real nice.
If either Omega/F5 would do this, that would be great.
I am not as concerned about stock coil/ 11DD performs...mainly the small coil.

I have to have either a 5" or 6", coil absolutely no bigger for what I need, 6" coil with some detectors is too big.

NO text.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2012 12:28PM by Kevin B.

Steve I would look into testing a 6" DD 3 Khz coil for your terra...

I like the Omega/F5 platform but really unmasking in a bed of nails even the small 5 is not up to that task compared to some other's..It's functional but not the Best choice..As the iron thins out the platform becomes more productive...Again were talking about iffy signals becoming no signal's..

Things are not that dramatic on hunted out sites...its the slight squeaky fringe signals we try to acquire..

Again compare a G2 to an Omega for a few hunt's and you will see which one with same size coil's find in dense iron..and see which one finds deeper target's when isolated...Some of the strong poitns conductor wise will overlap each other..

Nothing beats a GMP or DEUS in iron for unmasking period( unless the 3030 is doing something awesome) a couple are even but cant out do...even when they have the 9 inch coil and the contender's can use a small coil...

I have a machine right now that might become another contender but want to test it before posting...

My picks for iron hunting looking for masked target's...

The Best FT machine is a T2.Small coil. I have not found the G2 or Omega to unmask any better than the T2...they can offer a certian advantage to certain things but not unmasking even with the G2 tone break option..
The Best Fisher machine is a F75 small coil
The Best Garrett is a AT-PRO W/5x8 BT coil
The Best Minelab 705 holographic sticker 6" or elliptical
The Best XP is a GMP followed hair splittingly close by the DEUS coil is 9" and it's still the one to beat.
The Best Whites is a MXT 4x6 DD
The Best Tesoro is a TEJON 5.75 concentric
The Best compass is a Gold scanner Pro.. 6 inch concentric
The Best Discovery is a Tresure baron with Gold traxx..6 inch

All machines need to be running properly.

The search goes on...These are just my choices for hunted out iron holes...

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2012 07:04AM by Keith Southern.

Thanks, Keith, I realize most are not as interested or perhaps as crazy about small coils and sticking them in the most nail infested areas they can find
as I do hence this information may not be as important.
For some reason I am drawn to these areas, dig out some large iron and see if there is anything left that can be detected.
No doubt there is untold items that will never be unearthed because nails are all over good stuff.
One of the last frontiers.

Keith said it all with one sentence(I know you read alot on the net and thats great and want to try new and different detector's thats fine ...But be careful everything you read is not set in stone)....surely some good guidelines to be had especially on this forum but time in the field and a little experimenting is where its at...at least in your neck of the woods...

Hey Steve

Yes dense iron has to be a type of hunting you enjoy...some it hate some love it...I think we love it!

On your explorer comment about the 5 inch shutting down, I wish you could try the S.E.F. 4.5x7. It would open your eyes to the further abilities of the explorer.

Keith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2012 05:51PM by Keith Southern.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Kevin
>
> Yes dense iron has a passion to it
>
> On your explorer comment about the 5 inch shutting
> down, I wish you could try the S.E.F. 4.5x7. It
> would open your eyes to the further abilities of
> the explorer.
>
> Keith
I don't own an explorer. I was talking about an F5 with an 11 inch coil......I think.....heck, I forgot what I even started the post about.

I am sorry Kevin.....I was talking to Steve...

So many different sub topics come from a main topic...

I sometimes get confused,and most of the time I am in a hurry when I type..I type through a phone, tablet, p.c. laptop etc...LOL! so I appologize..

Keith