My "Cleaned" 1866 Seated Dime

This piece is certainly the most "rare" coin I've ever dug, having a mintage of a mere 8,000. I found this with my first generation F75 on the site of an old home near Reidville, SC barely 4" in the ground. It came out of the ground very dark, nearly black, but was caked with dirt so I didn't really know what I had at first. It registered high 70's, was clearly round, and I was certain it was a coin. The ground was saturated after a recent rain so I proceeded to gently wipe the coin in a nearby standing puddle. I knew 1860's dimes were generally rare but I didn't know how rare until I referenced my Red Book.

The 1866-s dime is more common than the Philadelphia product, and many S-mint coins for that year were struck with very weak mint marks, so weak in fact that they can barely be discernible. So off it went to PCGS, the premier third-party authenticator of US coins to be graded. However, they will not put a numerical grade on damaged, cleaned, corroded or altered coins.

I felt safe.





Back it comes with a "GENUINE" grade (very bad!) coded ".92" meaning that the grader deemed the coin to be 'cleaned' and thus ungradeable! What??? It spent all of ten seconds in a clear puddle! The down side is that the coin is valued at least one grade less than an 'original' coin, so if the agreed upon grade is say... "VG", then the value would be for a "GOOD". That's a $250 difference in my 2012 Redbook. The upside is that the coin is unquestionable genuine, and of the rarer Philadelphia mint.



There is a slight glossiness to the coin, especially on the reverse that may have bothered the PCGS grader. In addition, the left, lower rear of the coin, near the 8 o-clock position is slightly 'brighter' than the obverse or the remainder of the reverse. You can see that in the pics. I possible rubbed a little bit more in that area before dropping it into my pouch.

Moral of the story: Be very careful how you treat a potentially rare coin you dig from the ground. The most innocent attempt at cleaning can be very costly.

very nice i'm still on a quest to find one!

Just thinking here go-reb....How could they know it was cleaned? from micro-scratches. How do you surmise that the 'cleaning in the puddle' was the culprit and not something that happened to the coin before you found it.....or, happinings in your pocket/pouch from it rubbing abrasive dirt in your pouch? Very nice by the way, thanks for the showing.

There's no way to know for certain, but I believe that the difference in 'greyness' comparing the reverse near 8 o-clock and the remainder of the coin is the give-away. Now mind you, the difference is very subtle and barely discernible in the pics... but it exists. The coin could have been a little lighter in that area, due to uneven oxidation, but we'll never know. My rubbing of the coin certainly didn't help any.

I heard that if you over clean a little - let it sit in Vinegar for awhile and the patina will even out...

Thats a pretty dime Rebel....

Congrats on the find ...

Remember my Buddy's 1795 Half dime


Heres what it graded


Sort of a toss up...Grade it environmentally damaged or improperly cleaned...

He still got a choke load of money out of it...but not like a AU would of brung...

Keith

Yup, I remember that one... simply stunning! So, because of the position it way lying, the obverse was naturally 'cleaned' where the reverse remained 'inert'.

We pull these out of the ground and yet we gripe...

Getting a little suspicious with these PCGS people. Overloaded with grading, stamp it improperly cleaned...next. Of course if the coin was sent in again and it came back with a grade...hmmm.
What do they charge for their services?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 03:55AM by ozzie.

PCGS charges $30/coin after you become a member of the "Collector's Club". Then there's shipping and insurance both ways.

It adds up.

You cannot ship coins to them directly unless you join the club. There are different levels of membership; I chose the 'Platinum" level to avail myself of all their resources. That is an additional $199/year.

It adds up.

You can have a brick and mortar coin dealer ship them for you but they will usually charge a fee, unless you know them very well or do a good deal of business with them.

It adds up.

ozzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Getting a little suspicious with these PCGS
> people. Overloaded with grading, stamp it
> improperly cleaned...next. Of course the
> coin was sent in again and it came back with a
> grade...hmmm.
> What do they charge for their services?

More like -

if you send in 1000 coins or more per year and are a BIG spender / buyer of their service/s = you get BETTER service (better grades!) and if you're a little guy sending in 1 coin or so per year or every other year = you get "jack" for your money (lower/crappy grade/s)!

All coin dealers know this to be true :-)

Test it out on a coin (like a CC Morgan) that ALL DAY LONG should bring a grade of MS65 and would IF dealer "A" that spends $10,000 per year in having coins graded by them sends it in but - since YOU are just 1 guy and only send 1 or 2 coins per yr and only spend $35 to $70 per yr - see what grade YOU get on that same coin! The BEST way to test this "theory" is - bust out a CC Morgan in a MS65 holder and send it in! We've done it in hopes of getting even a better grade! BUT - have only had them come back MS64 by THE SAME GRADING COMPANY!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen it time and time again over the last 20/25 years

P.S.

that's why you can't place too much on the "grade" of a coin in a holder these days - they don't have the strict grading standards of the past

you'll see coins in holders graded ms64/65 that wouldn't pass for more than simple BU (ms60) all day long but because it was sent in by one of the BIG spenders - it got a better grade in their favor (you pat my back = spend BIG and I'll pat yours = better grade)!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 04:04AM by MichiganRelicHunter.

A Ha! Typical isn't it, I should have known. Same practices as everywhere else...human nature.

The patina/cleanliness of the low-relief areas ... vs ... the high-relief areas are one of the indicies. Surprised that PCGS did not grade the 1866 as "environmentally damaged" ...... which is a very common 'grade'.

And nice Dime BTW go-rebels ;-)

That's a great find in any cond. but I agree with Tom - they should have (and usually do) assign a grade of Genuine but also add "environmental damage" on the label. They can tell when the coin has been dug and usually attribute it via grading.

HH

"Environmental Damage" is code ".97"

After all the belly-aching from customers who sent in coins to be graded, and later returned un-graded and marked "GENUINE", PCGS has now changed their practices and adds a grade to the coin (like ANACS). So a coin may now read, "GENUINE, Questionable Color, AU Details".

It's an improvement.

That's good to hear!

Moral of the story carry a padded container to put these types of coins in. Early on really devalued a Barber Half. Don't know about your area but we have coin collectors that will professionally clean. Great find my friend and one never knows what our next dig will be or for that matter the condition...Never will forget that 16 dime that was like new without the D mint mark or the seated quarter my buddy dug with mint luster on it...

It still is a very nice looking coin, despite the grading.

Detecting since Feb, 2010
E-trac with 18"x15" SEF, 13" Ultimate coil, Pro coil, Minelab 8" coil, 4.5"x7" SEF, Sunray target probe
CTX3030 with 17"x13" DD coil, 11" DD coil

How do you guys clean coins to get rid of the dirt and corrosion soak them in olive oil or something. Or do you use some form of electrolysis and how often do they come back as environmentally damaged or improperly cleaned.

PCGS uses what they call coin sniffers now to determing if any cemicals were used to clean a coin. So much for the kids and their small collection.... its all about investors now days. Used to be able to sell some GREAT coins at a fair price..... then companies like PCGS, coin world and others saw a buck to be made. Investors and many collectors insist on graded coins any more.... they have to.

Dew

Nice coin and find rarity any way you care to describe the coin.

Still amazes me that this coin has little value.

1866 8000 minted
1916 'D' 264,000 minted

( 8K vs 264K )

That's a +30X "volume" difference........ yet,,,,,,,, the 1916D has MUCH more 'dollar' value.

I 'prize' the 1866!

I'm amazed at the circulation numbers they still go by, how many of these coins have been melted down, rarity should be how many are in the known, but they don't do their homework , great coin and it's in great shape, PS, you buy a coin for 100 dollars, it's worth a 100 dollars in everybody's books, you sell that coin to a collector or a dealer, try getting the 100 back

Very nice Seated, glad she cleaned up for ya.

It's an interesting case regarding some of these low mintage, oft-neglected coin series. Many folks put together sets of Mercury dimes from circulation in the 1950's, the beginning of the numismatic boom, but few collected Seated dimes by date. Thus the low demand and the lower price compared to other coins having higher mintages. Remember: supply and demand dictate price.

Try to find AG/Good 1916-d Mercury dimes on Ebay and compare that to finding a single 1865/1866/1867 business strike (not Proof) seated dime. One could assembly rolls of 1916-d dimes before finding a single genuine, non-proof 1865/6/7 Seated dime. (Proof examples are relatively common).

Nevertheless, the reference books (R.S. Yeoman's "Red Book" comes to mind) always significantly undervalue the low mintage, odd series coins. Again, this time looking at the 1867 dime having a mintage of only 6000, my 2012 Red Book shows a $400 value in 'Good' condition. Now Rich Uhrich is selling a 'Fair' 1867 for $1000 ( [www.richuhrichcoins.com] ). Why the discrepancy? Because the 1867 is prohibitively rare, coming to market only once every few years, and the Red Book undervalues such coins. Another example: I'm looking for a circulation strike 1884 3c nickel to complete my date collection. In XF condition the Red Book lists it for $550. I'd pay 4x that for a certified coin tomorrow if one were ever located. The last business strike coin I saw sold at auction over five years ago for near $1000.

Well stated! Exactly. Thanks for taking this time.