Gold coin hoard

Just came across this interesting article, suggesting the coins may be stolen:
[www.ibtimes.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2014 12:10PM by Pimento.

From one of the referenced articles:

Through an exclusive arrangement with online retailer, Amazon.com, approximately 90 percent of the coins will be available for purchase at a later date via Amazon's collectibles store (www.amazon.com/collectibles). This will be the first major numismatic treasure to be sold through Amazon.

Whoda thought?

Why does every one seem to thing that they disclosed the entire hoard? They could have kept 90% buried under the "wood pile".

These guys are baffling....

the tax man strikes the finders

[www.sfgate.com]

I used to enjoy reading H. Glenn Carson's columns in W&E about searching for buried treasure.

If you had any thoughts of talking about, sharing the excitement, showing off, or whatever you want to call it after making a huge find, he could really talk you out of it.

As much 'public eye' as this story is receiving......... When/If the government were to 'tax' this hoard, , , this too...would become 'spotlight news'..... and the subsequent self-defeating repercussion would ensue; That being: no one (from this point forward) would ever admit to finding a cache/hoard ever again.

Tom, the tax situation is well described two posts up.

I don't believe a hoard this large can be practically hidden from the tax man; it's just too large.

One quarter the size? Maybe...

How about just slabbing one at time?

funny,just had that argument with my wife last night...I could hide it!

the worlds a big place of many auction houses where a few at a time could be sold should they take that route

Much would depend on the financial situation of the seller.
If you were in a position of already having substantial wealth and amounts of this magnitiude were not uncommon transactions , it's possible you could camouflage some of the proceeds. However , if you are among the 98% without that type of financial infrastructure , you would be putting yourself at great risk trying to bring these types of amounts to inconspicuos use without losing it all.
How you gonna sell a "finest known" no motto gold coin without attracting attention? For a third of it's value to a private individual? Good , try to convert the check for $300,000 into cash or deposit it. If you got cash to start , try to spend that as cash and see how far you get. All deposits of cash that size , as well as withdrawals , produce IRS paper work by the banks , so whoever you buy something from with the cash will be reporting you as the source when they deposit it.
The best you could do is to "hide in plain site" by bringing forth a portion of the find and paying the piper and then enjoying the stuff you kept your mouth shut about. After all , on the "grey market" you're only going to get half the real value anyway--just ask Rick Harrison
Use the money from the legal stuff to wash the hidden.

I would like the oppurtunity to try!!

I am ashamed at you guys, trying to cheat the government out of its just share. Instead donate it to my church and I will pray for you from the (nonextraditing ) mission field!
Just kidding, but I would pray for you anyway! If you get caught doing something bad enough try to get sent to Lompoc Federal Prison its only 20 minutes away, I can visit you.

Past(or)Tom
Using a Legend, a Deus 2, an Equinox 800, a Tarsacci MDT 8000, & a few others...
with my beloved, fading Corgi, Sadie

Hi Yom,I am by no means religous, BUT I trust you to use our money wisely more thanour government! BTW, there is a church near me that has alot of history on their property. What do you recomend as a good aproach to get access?? Hey,if your near Calaveras county, maybe you can hit it up with me! Ray

Of course the government is going to tax the hoard. It falls under one of its three main functions:

1. Confiscate our income.

2. Spend more than they confiscate.

3. Make war.

You only truly own what cannot be taken from you without due process of law. And folks, that isn't much.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As much 'public eye' as this story is
> receiving......... When/If the government were to
> 'tax' this hoard, , , this too...would become
> 'spotlight news'..... and the subsequent
> self-defeating repercussion would ensue; That
> being: no one (from this point forward) would ever
> admit to finding a cache/hoard ever again.

Tom, I think you are underestimating the psychological reasons why many treasure finders feel compelled to show off their "big find"...regardless of taxes or other negative repercussions,

Marcomo wrote: "Tom, I think you are underestimating the psychological reasons why many treasure finders feel compelled to show off their "big find"...regardless of taxes or other negative repercussions,"

You mean like stupidity? ; )

leggo my ego

shoveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Much would depend on the financial situation of
> the seller.
> If you were in a position of already having
> substantial wealth and amounts of this magnitiude
> were not uncommon transactions , it's possible you
> could camouflage some of the proceeds. However ,
> if you are among the 98% without that type of
> financial infrastructure , you would be putting
> yourself at great risk trying to bring these types
> of amounts to inconspicuos use without losing it
> all.
> How you gonna sell a "finest known" no motto gold
> coin without attracting attention? For a third of
> it's value to a private individual? Good , try to
> convert the check for $300,000 into cash or
> deposit it. If you got cash to start , try to
> spend that as cash and see how far you get. All
> deposits of cash that size , as well as
> withdrawals , produce IRS paper work by the banks
> , so whoever you buy something from with the cash
> will be reporting you as the source when they
> deposit it.
> The best you could do is to "hide in plain site"
> by bringing forth a portion of the find and paying
> the piper and then enjoying the stuff you kept
> your mouth shut about. After all , on the "grey
> market" you're only going to get half the real
> value anyway--just ask Rick Harrison
> Use the money from the legal stuff to wash the
> hidden.

Exactly

there's no way to get out of being under the microscope when you sell one of the coins or some or whatever

any transaction at $5000 and above is reported to the IRS be it sale of items/goods or deposits at banks, etc. --- even if you "trade" a piece of the gold for something (like a car, etc.) it is still subject to being reported.

The only way it would work is if every single coin were valued under $5000 and you sold one here & there for CASH and you never put any of the $$ in the bank nor go around spending large sums of $$ on anything that is subjected to being reported!

You can't just sell a bunch of them and then go buy a new house or land or a new Lexus or whatever and think the IRS isn't going to find you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2014 06:17AM by MichiganRelicHunter.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you read the article Keith posted......
> half-way down.... it states:
>
> """ Because paper money was illegal in California
> until the 1870s, he added, it's extremely rare to
> find any coins from before that of such high
> quality.
>
> "It wasn't really until the 1880s that you start
> seeing coins struck in California that were kept
> in real high grades of preservation," he said.
> """
>
> What does the (above) quote mean to us
> detectorists???!!!!!!
>
> steveg ??? And steveg.....can you post exactly
> this in our on-going gold coin thread!!!?

NASA-Tom -- I missed this post by you, from a few days ago. Yes, this has massive implications for detectorists, and I think is a part of the reason why so many gold coins that have been reported as being found, have been from California. Obviously, given the large numbers of gold coins MINTED at San Fransisco, and the FEW specimens in "high grades of preservation," combined with illegality of paper money, the obvious conclusion is that many gold coins were CIRCULATED HEAVILY, and thus LOST frequently. With our country undergoing its most MAJOR financial crisis up to that point in 1873, and with paper money becoming legal in California in the 1870s, it would seem that between 1848-9, and the early 1870s, SUBSTANTIAL numbers of gold coins were lost in the CA area...

In reading Bowers' book, it's AMAZING to me how gold coins were NOT treated with anywhere near the "reverence" that we today treat them with. Not ONLY were several SUPREMELY rare specimens sold by/to collectors in the 1800s and early 1900s for VERY meager amounts, but even well into the early 20th century, specific mint marks were of virtually ZERO importance to collectors. If you had an "1860" gold dollar, for instance (from WHATEVER mint), your gold dollar collection was viewed as COMPLETE for the 1860 year! There simply was not much demand from collectors for U.S. gold for a LONG time...and furthermore it is -- in my mind -- a TRAVESTY to have learned how much old (and rare) U.S. gold coinage was MELTED by the U.S. Mint, simply to be used for new coinage...

Amazing stuff can be learned through Bowers' book, and -- as NASA-Tom has said several times -- some of which has strong implications for detectorists...

Steve

steveg Wrote:
There
> simply was not much demand from collectors for
> U.S. gold for a LONG time...and furthermore it is
> -- in my mind -- a TRAVESTY to have learned how
> much old (and rare) U.S. gold coinage was MELTED
> by the U.S. Mint, simply to be used for new
> coinage...
>

>
> Steve


Not to mention those confiscated by the Roosevelt administration.

Ugh...good point, smudge...

Steve

Here in the UK, our gold coins in the 1800's / early 1900's were routinely withdrawn from circulation and re-melted if they became underweight through wear. And there wasn't much wear needed, it was only 0.6% drop from 'new spec'. Did such practice take place in the US?
And a gold coin was just another coin. We had a 5 pound coin, about 40 grams of 22 carat (0.916 fine) and today it looks like something you wouldn't even consider carrying with you. But they come up on eBay quite routinely, (and I've seen one in the flesh), usually with edge-dings, thousands of clink-marks from bashing into other coins in bags / purses etc, just used like any other coin.
Looks like a lot of them that went to the States were melted, too. Here's some info:
[en.wikipedia.org]
I wonder if the same fate befell US gold coins sent here? Or anywhere else ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2014 08:57PM by Pimento.

For those that say you cant hide the money...I think your underestimating the lengths a serious collector will go to buy THE example of a coin. I bet Go-Rebels may back my not so informed oponion. I do know that collectors of natures gold will pay big bucks for the right piece...I have a friend who found a very unique specimen gold,and the prices he was offered was amazing.

Collecting gold coins...... 100 or 150 years ago........ would be akin to: not cashing your modern paycheck(s).... only to 'save' or 'collect' them. One gold coin may be a one week.... or a one month paycheck.
But.......... yes........... gold coins were not 'cherished' to the order-of-magnitude (back then) .... as you would expect. It was just another coin. (Just a higher denomination). BUT......... once again........... this would be analogous to a $100 bill in your wallet today. Yes....... you will treat it with a bit more 'protection' and mindful-watching (because it is a higher denomination); yet, you will crumple it up....and shove it in your wallet with all the other $1, $5 bills.......... and never think twice about it. In 20 years from now............ when paper money no longer exists............. folks will be saying: "Wow! You could hold a $100 bill in your hand???!!! WOW!!!!" ""How come you did not collect thousands of $100 bills when they were in free circulation?"" """ Why didn't you treat them with such sacredness of extreme order??? """ """Didn't you realize how 'rare' and 'valuable' and 'collectable' they would become??""" How come you didn't save all of them? Were you stupid? What were you thinking!?!?

It still interests me to no end.... to this day........... when you dig up a low mintage rare coin. You may dig up a 1916 'D' Mercury dime that is G-4 worn out. This is to say..... no one cared enough to 'collect' it.... and pull it from circulation. You may dig up a gold coin with a date/mint mark..... that only a few thousand were produced. It might be beat, damaged, worn..... because no one 'collected' them..... and could care less about low mintage. Hence/subsequently; it/they "circulated".

Bottom line: Major attribute for us detectorists.

LoL @ Tom

I certainly wish I could save all my $100 bills like I have no need other than to just "save them" so that 20 yrs from now I can sell them to collectors for BIG $$!!

Hell - we could all get rich if that were the case!

It's no different than the $500 and $1000 bills of yester year if you think about it.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Collecting gold coins...... 100 or 150 years
> ago........ would be akin to: not cashing your
> modern paycheck(s).... only to 'save' or 'collect'
> them. One gold coin may be a one week.... or a one
> month paycheck.
> But.......... yes........... gold coins were not
> 'cherished' to the order-of-magnitude (back then)
> .... as you would expect. It was just another
> coin. (Just a higher denomination). BUT.........
> once again........... this would be analogous to a
> $100 bill in your wallet today. Yes....... you
> will treat it with a bit more 'protection' and
> mindful-watching (because it is a higher
> denomination); yet, you will crumple it up....and
> shove it in your wallet with all the other $1, $5
> bills.......... and never think twice about it. In
> 20 years from now............ when paper money no
> longer exists............. folks will be saying:
> "Wow! You could hold a $100 bill in your
> hand???!!! WOW!!!!" ""How come you did not
> collect thousands of $100 bills when they were in
> free circulation?"" """ Why didn't you treat them
> with such sacredness of extreme order??? """
> """Didn't you realize how 'rare' and 'valuable'
> and 'collectable' they would become??""" How come
> you didn't save all of them? Were you stupid? What
> were you thinking!?!?
>
> It still interests me to no end.... to this
> day........... when you dig up a low mintage rare
> coin. You may dig up a 1916 'D' Mercury dime that
> is G-4 worn out. This is to say..... no one cared
> enough to 'collect' it.... and pull it from
> circulation. You may dig up a gold coin with a
> date/mint mark..... that only a few thousand were
> produced. It might be beat, damaged, worn.....
> because no one 'collected' them..... and could
> care less about low mintage. Hence/subsequently;
> it/they "circulated".
>
> Bottom line: Major attribute for us detectorists.

Correct When I started detecting,( 1961) all of the coins I dug were silver ( except pennys ) and I spent them not knowing one day thy would worth 20 or more times facevalue. Even well into the 70s it was common to get silver in change. Isn't hindsight great?

It was just money lying around...after you trade it for paper money its still just money lying around....LOL!!


Just sell them slowly...take your time ...

Keith

Today's clad coins may be next on the list.
((( ...... copper pennies are still heavy in circulation..... and they are worth about 2.3-cents a piece right now. That's a 230% profit. Hmmmmmm )))