Hey Steve I did a Bic pen test on the F75 (VIDEO) UPDATE F19 Bic pen (VIDEO) UPDATE FORS CoRe Bic Pen (VIDEO)

not sure if this is what your looking for or not ..if not let me know...

Ill get to the F19 on Sunday..Ill add it to this post..

[www.youtube.com]

Keith

F19

[www.youtube.com]

FORS CoRe

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 09:20PM by Keith Southern.

Wow, was not expecting video! Your unit is doing better than mine, which is an April 2013 7.0A version. Solid ferrous tones on that same small target with 5" round DD and small elliptical concentric. I will see about doing my own video but will be a day or two. Thanks and Merry Christmas!

Hi Steve,,,,,I tested my AT and it faintly catches the Bic out just a couple of inches...That's a super small piece of brass in them pens....JJ

Depth record is Gold Bug 2 with small coil jacked to max with small coil in all metal - bare buzz at four inches. Most mid-frequency units can do a couple inches, and in my case I am worried about the inability of this particular F75 to id the target as non-ferrous. Problem with my unit or inherent in 7.0? Getting hard to tell these days. My use of the prototype and Keith's video indicate the new models may be improved in that regard but need to see it with the small coils.

Most low frequency (under 10 kHz and the multi freq units) detectors simply cannot detect the little brass and tungsten carbide tip. Any VLF detector that can't get a couple inches on that I generally would not consider capable as a gold nugget detector.

Well had to give it a try using the new Nel Sharpshooter.

using 3 tone and 3 H
0 disc.
90 t0 99 sens.
DE and JE
Mostly a solid mid tone to 2 inches with a medium sweep speed.

Using bp 2 --2 1/2 inches good mid tone

What I liked also is the mid tone carried out the entire length of the coil from tip to heel with a medium sweep speed. If you sped the sweep speed up to much you start getting some iron grunts mixed in.

Heres the F19 in action on the bic pen and some more info..

[www.youtube.com]

Keith

Hi Keith,

Thank you. Highlights the F19 superiority on small non-ferrous targets for sure.

I believe it does show its stength easily...

your quite welcome!

Keith

How does the F75 do on the pen in je mode? Doesn't that mode make it more sensative to small jewerly? I havent tried that mode alot myself but was curious.

Heres the FORS CoRe on the pen

[www.youtube.com]

I still am amazed that the CoRe can hit such small targets when comparing to other VLF's...dos nto seem possible on 15Khz...But it it was it is...

I think its hotter than the F19..

I used to think the DEUS was the best bet for a gold coin not so sure anymore..

Keith

The FORS units are formidable detectors. Everything is a trade off and that extreme sensitivity may work against it in some ground. No magic bullets I am afraid. All I know is the FORS units rank with the best of the best VLF detectors for extracting low conductors from the ground and that is good enough for me to continue working with mine.

Its funny. I have a Garrett ATX and I almost never let a chance get by to complain about Garrett sticking a great detector in a seven pound box. Yet I love the machine. I describe it as the beautiful girl trapped in the fat girl body (no offense fat girls!). The FORS is like that. I am really not fond of the housing layout and design. Yeah, it works, just like my ATX works, but it is just not what it could be. The thing is, the detector just detects really well, and the key for me is, with minimal adjusting, tweaking, etc.

My SDC 2300 I turn it on, ground balance, and detect. I may adjust the gain. That's it. That is really how I prefer to detect. The FORS comes very close to that so I am liking it. However, I am not even remotely trying to convince anyone that it is great or they need one or anything like that. It is just something that is working well for me in my ground on my targets, and most importantly it fits my style.

At least I have hope of getting the FORS body changed! My nonstop lobbying of Garrett so far is falling on deaf ears.

Thanks Keith, above and beyond as usual!!

Quite welcome Steve...

And I like to have a video log of machines abilities.....have tons of test on my jump drive....need to sort through ti opne day and catagorize it somehwat...

Your Bic pen test has given me a new target to test ...and its good since anyone can grab a Bic pen...I like to use things everyone has...Confederate buttons and gold coins and such arent lying in everyones drawers...

I would like to find a substitute for a U.S.1 dollar gold coin....Ive been looking cant find anything close that everyone might have..

yes the FORS loves small stuff ...and that can casue some issues in some dirts for depth on coin sized objects and larger.....

Luckily they have kept the freq at 15,, if it was up around 20 and hitting the tiny stuff Im afraid the depth would be poor..

Keith

AND the bic pen test is an Air Test-----interesting.

It is revealing in what a detector can't do. Give it a go on a CTX 3030 for instance. No signal.

Air tests work better on tiny targets, especially with small coils. You are eliminating most potential ground effect because you do not expect to pick the item up more than an inch or two anyway. The idea is not to find out if it can be detected deep but detected at all.

This all kind of got out of control anyway. My F75 was calling that small non-ferrous item ferrous in my test and I wanted Keith to see if his F75 also read it ferrous. None of my other detectors do. Then Keith decided to toss the F19 and FORS into the mix.

But yes, take it all not with a grain but a boulder of salt.

I will tell you what is frustrating. I just got my F19 today. It is rigged with a 5" round DD coil sitting next to the F75 with 5" round DD coil next to FORS Gold with 5" oblong coil. We got a short cold snap here and precisely because I do not put much store in air tests I am chomping at the bit for it to warm up so I can go field test on found targets. That is the only test I put any serious value in. It is the test that decides what detector I am going to keep using or not. The rest is just data points.

when you did the F75 test did you try monotone?
I got curious after watching your vid so did a bit of testing myself. If I remember right, you used 2F tones. (my apologies if I'm mistaken)
Now, I do not have my LTD to test as its currently residing at FT, but I DO have my original F75 sitting on the shelf collecting dust.
In JE mode, 99 sens and 0 disc, it got the pen so so in 2F. When I switched to monotone, and used the disc for the tone beak instead of letting 2F do it for me, it made a world of difference. I also used the stock biaxial coil, but the 5" hit it harder. I used a small rusty nail as well to set my disc, and it still hit the bic very well. 6 is the magic number. I generally use monotone in my VERY iron riddled cellar-holes as it seems to provide much better unmasking than 2F does. (its like 2F and the disc setting are at odds sometimes) You might get fooled a tiny bit more often, but my pouch tends to be fuller at the end of the day. MUCH cleaner signals.
Anyway, I'd be curious of the LTD hits the pen in BP and monotone VS my original machine. thanks............






Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> not sure if this is what your looking for or not
> ..if not let me know...
>
> Ill get to the F19 on Sunday..Ill add it to this
> post..
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> Keith
>
> F19
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> FORS CoRe
>
> [www.youtube.com]

My F75 is detecting the ballpoint just fine. The problem is it consistently want to call it a ferrous target when all my other detectors want to call it non-ferrous. It is getting a VDI of 1 which means any amount of disc applied rejects it entirely and in tone modes it gives a ferrous tone. If I want to use zero disc or all metal it sounds off just fine but it should not be reading ferrous.

I was in the UK using my F75 for two weeks a few years ago. I was doing well and another guy in the group decided to get hold of a F75 to use. The next day he came to talk to me, truly confused. He said his buddy found a gold coin, and that when the coin was in plain site in top of the ground the F75 wanted to call it ferrous. I had no explanation to give him for this. Needless to say he was done with the F75.

My last F75 I was in Alaska nuggets detecting a location with several machines. I wanted to try my F75 and Gold Bug Pro with various coils. I was shocked to find the F75 wanted to call my test nugget sitting on top of the ground a ferrous target. The Bug did a better job and it is one reason why I later sold that F75. The bottom line is I suspect there are F75 detectors that for whatever reason have a tough time with very low conductive non-ferrous items and call them ferrous when other detectors call them non-ferrous. This would be of obvious concern to me and is why I asked Keith to check his latest version F75. I did find and report directly that my prototype was able to magically turn ferrous targets into non-ferrous targets.

From [www.detectorprospector.com]

"One spot really summed it all up for me. I found three targets I could cover in a single wide swing that all read as ferrous in DE mode, but when I switched to FA mode all three switched to non-ferrous. FA mode is very fast with short, machine gun type reports in the audio. I was running in two tone mode, with ferrous giving low tones and non-ferrous high tones. In DE mode I could sweep and get three low tones in a row. Simply switch to FA mode and now there were three high tone reports in a row. This was an extremely dramatic result seen in person. In this case all three targets proved to be nothing more than aluminum targets, but they could just as well have been small hammered coins in the UK or small gold nuggets in Alaska."

In other words, the F75 was identifying extreme low conductors as ferrous targets but the new FA process was able to put them back into non-ferrous where they belong. I acquired this 2013 7.0A F75 partly to confirm this and provide a baseline for when I get my hands on a latest version F75. All I can say is anyone chasing extreme low conductors with the F75 needs to be aware of this.

When I did the test on the bic in either 2F or monotone, (This was on my original f75 mind you) it reported the target as non ferrous. The biggest difference was that in monotone it was a lot crisper hit. It wouldn't disc out either. In Je in monotone, I used a small rusty nail and dialed in "just" enough disc to make the nail "click" instead of a full report. The bic still sounded pretty much the same. The only diff when I put it in 2F was it wasn't quite as clear/clean. I DID have to be fairly close to the coil though.
As far as the guy in the uk goes, the only thing I can think of is that there was something under his coin in the dirt affecting the response. I haven't been across the pond in a while now, but have dug there 14 times, and have dug lots and lots of very small conductors with the F75 and various other machines. Do you happen to remember what kind of coin it was? just curious.................... odd for sure.





Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My F75 is detecting the ballpoint just fine. The
> problem is it consistently want to call it a
> ferrous target when all my other detectors want to
> call it non-ferrous. It is getting a VDI of 1
> which means any amount of disc applied rejects it
> entirely and in tone modes it gives a ferrous
> tone. If I want to use zero disc or all metal it
> sounds off just fine but it should not be reading
> ferrous.
>
> I was in the UK using my F75 for two weeks a few
> years ago. I was doing well and another guy in the
> group decided to get hold of a F75 to use. The
> next day he came to talk to me, truly confused. He
> said his buddy found a gold coin, and that when
> the coin was in plain site in top of the ground
> the F75 wanted to call it ferrous. I had no
> explanation to give him for this. Needless to say
> he was done with the F75.
>
> My last F75 I was in Alaska nuggets detecting a
> location with several machines. I wanted to try my
> F75 and Gold Bug Pro with various coils. I was
> shocked to find the F75 wanted to call my test
> nugget sitting on top of the ground a ferrous
> target. The Bug did a better job and it is one
> reason why I later sold that F75. The bottom line
> is I suspect there are F75 detectors that for
> whatever reason have a tough time with very low
> conductive non-ferrous items and call them ferrous
> when other detectors call them non-ferrous. This
> would be of obvious concern to me and is why I
> asked Keith to check his latest version F75. I did
> find and report directly that my prototype was
> able to magically turn ferrous targets into
> non-ferrous targets.
>
> From
> [www.detectorprospector.com]-
> fisher-f75-strikes-gold-twice-in-a-row/
>
> "One spot really summed it all up for me. I found
> three targets I could cover in a single wide swing
> that all read as ferrous in DE mode, but when I
> switched to FA mode all three switched to
> non-ferrous. FA mode is very fast with short,
> machine gun type reports in the audio. I was
> running in two tone mode, with ferrous giving low
> tones and non-ferrous high tones. In DE mode I
> could sweep and get three low tones in a row.
> Simply switch to FA mode and now there were three
> high tone reports in a row. This was an extremely
> dramatic result seen in person. In this case all
> three targets proved to be nothing more than
> aluminum targets, but they could just as well have
> been small hammered coins in the UK or small gold
> nuggets in Alaska."
>
> In other words, the F75 was identifying extreme
> low conductors as ferrous targets but the new FA
> process was able to put them back into non-ferrous
> where they belong. I acquired this 2013 7.0A F75
> partly to confirm this and provide a baseline for
> when I get my hands on a latest version F75. All I
> can say is anyone chasing extreme low conductors
> with the F75 needs to be aware of this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2015 07:13PM by Streak!.

Never saw the coin. My F75 I have in hand proves it is more than soil. It is not coils as I have tried several. I honestly just think it is what we have seen from Fisher from years now. Machines get out the door that are not spot on. This is a very tiny thing of no importance to 99% of the people out there and should be of no concern to most people as long as the error is minimal. But I would not be surprised if there are other F75s out there where the error is greater. All we are talking about is the tipping point between ferrous and non-ferrous. People coin detecting would never notice.

I also have dug a zillion small non-ferrous targets with the F75. But unless you were to also dig all those weak non-ferrous indications you have no way of knowing just how many items you passed on that were improperly identified. I sure dug a lot that read ferrous on six sweeps and non-ferrous on one so I dug it and yup, non-ferrous. I have seen that many, many times. I am not trying to pick on the F75 here and all detectors do it to some degree or other. I really did not intend on getting into it on the forums at all - I just wanted Keith to check his latest greatest and get back to me. Should have done it in a PM.

Today I had my first decent days detecting with the F19.
Venue of choice was a field with targets ranging into the 15-th century.

Set-up was V-break at 40, GB in all-metal and sens at 55.
Yes very easy going settings and digging anything that even bounces into non-ferrous.

First "problem" is I was finding shards of non ferrous into the foil range but very small indeed.
I need a pinpointer with more sensitivity than the Pro-pointer :-)
Not a real problem at all!

My friend the detector dealer who easily has about 10 years more experience than me with his XP GMP was along for the ride.

At the end of the day we compared finds, we always do that. Not one guy trying to beat the other on finds, but just looking at what these machines are capable of.
And fine tuning our skills.

We were both pleasantly surprised by the F19. I got a couple of 15-th century coins, couple of WWI bullets and various pieces of small non-ferrous trash.
The XP GMP also delivered several coins and the usual small non-ferrous trash.

Very nice indeed, and actually for this kind of detecting it should benefit from a bigger coil :-)

Next up is the graveyard field,... where minelabs just go "Null" and XP's start grunting continually.

If a machine doesn't call non-ferrous like it is,... useless,... just useless,... and maybe that's why currently several people are trying to get rid of their F75's over here.
Thanks to Steve we need to remember our BIC when looking at a second hand machine.
For coin shooters this maybe turning a flea spit into an elephant burp,... come to think of it I've never seen that before,... the elephant burp that is.

But when detecting is the main reason you get up in the morning,... it is a BIG thing. Especially if you like flea spit gold or gold coins :-)

HH
Johnb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2015 07:44PM by scoopjohnb.

Hey Streak!!

It might very well work in Mono tone maybe even in the 1n...

Yes when in 2 tone on say the DEUS or MXT and the F19 we set the tone break...So the only way to compete fairly is with single tone on the F75...

Heres something quite interesting though and it really is just some added info to throw in the mix......The CoRe and Ive also seen on the Mx5 is they do not really rely much on exact tone break to UNMASK...by this I mean the CoRe is set at 40 break yet as you can see hears the target well...it also does well in unmasking...I dare say its getting right there with the DEUS when both using larger coils..although the DEUS is going about unmasking in a diffeent way with more exact settings....and the MX5 is also doing very well without ability to adjust the break...


Now Im no engineer but the only logical thing I can see happening is filter choices of disc strengths and also the blendability of audio...and Im starting to believe in just the last year some sort of new processing has DAWNED on the engineers in the processing of co-locates targets...And the newer released designs are starting to use it....

detector companys think for the most part we the user dont require alot fo EXACTNESS in our equipment setups.....Oh sure theres those of us that WANT everything to be finetunable..but whoever decides the final product sees it as extra things for a NICHE set of users.and not cost effective and for the masses maybe even confusing..

Along comes XP ..Alain is also a hunter and Knows what it takes to unmask and punch through noisy dirts but the product is not available so he builds his machines as Niche units to fill the need....then the Deeptechs and the Golden masks and such see theres a market for Niche units and designs their version...

And to be truthful it probably is a Niche market we are....BUT somthing has happened RECENTLY and I cant say what it is but something in Audio Processing or something has allowed the disc break tone exactness to be removed and still offer the resolution audibly and intelligently to the user for unmasking and it requires no real tweaking or magic settings like before...Oh sure theres always more to be found with exact say nail disc for unmasking but at the same time the prcessing is getting so good in SORTING OUT ferrous non ferrous with a factory setting thats aggresive in my way of thinking yet still produces...


Ok I know I have gotten off track but I wanted to express what I feel and see in my field outings....

I really wanted to see F.T. offer a Tone break for just the 2f but they would not do it on their f75/T2 just said they would look into it..I know they think its overkill...but not on THAT platfrom,,, its not there (unmasking ability) using an audio report on the F75 T2 thats black and white with no gray.......on the next Platfrom maybe it will be done in processing not in exactness and the engineers will offer it...


I truly believe that detector companys are starting to get digital designs modernized....processing can do wonders.....I believe if we ever get a Discriminating P.I. it will be done with a Processor, doing alot of switching instantanously on every target to give a simple audible report..

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2015 11:05PM by Keith Southern.

thanks you Keith. fine reading




Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Streak!!
>
> It might very well work in Mono tone maybe even in
> the 1n...
>
> Yes when in 2 tone on say the DEUS or MXT and the
> F19 we set the tone break...So the only way to
> compete fairly is with single tone on the F75...
>
> Heres something quite interesting though and it
> really is just some added info to throw in the
> mix......The CoRe and Ive also seen on the Mx5 is
> they do not really rely much on exact tone break
> to UNMASK...by this I mean the CoRe is set at 40
> break yet as you can see hears the target
> well...it also does well in unmasking...I dare say
> its getting right there with the DEUS when both
> using larger coils..although the DEUS is going
> about unmasking in a diffeent way with more exact
> settings....and the MX5 is also doing very well
> without ability to adjust the break...
>
>
> Now Im no engineer but the only logical thing I
> can see happening is filter choices of disc
> strengths and also the blendability of audio...and
> Im starting to believe in just the last year some
> sort of new processing has DAWNED on the engineers
> in the processing of co-locates targets...And the
> newer released designs are starting to use it....
>
> detector companys think for the most part we the
> user dont require alot fo EXACTNESS in our
> equipment setups.....Oh sure theres those of us
> that WANT everything to be finetunable..but
> whoever decides the final product sees it as extra
> things for a NICHE set of users.and not cost
> effective and for the masses maybe even
> confusing..
>
> Along comes XP ..Alain is also a hunter and Knows
> what it takes to unmask and punch through noisy
> dirts but the product is not available so he
> builds his machines as Niche units to fill the
> need....then the Deeptechs and the Golden masks
> and such see theres a market for Niche units and
> designs their version...
>
> And to be truthful it probably is a Niche market
> we are....BUT somthing has happened RECENTLY and I
> cant say what it is but something in Audio
> Processing or something has allowed the disc break
> tone exactness to be removed and still offer the
> resolution audibly and intelligently to the user
> for unmasking and it requires no real tweaking or
> magic settings like before...Oh sure theres always
> more to be found with exact say nail disc for
> unmasking but at the same time the prcessing is
> getting so good in SORTING OUT ferrous non ferrous
> with a factory setting thats aggresive in my way
> of thinking yet still produces...
>
>
> Ok I know I have gotten off track but I wanted to
> express what I feel and see in my field
> outings....
>
> I really wanted to see F.T. offer a Tone break for
> just the 2f but they would not do it on their
> f75/T2 just said they would look into it..I know
> they think its overkill...but not on THAT
> platfrom,,, its not there (unmasking ability)
> using an audio report on the F75 T2 thats black
> and white with no gray.......on the next Platfrom
> maybe it will be done in processing not in
> exactness and the engineers will offer it...
>
>
> I truly believe that detector companys are
> starting to get digital designs
> modernized....processing can do wonders.....I
> believe if we ever get a Discriminating P.I. it
> will be done with a Processor, doing alot of
> switching instantanously on every target to give a
> simple audible report..
>
> Keith

Keith on your comments about a discriminating PI unit: Carl the lead PI guy from Whites joined FT last year and for some reason I keep thinking that FT is working on such a machine,but who knows.
Steve makes some important points about whether a machine will identify nonferrous low conductors as ferrous--I am taking my F75 to AZ this year and I will certainly be aware of this,however,most of the time I hunt in AM or use my PI's.