CZ21

Im curious.... i dont see a lot of posts or maybe im not paying attention, from the CZ21 people. Someone give the good, bad and ugly on that machine? Im told they like iron and the quality control is so so, you get a good one or maybe not. I know most prefer the DD over the concentric coil. I read there isnt much difference in depth.... but they are cheaper than an Xcal and by the way the 8 and 10" arent the same price, better warranty, comes with a straight shaft and appear to have quality headphones and i can tell you from experience they have to have better CS. Are the coils hard wired to the box? Any other coils able to be swapped on these machines, like an SEF or some other CZ series? Why arent these the best deal out there.... is it hype or is it Xcals ability to dislike iron that people like?

Dew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2013 02:34PM by dewcon4414.

CZ21 and Xcal are certainly two great saltwater units and probably a coin flip as many like either. CZ is deeper and many like the multi tones of the Xcal.
Coils are handwired on the CZ21 and again some like the concentric of the CZ and some the DD of the Xcal.
On a saltwater setting I would be confident with either but Xcal is better rel iron masking.
In freshwater situations would look into Tesoro water units as they excell in finding gold jewelry especially the real small targets...

dew,
1. ........ im sure you have seen caspers posts and there are others using them as well.
2...............as far as iron goes im not sure how to answer that? my cz20 and cz6a both in disc mode setting od 0 will hit iron and either give an iron grunt or a high tone that is smeared/not the same as a coin.
3...................quality control, i think there were some transition issues around the time ftp took over fisher but those have been resolved as far as i know.
4.....................dd vs concentric, i dont know.
5........................depth vs excal , most say depth and sensitivity are equal. joe(obn) has a video on youtube that shows a stock cz21 blowing the doors off of a amped up modded excal!!!
6............................coils are hardwired and i have seen a couple people change coils on there own but nothing like the ammount of people that mod thier excals. as far as i know there are no aftermarket coils like the sef or wot unless you include the sunray 12" which is no longer made!

7............................... why are excals more popular, they seem to be more versitile as far as information you get in the excals tones and being able to mod the unit with coils, headphones, pinpoint buttons etc: some excal users claim that nulls are never good targets and that the detector is capable of nulling a piece of iron next to a gold ring and still seeing the ring but i have not seen this done!

my opinion......................when hunting the beach people get way to confident in there machines ability to id a target correctly and dont dig targets they should. i think a big reason people are so successful with pi machines is that they dig it all and dont really have any reason (tone id) not to dig.

question for you........................why buy a cz20/21 right now when it looks like a new fisher or whites or ???? water machine might be just around the corner.
##### by the way, i think you would do very well over there with a aquasound, maybe go down and hunt with nikoly once and see how you like it.?
chuck


dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im curious.... i dont see a lot of posts or maybe
> im not paying attention, from the CZ21 people.
> Someone give the good, bad and ugly on that
> machine? Im told they like iron and the quality
> control is so so, you get a good one or maybe not.
> I know most prefer the DD over the concentric
> coil. I read there isnt much difference in
> depth.... but they are cheaper than an Xcal and by
> the way the 8 and 10" arent the same price, better
> warranty, comes with a straight shaft and appear
> to have quality headphones and i can tell you from
> experience they have to have better CS. Are the
> coils hard wired to the box? Any other coils
> able to be swapped on these machines, like an SEF
> or some other CZ series? Why arent these the
> best deal out there.... is it hype or is it Xcals
> ability to dislike iron that people like?
>
> Dew

One thing that has always bothered me about the CZ-21 is that it is designed to find coins, not gold. In other words, the classic CZ stick the nickels in high coin theory is applied. Now, if you are a coin hunter and want nickels to beep high like other coins that is great. But if you are after gold, the tones are not in proper order. Nickel range should be mid tone.

I am not debating whether disc is good or bad, just how it works. If I have a CZ and want to narrow my search to likely gold targets I can dig mid tones only and that is pretty good. But rings, like the wedding ring I personally wear, that fall in the nickel range, get ignored.

So I can dig the high tones also, but now I am digging clad like crazy. For all intents I am digging all non-ferrous targets now. Yeah, yeah, that may be a good thing but it is not how it should work.

On the Excalibur mid tones all read in the normal proper conductivity order.

I much prefer almost everything about the CZ over the Excalibur but this one fly in the ointment really bothers me. When the CZ-21 came out I thought "aha, they are finally going to fix this one thing so many people have complained about"! What a disappointment.

I really am not an Excalibur fan either. Not for how it performs, but for its physical layout. Goofy is what comes to mind when I look at one.

Land machines are doing good but water machines leave a lot to be desired.

Steve Herschbach

Prospecting Since 1972 at DetectorProspector.com

Steve's Mining Journal - - Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting "How To" Guides - - Equipment Information & Reviews - - Public Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting Sites - - Gold Mining Claims For Sale or Lease - - Steve's Guide to Gold Nugget Detectors



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2013 05:17PM by Steve Herschbach.

steve, cz's are supposed to if working properly id most gold rings as foil, tab or nickle! this shuld be a mid tone on most cz's not a high coin tone!
the cz3d is different i think but still id's most gold as foil or tab(mid tone) with a special nickle tone that is still below high coins. 4 tones compared to three on other cz's.
if your talking about high kt or large gold rings, they could id as high coin tone?
chuck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2013 08:02PM by seeker41.

I believe all CZ's hit the standard nickel as high tone. The CZ3D will, in some instances, hit older nickels like Buffs, V's, etc. as a high tone whereas a CZ5, CZ6a and the others, would possibly hit those as mid tone.

The enhanced mode of the 3D brings certain targets into the high tone area.

I see where Steve H is coming from, in that some bigger gold rings will fall into the nickel range, hence hitting as a high tone, and if one wants to concentrate on purely low conductors and not dig any of the high tones, they would not dig those type of targets.

In reading Andy S's book where he did a test on 161 gold rings, about 27 ( close to 17%) fell in the nickel/coin range (aka high tone) whereas the rest ( 134....83%) fell into the mid tone range. None of the rings tested hit as low tone iron.

So if you want to strictly hunt mid tones looking for gold rings, you would, theoretically ( based on Andys' test targets), miss about 17% of them if you don't dig the high tones.

One of the good things about a metered CZ is the fact that you can look to see where it will ID a high tone, and not dig any of the high tone 'coin' ID's and only the nickel ones since they have a separate segment just for nickels....but that would still leave 7% of the rings ( based on Andy's test cases) missed since 12 of those rings hit in the clad/silver range on the meter.

Below are the stats for each category based on a CZ6a meter:

0 in Iron tone cat
25 in Ring Pull tab cat
61 in Foil
48 in Square Tab
15 in Nickel
8 in Zinc
4 in Clad/Silver

I would think that of those rings missed that hit as high tone, most are the bigger banded rings and not the smaller ladies rings with diamonds/stones in them. Still, there are some big mens rings out there with big stones so ya never know.

As most know, I am partial to CZ's for several reasons, as they suit my detecting style and what I want in a beach unit. Having used both CZ's and Excals, I have found the performance on the salt water beaches I hunt, to be equal ( ie, depth, stability, sensitivity to gold). Me, I like concentric coils, manual ground balance, 3 tones and the ability to listen to iron in discriminate mode....hence me preferring a CZ over an Excal.

Main thing is what can the detector do for you, performance and feature wise, in the conditions you hunt in. Does not matter what others say. Unfortunately based on trial and error, several machines need to be used so you can gauge what works best in the environments you hunt....as well as what features it has that you like vs dislike.

Luckily for us, there are reputable hunters out there that list used units in the classifieds, so we don't take a bath on buying new units only to find out it's not the one we need.

hmmmmm........... just did some tests and yes some large gold rings gave a mixed high/mid tone and did register in the nickle slot.,
medium and small gave a mid tone and registered as foil or tab.
a tiny gold infants ring was consistantly foil tone and meter id.
a modern clad nickle gave a high tone or a mid tone depending on distance from the coil but allways id'd on the meter as nickle. i did not realize the nickle would id as a coin(high tone) as often as it did!!!!!!

basicly acted the way i thought with larger rings and higher kt working there way into the high tones. i understand your point steve! i try to dig it all at the beach since i know gold can come in anywhere depending on the size or depth or kt.
chuck.

I have a cz20 that I purchased back in 2000 and had it upgraded to the cz21 2 yrs ago. I love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything out there. They come with a belt clip for hip mounting which is great because you can hunt all day with little fatigue. I've hunted 8 straight hrs with only a few 5/10 minute breaks while hip mounted. The coils are hard wired and you either get an 8 or 10 but they don't make any others for them - I had a 8 on mine but when I got the upgrade I had them put a 10 on it - helps with depth by approx. 2" on dime size targets. I've dug silver dimes at 10" mid/large size rings at 12"+ and quarter size targets at around 14" - I once dug a Ben Franklin 1/2 on a beach at 15" with the 10" coil. 8" coil you can expect 80% on those numbers. 3 tones are great - low = iron, mid = nickel/gold and high = clad/silver. Iron can fool the detector but usually only the larger pieces - smaller pieces (like a square nail) can be identified 98% of the time by pinpointing - it will sound a bit lower, usually break up or crackle and it will draw out longer than a good target - good targets will be crisp/clear sharp and not drawn out like iron while pinpointing. Easy to GB and has Auto-tune/all metal mode (good for hunting relics in wide open fields).

Most gold rings unless larger/very large read in the nickel (mid tone) range. White gold is a bit different - it can vary from ring to ring (mid to high tone) depending on size, kt. etc.

None of this is 100% though (as NO machine is) and it will take some time to get use to what the machine is telling you 95% of the time - the other 5% is up to the user & the experience of the user with some error as expected.

I also had an Ex-cal 1000 a few yrs back but I could never warm up to it the same as my cz - too many tones, too heavy, don't like recharging batts, knobs where an issue (always stripping out) and you had to buy the straight shaft or use the S style that it comes with which is straining on your shoulders/back. I know they're good machines too but not for me personally - I prefer the cz20/21 myself.

Hope this helps somewhat with your quest.

HH

MRH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 12:28AM by MichiganRelicHunter.

My CZ-6a always high tones on nickels and my smallish men's gold wedding ring. Corroded IHs and Lincolns high tone and register as a zincon on the meter. I believe this is how the CZ21 is designed too but unit to unit variability can shift the nickel window and mid/high tone break point significantly. My CZ-3D originally high toned only on large silver and copper until Tom gave it a tune-up.

Good point about the nickel window shifting Go Reb. There can be units whose window is not calibrated correctly and will hit mid tone on a nickel.

As always, ground conditions and condition of the coin play a part in how it will ID. In addition, for jewelry, what it is made up of ( ie, the alloy) will also play a part in how it ID's.

Lots of variables. Bottom line for me is, if I am in an old spot where wheaties and silver is being found, I dig all the mid tones too. Can be a pain in the butt, but I have found some older nickels and foreign coins that hit as mid tones...as well as some deep coppers ( never hit a deep silver as a mid tone....a low/high tone bounce yes, but never dug a silver with any mid tones mixed in....in soil. Wet salt beach is a totally different animal, and all signals are dug there except true repeatable low tones in the surface to 6 inch range. Deeper low tones with any other tone mixed in is a dig in the wet salt sand. I have found too many good targets with that type of signal to pass up. Mind you that is on beaches where there isn't a lot of iron. No way on iron strewn beaches).

However, you also get large rings like class rings to read a penny on the Xcal. I dig everything but a shallow bottle cap. There is about a $500 difference by time you mod the Xcal.... like better headphones and a straight shaft. Seeker.... im not jumping to buy a CZ im with you im waiting for the new machines. Im ready to be impressed..... i hope its the price that impresses as well lol. Im just trying to see why so many want to jump on board with the Xcal. I mean more mods required, higher price... more coming, fragle IMO, less warranty, bad CS. The Sov made it easy for the coil swaps. BUT .... im still not seeing why the CZ 21 isnt top dog it doesnt seem they have any issues.... short of quality control.

Dew

Quote
dewcon4414
.... im still not seeing why the CZ 21 isnt top dog it doesnt seem they have any issues.... short of quality control.

That's a huge issue.

like i said before, the quality control issues were a issue during the fisher to ftp transition. there are a lot of people out there that overstated the problems because they could not accept the fact that fisher was being/ had been taken over by "bountyhunter"(ftp).

i have a white cz coil that begain to fail(falsing due to the switchcraft connector) this is an original/old fisher coil. when i took the connector off and removed the silicon i found the coil wire leads were only partially soldered and not inserted into the solder cups but just tacked onto the outside of the cups. its like someone with no solder training performed this work!!!!! i have pictures and have been meaning to post them!

ftp/ the new fisher has outstanding customer service!!!!! they have done things for me that were above and beyond what they were required to do! some say that they have had bad service but i wonder if they had a bad attitude to begin with? i guess i can only go from my experiance and it has been outstanding!!!!!!
chuck.