Best deep MD for highly mineralized soil?

I've read all of Tom's info. on the CZ3D and would love to have one if it fits my need in this bad soil here in Alabama. I have two good detectors Minelab E-trac and CTX3030,however,they only reach 4-6 inches in most places because of the bad soil.In some areas of the state I have got a lot of good coins down to 7 inches.Around Birmingham I do good to reach 4 inches.I would like to find something to go back over places that I have detected.Either a PI or VLF anything that will detect old coins beyond the CTX or the E-trac. Thanks

A PI will certainly punch deeper. Even a Minelab SD-2200 would fair quite well; however, it's a 'all metal' unit. It would be my strongest recommendation that you 'try' a PI .... before you vest in a purchase.
Also......... you may want to try a XP GMP or XP Deus ((( these are not PI's; rather, VLF technology ))) and see how they handle/ID in your specific lateritic soil.

Tom, Do any of the PI's or the two VLF's you mentioned have depth VDI readings. If I come behind my CTX3030 I would like to know that I was targeting something deeper than what my CTX had detected.

Only the XP Deus has a form of a depth meter.

BamaJoe,

You might want to check out a late model White's 5900 Di Pro SL "CB", it has a very deep ground balanced all-metal mode. The 5900 CB is one of the last of White's true analog machines with a needle type meter that displays target ID and when used in all metal it gives depth readings. The CB designation is the latest and most up to date circuit board on the 5900. These detectors are out of production but can be found on the classifieds on the various detecting forums, they operate at 6.59kHz and are said to have superior depth in mineralized ground. I would not know because of my mild ground, but mine goes deep in the motion disc. mode. I found a 1936 10kt gold class ring with it at 8 inches deep with an 8" coil, the area that I found it in had been gone over in a club hunt just a week before. The class ring rung up on the meter as a pulltab and had a fairly strong signal, then when I put it in all-metal it just buried the depth meter.

I have compared it to several of my buddy's E-Tracs on deep signals and it can hang with them on depth, but this is in the milder Kansas dirt. Every function on this detector is controled by knobs with one trigger switch to change modes with. It is a little intimidating when looking at all the knobs on this detector, it is simple to set up once you have learned about what each knob does. I picked mine up about 7 years ago and was like new in the box for $325 shipped and no, it's not for sale. These 5900's were also sold as a relic machine named the "Blue and Grey" same machine but different meter 'face plate' geared towards relic hunting instead of coins.

Thanks Hombre, I have a coinmaster 6000/DI series 3 that I have not used. Will this work?

Well, I do not have experiece with that particular model, but have read about it some. It does have adjustable ground balance, but I do not know if it has the Signal Balance of the 5900 Di Pro SL.

Best thing to do is throw some batteries in it and try it out, my 5900 CB takes four "C" cells.

Tom, On your forum a few pages over, someone showed using a minelab GPX 5000 going behind his e-trac to find deep targets. After marking with golf Tees targets found with GPX 5000, anything that the E-trac wouldn't hit, he would dig using the inline sunray X1 pinpointer to determine co - fe #s after diging a hole. After reading a lot on your forum (by the way ,I learned more here than anywhere so thanks for all the help) it looks to me that with today technology the only way to reach the deep coins in my highly mineralized soil conditions or any coins that are past the limits of ones metal detector is to do something like this man is doing. I noticed that the GPX5000 minelabs high end detector didn't have a depth indicator, so appearently it's not easy to develope on the PI's. Also read that it had a special algorithem (pulse with)? program for coins. My question is do you or anyone else on the forum know if the minelab SD2200 or any cheaper PI unit (GPX5000= $5000) hit silver coins. I know these units are designed mostly for low conductance gold not high conductance silver. It just sounded like the GPX5000 had something extra to help with silver coins. So my questions are: 1) Is this the only way to reach those beyond the limits coins? 2) Is there a cheaper PI detector that can do the job? 3) Is there a better way something I'm missing? Thanks

Its been my experience that nothing with a meter is going to do you any good in soil of that type. It sounds similar to what I have up here; its basically a string of highly mineralized iron content soil. You can get better ground penetration via a machine with an exclusive all metal mode, but your IDs will not match what is actually in the ground. Most of the time the coins/relics will ID as iron beyond that 4-5 inch range you are talking about. That's why it takes an all metal mode to get the signal; then you just have to do a lot of digging. In some sites, it becomes very hard to do that and unfortunately, that's all that is available right now. You can choose between a VLF with a true all metal mode...or a pulse machine, in which some of those can tell you whether the object is high conductive or low conductive...with pretty accurate and deep results. They aren't perfect, but IMO in the bad soil sites, are many steps ahead of a "dig it all" VLF in all metal mode.

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its been my experience that nothing with a meter
> is going to do you any good in soil of that type.
> It sounds similar to what I have up here; its
> basically a string of highly mineralized iron
> content soil. You can get better ground
> penetration via a machine with an exclusive all
> metal mode, but your IDs will not match what is
> actually in the ground. Most of the time the
> coins/relics will ID as iron beyond that 4-5 inch
> range you are talking about. That's why it takes
> an all metal mode to get the signal; then you just
> have to do a lot of digging. In some sites, it
> becomes very hard to do that and unfortunately,
> that's all that is available right now. You can
> choose between a VLF with a true all metal
> mode...or a pulse machine, in which some of those
> can tell you whether the object is high conductive
> or low conductive...with pretty accurate and deep
> results. They aren't perfect, but IMO in the bad
> soil sites, are many steps ahead of a "dig it all"
> VLF in all metal mode.

Daniel, Thanks for the input. I'am leaning towards a PI detector just don't know which one yet. I wish there was something coming out that combined VLF and PI. Maybe oneday. Thanks again

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its been my experience that nothing with a meter
> is going to do you any good in soil of that type.
> It sounds similar to what I have up here; its
> basically a string of highly mineralized iron
> content soil. You can get better ground
> penetration via a machine with an exclusive all
> metal mode, but your IDs will not match what is
> actually in the ground. Most of the time the
> coins/relics will ID as iron beyond that 4-5 inch
> range you are talking about. That's why it takes
> an all metal mode to get the signal; then you just
> have to do a lot of digging. In some sites, it
> becomes very hard to do that and unfortunately,
> that's all that is available right now. You can
> choose between a VLF with a true all metal
> mode...or a pulse machine, in which some of those
> can tell you whether the object is high conductive
> or low conductive...with pretty accurate and deep
> results. They aren't perfect, but IMO in the bad
> soil sites, are many steps ahead of a "dig it all"
> VLF in all metal mode.

VERY interesting discussion!-----Daniel---where you said "a pulse machine, in which some of those can tell you whether the object is high conductive or low conductive"-----can you (or anyone) name excellent PI machines that has this capability?-----I absolutely agree with you--that would put us many steps ahead in these bad (terrible) soil sites we are discussing here.

Hey Daniel Tn
What about the Blisstool ?
Thought you had some success with the Blisstool in difficult soil .
Just curious.
Thanks. TT

Im not good at finding prior posted info, but look up the post on TDI by guys like Steve H.and Reg. Both have succesfully used it for deep coins. Steve post here often,but is probably busy with his new forum, detectorprospector.com. Try his site and ask about a TDI in your scenerio.

Without a current-day change in mindset/paradigm shift...... cracking the 'accurate ID quest' in highly mineralized ground,,,,,,, still remains a unsuspecting/hidden secret in regards to modern electronics. In general..... a reasonably good quality PI unit..... such as the Minelab's (SD or GPX series)....... will achieve good depths in bad ground; yet, without any ID capabilities. Simply all-metal mode. A 40-year seasoned detectorist may glean 'some' ID abilities (with some success).... using a (all-metal) PI unit.
Highly mineralized ground still remains a locked door.

D&P-OR Wrote:

> VERY interesting discussion!-----Daniel---where
> you said "a pulse machine, in which some of those
> can tell you whether the object is high conductive
> or low conductive"-----can you (or anyone) name
> excellent PI machines that has this
> capability?-----I absolutely agree with you--that
> would put us many steps ahead in these bad
> (terrible) soil sites we are discussing here.


Yes I can, as I have used just about all of them, minus the new ATX. The TDI is one that would fit that spot. I don't remember where the transition point was between the low conductors and high conductors. If it were a low conductor like a nickel....it would give a high tone. If it were a high conductor like a dime/quarter...it would give a low tone. Basically if you were coin hunting for silver, you could put the machine's toggle switch in HIGH conductor mode...and it wouldn't even register a sound on anything low conductive. That audio channel would be completely silenced. Its not really discrimination like how a VLF does it...but in a way it has the same effect without depth loss. A TDI with stock coil would get you down to about 11-12 inches on coin sized objects in any soil type. That particular machine seems more sensitive to low conductors though....in relic hunting we always found more buttons and stuff like that with it...just because it has a love for them. But with the right settings, you can tweak on the pulse delay a bit and bump it up. You will lose some depth; but if you put it in HIGH conductor mode, it makes a killer copper and silver coin getter. It will still go deep...especially in these soil types...and you will only hear the high conductor sounds from say, above pull tab on up.

Of course there has to be a catch. And on the TDI this catch is...for some reason, nails will sound off as a high conductor. Some times you can really tell a nail signal due to a double blip if you hit it just right. I would always go 90 degrees to the target until I eventually circled all around it. Once I had pinpointed the target's center...I would begin walking in a circle around it. If the target never changed positions and never double blipped...it was almost certainly NOT a nail. If however, it was center here...and by moving 90 degrees, the center spot changed locations too...it is probably a nail...particularly a bent one.

The other machine is the Minelab GPX series. For coin and relic hunting, you don't need the GPX 5000....because from the 4000 on up, they will have nothing in them to benefit you with the cost...other than if you absolutely want a brand new machine for warranty purposes. You can get a used GPX 4000 or 4500 for the same price as what a new CTX 3030 costs, and have a machine 200x better in this kind of bad soil. These machines are capable of going over the 13 inch mark on coin sized objects with the stock 11" DD coil. I had mine only for a little while and even with a 6x10 DD coil and on the lowest gain setting the machine has, I could pick a silver dime at 9 inches up with EASE in some very hot soil. They can also "discriminate" iron to a degree. Actually they just break the signal up. The closer the iron is to the coil, the more effective it is and the more it breaks the tone up. The opposite goes for when it gets further away from the coil...the tone break up gets less but in no time at all, you can tell the difference between a good deep non iron target and one that is iron. The iron break up is most effective from about 6 inches to surface...but does continue to work down to about 11-12 inches or so...you just gotta have the ear for listening to the tone break up. For high conductive targets, you can set the audio to your preference...of one of three ways. You can have it where high conductors will give a low tone followed by a fast high tone...and low conductors give a high tone then follow by a fast low tone. Or you can reverse this...have it the other way around...or you can have it give one beep style on EVERYTHING. I personally wish there was a feature to set it like the TDI....to hear high conductors only or low conductors only...or hear both. That, combined with the iron discrimination thing would be awesome. If I were detecting more and most of my sites were in these bad soil type locations...I would have one and not think twice about it. But whereas I'm just hunting maybe once or twice a month now, it just doesn't benefit me to have one.

-------------------------

Someone asked about the Blisstool. Yes I did have one and used it pretty successfully...to a degree. It still holds the title as deepest VLF I've ever ran. But it did have its flaws too. I think part of the reason it could go so deep, is that the user could manipulate the iron audio a bit...meaning you could make those coins/relics that were deep and reading as iron...to read more like they were non iron. So by simply adjusting it a little, you could then hear those targets with a good solid beep. While you were doing this....you also made deep iron to read more like non iron...and so you ended up digging a lot of deep iron that sounded like good targets. That was the big trade off with the Blisstool. Yes it did go deep...and did work great to a degree in the shallower and larger iron. But those pieces of fence wire, bent nails, nail heads, etc...would sound just like a good deep target and let me tell ya...it gets old FAST digging 10+ inch holes to find a bent square nail in the side wall of your hole.

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im not good at finding prior posted info, but look
> up the post on TDI by guys like Steve H.and Reg.
> Both have succesfully used it for deep coins.
> Steve post here often,but is probably busy with
> his new forum, detectorprospector.com. Try his
> site and ask about a TDI in your scenerio.

Thanks deathray, I went back and found the post you were referring to. Very interesting, read behind Steve H. on several sites and found a lot on the TDI. thanks for putting me on this,I had never heard of a Whites TDI. I may buy a used one if can find. Thanks again

Daniel, on the previous post you said "A TDI with stock coil would get you down to about 11-12 inches on coin sized objects in any soil type." My CTX3030 gets a dime at 4" in worst soil about 7" in best soil. Do you think that I can add about 3-4" better than the Ctx in this bad soil? Thanks

Joe ..I know P.I.s sound intrguing and such but please remember they do not have a Disc circuit...

and they are best used in areas away from trash...

they work well for Prospectors in the open and for relic hunting in the open areas...but in areas were most coins are to be encountered they are less capable...

Theres tricks to learn with them and theres even 2 now that have a bit of surface iron I.D. like the Garrett ATX and the Minelab 5000...yet its very limited...

on the TDi there si a way to trick the machine in to not hearing low conductors thought he ground bal and tone option...but the depth will drop off and to be honest its still alearned trait...

the thing to remember is whatever you know about VLFs do not apply to a P.I.

At times things even seem backwards ..

P.i.s require a mindset and attitude and Site selection to benefit and to get the best yields...

But other than that if you are the type to learn new methods and if you are used to using the machines you have in an all metal type hunt with threshold an no I.D. and such you very well may put a P.I. to good use...

Keith

hey Joe,check treasureclassifieds.com...there was a TDI on there recently...very reasonable price. I got mine with 3coils for $700. But I have only used it for nuggets.

Don't let Keith's post intimidate you about the pulse machines. People tried to do me the same way and talked me out of it for a long time and then when I finally got one, I didn't find it to be any different of a learning curve than with any other machines. It's pretty straight forward actually...you find a spot to ground balance the machine in...on the TDI you just slowly pump the coil up and down and move the GB knob until the machine doesn't make a sound. If out of balance too far one way, it will give a low tone every time you approach the ground while bobbing the coil. If out of balance the other way, it will give a high tone. You find the spot right between them where it doesn't give any sound when you pump the coil...and you are balanced and off hunting. On the GPX you just hold down the button on top of the handle and pump the coil up and down and it does the balancing for you. Then you just dig the tones that you want to dig. I think the talk about a pulse machine being horrible in a trashy site got started out of speculation more so than people actually using them. The vast majority of people using them are gold prospecting. They really didn't start catching on for relic/coin hunters until a few yrs ago, and since then, more people are taking them into places that are considered "trashy" and finding out HEY...this ain't so bad afterall.

If you are getting 4 inches in the bad soil with the CTX...the TDI is going to go 11-12 inches in the bad soil and the good soil. I've had the TDI in GA, TN, NC, AL, and Northern VA. In some really bad soil...and the pulse machines shine through every time. Actually in Culpeper, VA...the guys with the CTX, eTrac, and Explorers couldn't even get signals on bullets laying in the dirt piles or dirt clods of other diggers. The dirt is that bad up there....and the pulse machines would be all around them digging bullets/buttons/belt plates, etc. Some of these places were hut sites and trash pits...full of trash, etc. Sometimes it does get a little busy but if you take your time and slow down you can cherry pick the goodies from that stuff.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe ..I know P.I.s sound intrguing and such but
> please remember they do not have a Disc
> circuit...
>
> and they are best used in areas away from
> trash...
>
> they work well for Prospectors in the open and for
> relic hunting in the open areas...but in areas
> were most coins are to be encountered they are
> less capable...
>
> Theres tricks to learn with them and theres even 2
> now that have a bit of surface iron I.D. like the
> Garrett ATX and the Minelab 5000...yet its very
> limited...
>
> on the TDi there si a way to trick the machine in
> to not hearing low conductors thought he ground
> bal and tone option...but the depth will drop off
> and to be honest its still alearned trait...
>
> the thing to remember is whatever you know about
> VLFs do not apply to a P.I.
>
> At times things even seem backwards ..
>
> P.i.s require a mindset and attitude and Site
> selection to benefit and to get the best
> yields...
>
> But other than that if you are the type to learn
> new methods and if you are used to using the
> machines you have in an all metal type hunt with
> threshold an no I.D. and such you very well may
> put a P.I. to good use...
>
> Keith

Thanks Keith, been reading behind you, feel for you when reading about your dad. Lost mine in 1965 while Sr. in high school. Hope your daughter is well. I already knew enough to know the PI route is difficult, especially in trash but I have a few places that other than bad soil are somewhat clean. I believe it is a good beach detector. I'll probably buy a used one to try then either keep for the beach or sell if it don't help me on coins. Either way I probably will buy a new PI soon. My daughter & son in law live in Savannah,Ga. How far from you? Is the beaches there good to detect? Son in law scuba dives I don't care to get my head wet but would like checking the beaches. Here in central Alabam I'm too far from the water but love coin shooting.

Daniel, Since last night I've read the instruction manuals on the TDI,TDI PRO, and the TDI SL. Other than weight and maybe fine GB adjust there's not much difference between the three that I can see. Steve H. said the original TDI was deeper than the TDI SL. After reading the manuals and your experience it looks to me that you can disc. targets at least as good as some VLF's. Can you make head from tails in the trashy parks with the smallest coil? Anyway there is one on the bay going off sunday and a TDL pro next week. I'll have one soon. Thanks again

Daniel, I forgot to ask, somewhere I read something that sounded like there was an in line switchable pin pointer for the TDI. (Switch one way to here detector coil audio thru the detector switch the other way to here the pin pointer thru the detector) . I have a sunray in line on my E-trac and it give the same sounds while pin pointing that you here on the detector. Do you have one or are you familiar? Thanks

does NOT disc like vlf Joe! does pinpoint well.

Hi

Busy gearing up for two weeks in Hawaii with the ATX so just saw the thread.

One of those rare times I have to disagree with Tom. There is a huge difference between a VLF in all metal mode and a Ground Balancing PI when it comes to discrimination. All targets break into two distinct groups with a GBPI that are clearly indicated with tones. One group of targets is on one side of the ground balance point, and the other group of targets on the other side of the ground balance point. This roughly coincides with low conductive targets and high conductive targets. Iron can read on either side, just like some iron targets read like coins on a VLF. This difference in tones and target breakdown extends to full operational GBPI depth.

IT IS NOT VLF discrimination but it is discrimination and puts the operator way ahead of using all metal VLF where you do indeed dig it all. I can chose one tone option and dig high conductive coins plus large ferrous junk but pass on the vast majority of low conductive trash items. Or go low conductive only. Going to dig more trash that way but effective for bullets, buttons etc.

This use of GBPI detectors is getting to be the norm with relic hunters in highly mineralized areas. This thread is enlightening [www.mytreasurespot.com]

I am having success with coins myself. However, I am very, very hesitant to recommend that people go to PIs for hunting coins as no matter how much I try to explain it takes a different mindset people have a hard time getting what it is all about. Some people like Daniel take to it like ducks to water. Most do not. Keith's warning should not be ignored. But for people that "get it" a GBPI can break down barriers and make finds no VLF can touch. I love the power and the challenge of using the new PI detectors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2014 04:48AM by Steve Herschbach.

Good luck in Hawaii Steve,and notice I did not try to spell your last name,ha

BamaJoe -- I have used all 3 of the TDI models. The only one I wasn't fond of, was the SL. The battery life was terrible on it, and my findings for it was that even though it was lighter weight, the original TDI and TDI Pro were much better overall. If you decided to keep one, you can get a carbon fiber straight shaft for it, and make it a lot lighter...but overall, the TDI and Pro are not that un balanced anyway. Even though the SL wasn't as deep IMO as the TDI, it would STILL be deeper than your VLF in the bad soil.

The ATX might be another one to look as an inbetween unit from a TDI to a GPX...but I've never used one so I can't tell you anything about it.

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi
>
> Busy gearing up for two weeks in Hawaii with the
> ATX so just saw the thread.
>
> One of those rare times I have to disagree with
> Tom. There is a huge difference between a VLF in
> all metal mode and a Ground Balancing PI when it
> comes to discrimination. All targets break into
> two distinct groups with a GBPI that are clearly
> indicated with tones. One group of targets is on
> one side of the ground balance point, and the
> other group of targets on the other side of the
> ground balance point. This roughly coincides with
> low conductive targets and high conductive
> targets. Iron can read on either side, just like
> some iron targets read like coins on a VLF. This
> difference in tones and target breakdown extends
> to full operational GBPI depth.
>
> IT IS NOT VLF discrimination but it is
> discrimination and puts the operator way ahead of
> using all metal VLF where you do indeed dig it
> all. I can chose one tone option and dig high
> conductive coins plus large ferrous junk but pass
> on the vast majority of low conductive trash
> items. Or go low conductive only. Going to dig
> more trash that way but effective for bullets,
> buttons etc.
>
> This use of GBPI detectors is getting to be the
> norm with relic hunters in highly mineralized
> areas. This thread is enlightening
> [www.mytreasurespot.com]
> 762,578762#msg-578762
>
> I am having success with coins myself. However, I
> am very, very hesitant to recommend that people go
> to PIs for hunting coins as no matter how much I
> try to explain it takes a different mindset people
> have a hard time getting what it is all about.
> Some people like Daniel take to it like ducks to
> water. Most do not. Keith's warning should not be
> ignored. But for people that "get it" a GBPI can
> break down barriers and make finds no VLF can
> touch. I love the power and the challenge of using
> the new PI detectors.

Steve, Great to here from you. I have read probably all you write ups on the TDI. Very well written and informative. Wise I could put thoughts into words as good. Anyway I've seen video of the TDI being used on the beach. In that environment it looked great to me. I don't have a beach close so parks, old schools, and old home places it may sound like a popcorn machine. It may sound like you here everything everywhere. Realistically I know there will be some of that in an all metal PI machine but with high low conductivity switch to eliminate one side of the sounds I think I should be able to handle that. Also using the GB control to discriminate along with raising and lowering the coil to help eliminate iron and trash, Its looks to have an advantage over other PI's both with the audio and discrimination techniques. Anyway I'm planning on trying one soon. Thanks for all you do

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BamaJoe -- I have used all 3 of the TDI models.
> The only one I wasn't fond of, was the SL. The
> battery life was terrible on it, and my findings
> for it was that even though it was lighter weight,
> the original TDI and TDI Pro were much better
> overall. If you decided to keep one, you can get
> a carbon fiber straight shaft for it, and make it
> a lot lighter...but overall, the TDI and Pro are
> not that un balanced anyway. Even though the SL
> wasn't as deep IMO as the TDI, it would STILL be
> deeper than your VLF in the bad soil.
>
> The ATX might be another one to look as an
> inbetween unit from a TDI to a GPX...but I've
> never used one so I can't tell you anything about
> it.

Thanks Daniel, Will scratch the SL from my list.

deathray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> does NOT disc like vlf Joe! does pinpoint well.


After reading up on the in line coiltec PP I realized that it would not work. Probably will use my detectorpro PI pinpointer.