I can honestly pinpoint the ingredient for succes above all other's..its the BLEEDABILITY/BLENDABILITY (XP MACHINE THOUGHT'S)

via the silencer option of the XP machine's..

That's the one magic ingedient the other's leave out..

Oh sure we can have all the goodies together combined for the ultimate unmasker like we want

High Freq..
Variable Tone
Iron volume
DD coil
wide disc range in the nail area for high def precision...

they all are a must but the magic ingredient is the Silencer/Filter...To climb above the competition..

I can honestly pinpoint it...

Without the abiltiy to offer signal bleed at an intellignet audible level the others so far havent got it 100% right...BLEEDABILITY/BLENDABILITY is the 1-upper that no one else who offer the unmsking platfrom seem to include...Its that important..it must be there..

Whatever First Texas comes up with I hope they remember the filter option's...they can give us all the above but to compete on the Sleuth level for a true site unlocker the ability to BLEED the signal intelligently will make or break it form my current way of thinking..

I know I l say these same request as mentioned above all the time for a machine yet from trying alot of detectors it finally hit my between the eyes last week when acquired a older XP with no variable tone option but silencer option.. the variable tone option is not as important as the less filter of singal....it is paramount to break the tone dead on and is a must but the further class leading unmasking comes form the Bleedability...I can see it from comparing them side by side the GMP and the GM normal..its a crtical piece of the puzzle for going to the next level of unmasking...

quick info in the Goldmaxx (GM from here on)...the GM might have less filter of the signal on ZERO silencer than the GMP does on ZERO silencer...if I replicate the same tone break setting on the GMP as the fixed tone break on the GM then put them both on zero silencer the GM is more bleedy...but still intelligent...

the GMP is slighlty faster but hardly different than the GM in recovery response shutdown and if the zero silencer was any lower it might become too noisy less intelligent..

Same as setting the DEUS silencer and reactivity settings, on the DEUS if you get too fast the silencer must be turned up for intelligent hunting in iron..well the same seems to be happening on the GM Vs GMP...yet on a more less pronounced level...

the GMP is more intelligent in iron than the GM I am starting to see...The less bleed on zero combined with the faster Reactivity make for more recoveries...This is noticable testing the DEUS..get to fast and go too low on the silencer and the noise is unbearable in iron and not as productive as getting it right...

make no mistake about it the Filter option is must, but the right amount must be put into place...even on Zero there is still filtering happening...But its got to be precise..The GM and GMP silencer seem to be tuned a tad bit different on zero to allow for the differences in the slight reactivity speeds of both but the GMP seems to be dialed in slightly better...the GM seems to allow a bit more noise in on zero filter like maybe the zero setting is lower on the GM than on the GMP...

As you can see its a fine line..




Keith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 11:41PM by Keith Southern.

Wow, I have been giving the silencer function on my Deus alot of thought. Here is an interesting youtube link. If I have alread shared it....I apologize: [www.youtube.com]

I may also add the 3rd tone with Zero Silencer unmask better.

By this I mean say you have the pulltab and dime close to each other...the pulltab read's mid tone the dime high tone... the tone breaks at zinc...the closer you get the pulltab and dime together to the point of touching (place the pulltab on top of the dime) then the less silencer you use the better you will hear the high tone bleed through...

Test it yourself on the DUES or the GMP if you have one,test it on the higher tone's .. we dont have the exactness disc range up there that we do in the iron range but watch what happens if you aggresively use the silencer on a pulltab and dime..let the dime peek out form under the pulltab...watch what happens to the high tone report of the dime as you decrease the amount of filter...you will finally get to a spot where the high tone is intelligently heard..you may find the more you lower the Silencer the more the pulltab can cover the dime also..!

Remember we dont have the exact resolution when dealing in that zone yet notice what the silencer/filter does for you...

The test is just for the sake of showing what is going on as you decrease the silencer..now coupled with the exactness of resoluion in iron you will begin to see WHY the XP's see what they can see when set up right...they are already great but can be taken to even further unmasking if you wish,,

The silencer also helps with more severe mineral's by allowing More SEE THROUGH of dirt...Some bad dirts can mask a target just inches below the surface ...too high a silencer will kill the report...less or zero silencer will allow the dirt to be more noisy and at the same time allow for the legitimate target to eek through....just enough to report...

This is where you will see the silencer do its magic its in the smaller peeps and such that in iron or in bad dirt that would go unoticed...A leg up! As far as you dont go too noisy..Too noisy will come from to much reactivity like 3 4 and less silencer zero to -1...the falsing will become indistiguishble from the ultra fast hit's...no itelligence of the tone...

Also for comaparison note:

The GMP has a reactivity locked at 2 if comparing to the DEUS..you'll find the DEUS works very well at reactivity 2 with a low silencer of zero to -1 at times...A reactivity of 3 on the DEUS might or will by the way I hunt require the pulling up of the silncer one slot to Zero.maybe +1 but then you see why not go back to 2 reactivity and go lower on your filter it will accomplish more ..Fine Line's..

one thing Im not sure on is if the -1 silencer on the DEUS is the same as the GMP on zero or is it more extreme.because I do at times find the -1 to be overwhelming even on 2 reactivity on the DEUS....

So I am not sure they are the same on the silencer when there both as low as they can go...I bet not...because the DEUS can be set to reactivity faster or slower than the GMP so it only makes sense that the Silencer can go lower and higher than the GMP of which zero 1 or 2 it has...

Inteactions of reactivity and silencer must be used properly or its a hinderance on the DEUS...On the GMP zero is about right for the 2 reactivity that is factory set for any type real sleuth work...

When I had the DEUS I may have over did the silencer at -1 on some site's even at 2 reactivity...2 reactivity may be better equipped to use zero for intelligent hunts in certian irony site's..All this is on 18khz mind you..

The GMP is dialed in perfect for the freq and reactivity with the silencer settings it offer's...the DEUS is more experimental on sites to get it right...




Keith



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 11:48PM by Keith Southern.

Keith

you're making me want to go out and test this theory of yours with the reactivity and silencer settings in a couple of those sites I've been pulling the old coins out of

but

the freekin ground is frozen here and it's like 18 degrees out there so I can't!!

Did I mention that I HATE WINTER!?!?

This is an awesome thread. I will be watching this thread intently as it will be educational. Right now.....my XP Deus is in the hands of an ignorant man. I mean no disrespect to myself.....but I get the feeling that it could do so much better if I had a brain for figuring this stuff out. I have been using company preset configurations, which I use most.....mainly because I don't know what most EXPERT settings actually do. So I fully appreciate a thread like this. In the interest of friendship and cordiality.....I submit this post.

What Kevin said.

Funny I was out in the shop until dark messing with the reactivity and silencer and getting some kind of ideal gown they related. I defiantly had not got this deep into it and to be honest not sure i would have ever been able to.

Keith it's interesting you bring up the 3 rd tone. Being more interested in coins most of the time I was thinking along the lines of how you could really separate two targets if they all were high tone as in a two tone setting.
I am leaning more toward 4 tones but still working with that notion.

Any way thanks for your time and expertise.
I learn something every day from you guys and that is good.
Pac

A few years ago I would be now the owner of a Deus but as some of my free time is spent on other things I will wait and see what Fisher is coming out with I wish I could say more...

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Keith.......... your 'passion' is all FUELED again. Glad to see it.

You can see why I HAD to have a GMP. It may not be that deep; yet, it is like no other..... in reference to (and performance thereof) unmasking in carpets of nails.

To clarify something about the 3-tones of the GMP. Keith ......... take a U.S. $5.00 Half Eagle gold coin. See how the GMP ID's it. It's a high tone. And a Half Eagle is quite far from 'Zinc'. A Half Eagle is on the very low end of 'square tab' ID/conductivity (almost into the high end of the 'round tab' range). This is what makes the GMP a serious entrant for 'old coins' hunting.

Keith........... a lot of your reportings are exactly why I was raving over the GMP....... as reported in the XP GMP Field Test thread. Yet......... let's go one step further........... as I have just reported to you in a PM............ and realize this should be shared with all others. Here goes:
The GMP is nearly a 'continuous tone' reporting system. When the GMP passes over a target.... it will audibly report it. If...... IN THE MIDDLE of the audio reporting......... another target is introduced........... the GMP will audibly report the newly introduced target ALSO........ via blended audio of the TWO individual targets. Nearly all other detectors simply take a 'snap-shot' of the first introduced target............ then audibly report it....... TO INCLUDE being audibly 'locked up' with the reporting audio tone..... until completion of the audio tone. If a new target is introduced to the coil whilst the detector is still audibly reporting the first target.......... there is NO change....... as the detector is still busy reporting the first target....... and, subsequently, will NOT report the newly introduced target............ because the detector is still 'busy' reporting the first target............. as if the coil is 'turned off' whilst the detector is still busy reporting (and finishing) the audio tone (of predetermined audio length) from the first target. In other words.......... once the audio tone fires/initiates.............. the detector becomes 'busy'............ reports no further targets......... no matter how far the coil continues to sweep over more ground.......... missing other (close proximity) targets.......... until the detector becomes 'unbusy' with the initial target encounter audio reporting.

Soooo........... the silencer function of the GMP excentuates this critical phenomenon very well.

((( I'm deliberately trying to sound wordy/redundant..... so as to drive a educational point 'home' )))

I believe there are more engineering platform physics going on behind-the-scene ALSO............ making the GMP the flagship unmasker in carpets of nails.

Keith........... you seem keep having additional 'epiphany' experiences with the GMP (and other units). This will also reflect in your 'finds' success/ratio in the real world. A 950 coil equipped MXT does not have a chance up against a 9" DD coil equipped GMP. Albeit..... the MXT is quite quiet in carpets of nails............. and the GMP is very noisy in the same carpet of nails; yet, the GMP will far surpass the MXT in unmasking abilities ... via several order-of-magnitude technological generations advancement.

Thanks for the very detailed response Tom!!

I was not aware of the exact tone break of tone 3...I know the beaver tab was mid ...what is the double pulltab reading? ..split tone....I will check when I get home tonight..

Very unique ...

you know whats funny I spent about 30 minutes today typing up a reply in another thread to someone and then I deleted it..

the question was about the elliptical concentric small coil for the f75... I was explaining how the concentric I.D's iron/Tin better than the DD and that sound's like a plus, but yet in a real world hunt its a hinderance for unmasking when comparing it to the noiser 5 DD...

I thought it would casue more confusion that help so its not posted...LOL!

But yes a noisy machine can find more in unmasking as long as it's got enough signature to allow your brain to decipher intelligently..

I dug some targets the other day with the GMP that were very very iffy in the iron tone rolls and checked them with higher silencer and the tone did dissapear..the zero is a must for the hardest of target's.. and even as I found out the other day on a half a U.S. belt buckle lying next to a half hoseshoe in the same hole to get that signature you gotta have you disc right and your silncer low to give the signture report!

The At-PRO has an free flowing Audio as a Plus in unmasking, yet it's not no where near the same level as the GMP...but that's where the AT-PRO competes against the faster T2/F75 machine's for unlocking discoveries.. it does not do it with the speed of the T2/F75 it does it with BLENDABILITY...

The GMP can really paint a picture of whats below the soil if you listen...Its a stereophonic HD audio Vs a standard definition mono Audio...

I knew the signature of the split horsehoes littering the ground but the combo of half buckle in the mix alerted me to dig...I cant name another machine I know of at this point in my field trials that would of got that target!Other machines arent intellignet enough to dig that target....I should now a few dozen have swung it over and over LOL!!

dissecting nails is one thing but when theres enough signature to discern low brass out of a large piece of iron then we are ground breaking!

Heres a short vid I did Tom to illustrate what happened...
[www.youtube.com]

Thank's

Keith

It's nice the GMP does NOT have a ID meter!!! ..... for the purpose of 'forced' tonal intelligence education.

This is also one of the reasons Tom, why over here in the Uk, I and many other experienced detectorists only use the tonal responses to help make the decision to dig or not.
To many detectorists rely on Numeric values Only, as opposed to tones which our Brain can and will learn In a relatively short time.
Of course if the parmeters are changed and tones are adjusted its a whole new tonal learning curve, but still more accurate than relying on numeric values due to various variations and other factors.
Keith

I hunt with a F75 LTD quite frequently...... and recently, I covered the VDI ID display (with a large piece of masking tape).... to test myself. I have learned that I do not need the ID at all; however, I learned that I use the depth bar graph much more than I thought I did.
Same with a CZ. I had the ID meter covered for several months....... only to (instantly/immediately) learn that I never use it.
Audio intel is everything.

Interesting what you say, Tom, about tone, and not using the ID on the F75. I take quite a different stance, I think I'll start a thread on the issue, I have a few questions on the subject, too.

I've not mentioned it before, but I've been an owner of an XP GMAXX2 for a few months now, so understand the 'blended audio' idea, now, and as an engineer, realise what XP seem to have done - basically "all-metal with tone ID". A look at the circuit-board inside also seems to back this up. All conventional analogue detectors use differentiator / double-differentiator circuits to work out where the peak of a signal is, then give a tone ID for the signal at that peak. The differentiator circuits tend to require stable characteristics, and often matching characteristics to other parts of the circuit. This results in an abundant number of large-ish polyester fim capacitors, blue/red/yellow boxes all over the board. The XP circuit board is immediately seen to be different - there's not a single one of these things in it. Every capacitor seems to be the small ceramic type, not very precise/stable. This is because XP just don't use differentiators, the human ear/brain is left to do that job. It also accounts for the fast response of the machine. Differentiators are a kind of filter, and as such tend to work best when used as the designer intended, ie. when presented with a sensible coil swing speed signal. As the XP doesn't have much in the way of filtering, it doesn't care for a particular swing speed or target repetition rate.
It's also worth pointing out that the circuit board of the GMAXX2 is IDENTICAL to the GoldMaxxPower, just fitted with a few different component values to suit the different operating frequency, and the microcontroller seems to be programmed differently, for the same reason, I presume.

Sadly, I have to say I don't get on with the thing at all. I hate the way it throws all 3 tones at once at me, I've been trying it in 2-tone mode recently. The mid / high tone break seems to occur for targets around ID=40 on the F75, ie. complete removeable ringpulls. But as it's 'blended', without any clear step, the idea of using it for milled silver coinshooting like you do in the US, seems a poor idea. The tone-break point might also be a bit low? This isn't important to me, we normally dig non-ferrous relics here in the U.K.
But I hate the absence of 'modern' features on it. I'm grabbing for the pinpoint trigger - there isn't one. I want to see where that reckons the target is, compared to where the motion-mode says it is. I can't. No pinpoint means I don't know how deep the machine thinks the target is, so I don't know how much to believe the tone ID. No visual ID means I don't know if I'm getting a high 80's 90's iron false or a real tone, I can't tell large iron from small. My only recourse is dig and find out, whereupon I'm so often disappointed, iron, iron, iron. The last time out with it, four out of the first 5 targets I dug were iron. That's not good. True, I was intentionally trying to find deeper targets, particularly high conductors, so I was digging weak, scratchy, inconsistent non-iron tones, but even so. I keep wondering if that's just a low-frequency machine issue, I keep remembering comments about 5KHz Fisher 1266's 'loving iron', might be part of the problem.

And of course, the user manual is the worst. It tells you nothing useful, there's an entire paragraph still in French, they've obviously edited the GMP's one, as the still refer to it as a GMP several times. I see why people buy the instructional DVD's from John Lynn, and Roger Relic.

I'm going to persevere a bit more with it, but bearing in mind the large amont of money tied up in it, it's unlikely to redeem itself. I realise that I have 3 years experience on the F75, and little on the XP, but even doing head-to-head comparisons on undug targets, I'm struggling.

Pimento............ sometimes the more intelligent a person is......... the more difficult it is to 'unlearn' previous detectors/artifical intelligence........ even when stepping back with the XP platform. There is a ton of audible intelligence in the analog XP platform whereby 'iron' has a discrete falsing audio............ of which, , , hopefully..... will have a sudden 'light bulb turned on' in your tuition/education/experience(s). I have not hunted with the 4-Khz unit; yet, I suspect it has similar audio comm's as the 18-Khz platform.

I can read,and comprehend,understand what you have stated. But,it is still perplexing to me, in the field.
Ive read,a conductive target in close relation to a non conductive target,even tho the non conductive target especially a piece of ferrous will bring the signature/sound id down,But not all the way, as the conductive target in close proximity to the non conductive will keep the response up a bit,two targets blended together? thoughts,experience??? educate me
So, with a graph in the back of my mind, as you detect and sweep across a ferous target first and close by a non ferous (conductive),,would this be like a valley(ferous) becoming a small hump (non ferous) and the signal reporting this hump....??? Is this how it works. Refering to the GMP..... and on another faster detector the signal shuts down (as fast or as long as its endurance) and then reports on next target and if that is so, then a conductive targets only hope of recovery next to a piece of ferrous is maybe because of a small rise in its report, unless the conductive target is far enough away that the signal is shut down from the ferous target and is able to then report a second target which would be the conductive target(if the next target is of course conductive).
Just thought of another question,concerning the ETrac on this.... Is this what the ETrac is trying to do in the high trash setting (what has been called the see through) reading a higher report of two signals combined together vs the low trash where it just reports on the strongest signal ???
I am hoping what I have stated and asked is understandable.
You know,my biggest and I am sure others as well, problem is understanding what the signal is telling me. What confuses me is the falsing. To date, I have yet been unable to audibly distinguish it from a disried target. Sure, some falses are no doubt as they seem to scream all over the place, but many has been the time I have dug to find a nail,washer small piece of iron and nothing else.
I have watched many videos. So, what I am left with is just maybe Ive never had my coil across the correct scenarios as I have read about or watched on video.
Kieths latest video with the half buckle, it still all sounds the same to me and I played it over and over and over,lol. I am guesing it will take many years before I learn to distinguish it better. No offense meant Kieth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its just me.
Thanks,
John

John,

I believe I have fully answered exactly this........... and then some! ..... in the thread titled Rcpt Ack of F75 LTD Prototype. See if this helps.

It's a tricky one, this business of how alike the GMP and GMAXX2 are. There's plenty of advice and chat on the UK forums about the GMP, but they could be SO different in the way they respond to iron, after all, one is four times the freq of the other, so I'm a little cautious of what I read. And no-one uses the GMAXX here, it seems. There's a few with the ADX250 /Adventis, they seem happy with them, finding things at reasonable depth, but I don't think they really push the machine, or use it in hard environments. Some would no doubt advise me to get a Deus, but there are many reasons why I won't, plus you will notice that the GMAXX program on the Deus runs at 8KHz.
I suspect the GMAXX might benefit from a larger (11 inch) search-coil, being low frequency, but expense makes me unlikely to get one. I could say the same about the F75, actually, but I intend home-building one for that sometime, just for fun, really.
I have compared the two machines on test garden high / medium high conductors, eg. a 92.5% silver threepence (a very close half-dime equivalent) at 7.5 inches. The XP does give a quiet but consistent tone, whereas the F75 struggles and gives a jumpy iron / non-iron on that. With my experience of the F75, I would dig it, but the XP does seem to be a bit deeper.

Mineralization resultant.

John no offense taken LOL!!

But there is a tonal difference....watch it one more time...2 more time's...

listen to the signature of the Horseshoe...by itself..notice how much iron roll is on the beggining and the end of the target....the iron is the dominant resposne while the high tone is the smaller response...now place the half buckle in wiht it...notice the iron roll audio shrinks and the high tone is more dominant...

now without the iron audio the high tone would seem similar...but the rejected portion being heard lets me know that its more than just the half horseshoe...

yes I did dig whole hoseshoes pot pieces etc, being fooled by this tone.. but as you read the site and know your site then the GMP will help you be selective...

On the GMP once Im set up and running on a site and just using nail reject...as I dig target's I learn the signature...I know the site is littered with all sorts of iron objects of diffeent sizes but im relic hunting...so alot of the iron is worth digging ...

case in point the site being right beside a road bed with water its a cavalry pull off spot....they reshoed here...the abundance of broke shoes attest to this..but the site is also a house site too chimney, well hole etc...so thers alot of other iron intermingled...the nail's are signature known... and after awhile the half shoes are signature known by the sound...so now I dig 'out of the norm' signatures...and yes whole shoes kettle pieces tin etc is dug...

But that's the advantage of the 21st century machines we have..HD tonal report's...

This is ONE of the reasons the iron tone is so important..and its a full reprot iron tone..not like the F75/T2 and such though.. while great to have they do not have the full audio report..they are less conveying iron tone side.. yet still usefull to have.

the AT-PRO full gusto iron report is also very helpful in being selective in iron digs especially when the iron is larger...

This also brings us to what was mentioned earlier...Visual I.D. can not paint the picture a proper audio report can...

So when relic hunting and looking for relics...especially in sites that have already been hunted hard any little advantage to work the iron a bit better than someone else is paramount...

I have other machines that can get goodies out of iron.. the best American machine for that is the Tejon.. hands down bar non...but you really have to get into the audio...and till you learn the clicks and pops of the audio you will dismiss it as an inferior machine..but I have seen what it can do it worked to death site's...

The GMP goes one step further and gives us the full audio option, plus tone for rejected target...tejon single tone is like deciphering the high tone only of the GMP on the horseshoe compared to the co-colcate high tone..not alot of difference to decipher....

without the iron tone of the GMP being full audio it's like looking through a peep hole Vs looking out a window...

Oh sure theres alot of target's still bieng missed.. but learn the signatures gain an advantage..

Keith

Ive never been one to use a meter myself...To me they are gimmick for anything more than flash money hunting....I have and have had machines with meters..and I must say if you watch a meter I want to hunt your spot's...take an explorer or etrac or even 3030 ...those coins will not come up on the meter like they do in airtest...Oh sure some do at times but if you have patterns and such think of all the other coins that fall right out of the window from orientation,nearby masking etc...

T2/F75======== watch a shotgun hull it will be anywhere according to the gauge and brass content...and that's all over the button range ...as buttons move everyhwere too...

meters actually scare me...
Im not even fond of multi tone's..until the last few years I did not even want a Tone machine let alone look at a meter..

Keith

Keith......I find myelf looking at my XP Deus's meter (TDI thing or screen or whatever it's called) and I find myself letting the screen number be ONE of the factors that helps me decide to dig a signal. I saw a pic of the XP Deus's maker Alain Loubet's (spelling???) son (in the XP Deus book by Andy Sabisch in the chapter about meeting the production team) using an XP Deus (this lad was in his early teens) and he didn't even have the control box on the rod.
Please let me pose a question.......but first, with a statement: If the contol box with the TID screen in there.....I WILL look at it and will likely let the numbers be a big deciding factor in whether I dig or not. Question: Am I handicapping myself by doing that??? Please feel free to be fully candid with me about it. I need to know.
Let me close with a note....or, a post-script...: Where i am hunting right now, the ground balance is around 78 on the average though I check it regularly and manually make adjustments as needed. All of the targets are coming in at between 77 to 90. Doesn't matter what they are. The German bullet came in at 80 something but was jumpy. In fact, on all of the targets.....the numbers are jumpy. The trade token (unbelievably) even gave a high reading in the 80's as deep as it was. I really think that on Version 2 of the Deus......a number would not have been generated. Would it be wise for me to take my control box off the rod and put it in that leather pouch and put it in my front pocket??? (after proper adjustments are made). I can still whoop it out and re-adjust ground balance as needed. Don't have to re-adjust it much. It stays around 78. Sometimes the upper ground reading number will jump to 82 or so.....but no higher. Hope this makes sense. Thanks......kevin

This blending on the GMP, is it similar to the blending on the C Scope CS6MXI in the video?

[www.youtube.com]

Nice vid hungarian.

The Cscope I have looked into once.. but the lack of ability to variate the iron tone break turned me off..

it has a blendy sound for sure but it does not have the bleedy repsonse...

It is on 17khz and uses a dd coil and such but the way the iron I.D's too well and no variable iron tone split...I would not consider it to be on par with some others out of europe...

thank's

Keith

What is sad is the DEUS may have one of the worse I.D. meters to date...

When I looked at the meter on the DEUS I studied the horsehsoe more than the I.D. the hoseshoe was more accurate as far as iron and non iron...

that is the nice thing about the DEUS Kevin you can leave the box in the car...Yet I still like to have it on the shaft for adjsutment's...
On the DEUS if your rely on theI.D. you may actually dig more iron that you would tonal wise...seems like everthing deep reads good on the I.D. so maybe thats not a bad thing...LOL!!!

but seriously if you are in a ton of iron the I.D. is useless for the most part....it wont read right anyway's...

seperated iron with less co-location and such and shallower may be of a benefit if you can't dig it all..but for unlocking dense iron, forget the I.D.especially if you have really hunted this spot hard..

Keith

bump