Some ramblings about DEUS/F75V2/CoRe/F19/Explorer2 In bad dirt

This week a buddy of mine and me were working on a small site next to a roadbed in the woods....

The site earlier in the year netted me a few Bullet's(.58 cal. 3-ringers) with the DEUS..

We went back since the foliage was dead..the site was logged and exposed the dirt earlier but left alot of small limbs lying around...the limbs dried out and left jsut the smaller sticks that we could kick out of the way and hunt more thoroughly than back in the Summer...

Now heres the problem with the site...It seems to be a roadside camp real small maybe 30ft by 15ft. slopped toward a creek....its lying in a plow terrace beside the old road.....the dirt G.B.s' at 89 mostly....and fluctuates down to 77..with all points in between.laced with hot rocks..the F.E.meter on the F75 and F19 is maxed out....it never comes off the max bars....scattered nails but not thick maybe one every 4 ft or so so no masking issues form iron....but severe masking from dirt..

Heres the outcome of this small area....Bullets are about 6-7 inches deep..

DEUS 9 inch coil was HEARING the WIDTH of the 3 ringers that are left by using the -1 silencer and reactivity 3...18khzYet if there was larger iron then we would have a problem as the bullets were making the iron roll tone high/low...but you could tell these hits were larger than the small nails so you dug them to check...target I.D. was hung on 98 most of the time...

The F19 with 11"Biaxial was the clear winner in VISUAL I.D. And it also heard the same bullets in cross checking..V-Break 31...with better I.D. on the Bulletts...they would show up at 75-80 ..pretty close to accurate...Yet the audio of the F19 is tight and not as talkitive WIDTH wise on these bullets as the dirt is just shuttign down the signal...so to tell a nail from a Bullet was difficult ..yet the F19 nails would go to 98 usually when falsing so the I.D. helped.

The F75V2 well was just shut down...the bullets were reading 11-12 ,,nails did too..Not much you can do unles you go to all metal mode and listen for the waw of a nail to the smooth round sound of a bullet....the groudnchanges constantly so rebalancing was tedious...

The CoRe would read the bullets as 99 or 1....with a rolling iron tone like the DEUS yet not quite as strong reprot WIDTH wise in the audio...the all metla mode though was very good and auto tracking showed off in this mode with slow sweep speed..and heard the bullets quite well..with the ROUND sound..

Explorer 2 no problem on the bullets in no pattern/open screen ....but the rocks were ringing too...so a keen ear and patience was the order to hunt this spot....

The deepest piece of brass and only piece was a Pocket watch inside piece..about 1.5 inch diameter..it was on edge about 10 inches deep...the F19 was saying dig the whole time ..the DEUS was more flip flop weird sound like on edge items do....

Which is the clear winner on this 15x30 site?

The DEUS found the bullets first...with audio width...the F19 Visual I.D.s the best....

So here we go ..no one machine can do it all.....add more and larger iron to this small site and the DEUS audio advantage is gone...

Few other thoughts...

The DEUS has the best audio in iron period....The CoRe has the best small coil in iron for unmasking the first few inches of small items...The F75 in iron debris with small coil b.p. mode can peek in between iron and hear deep non ferrous few machines can, but the F75 has to have less than 3 fe bars ...In less than 3 fe bars the F75 is DEEEEEEP also on isloated targets...The F19 can hear things in iron with the top machines in the world in the top layers with adequate coil....Explorer 2 best I.D. at depth on isolated targets...

Believe it or not the F19 is a real performer and more of a excellent crossover if yo can only have one machine....especially with small coil for unmasking.. and add the 13 ultimate for depth...especially if you stay in medium to high F.E. dirt...pretty dang good i.d. to boot...

What do you think???How do you see it ???

Just a couple days of testing...just thought I would post some in field result's..

Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2015 05:56PM by Keith Southern.

Some good info Keith. So if you have 2 bars or less the f75ltd2 is the pick. Three or more bars better to opt for F19 or Deus?? And Keith how many bars on F75 is considered medium mineralized soil?? And almost forgot, what was the deus iron meter showing??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2015 06:06AM by tnsharpshooter.

DEUS meter pegged out...

2/3 bars jumping I would call medium...

3/4 jumping high medium to high..

non 1 or 2 steady great to low medium..

I know in my soil once 3 bars stays lit iron tone starts to prevail on targets that are not iron..

Keith

Keith on mild ground on isolated targets can the new Fisher f75 beat the Explorer 2 on depth?

Keith,please tell me when you have 3-4 bars on f75 what numbers/strength shows deus?

I think I want an F19 running on the 13khz freq.of the F75.

Really it looks like VLF is maxed out. Guess they might be some VLF machines out there that may do some better but I doubt it.

I know all machines are subject to reading good targets as iron in bad soil and on max depth targets but why do some of the Fisher machines seem to be the worst offenders?

I really wanted to like the CZ3d but in my mild soil it would iron tone on 7 and 8" coins about half the time and high tone on nails the other half. Sold it and my nail count went down and coin count went up.

And remember, I think the F19 and Core units both did better if I'm not mistaken with Keith's videoed bic pen test vs F75ltd2. Haven't seen the bic pen test done with Deus. I wonder if the results of the bic pen tests are related to a detectors ability(excluding BBS/FBS machines) to perform in "worse" dirt ???



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2015 10:56AM by tnsharpshooter.

The Fe meter pegging out, is how the soil in Culpeper, VA will do on the F75 as well. I can only think of two spots I've ran into that here in TN that would peg the meter to the top...most of the soil I encounter is 3 and 4 bar. But I know exactly what you mean about the ID wanting to give that number 11 on bullets. That's how it did up there...and the other problem is, is that the number 11 must be some generic number that the F75 defaults to when it's not real sure. Because I recall the breastplate I dug up there, giving the same number and it was only about 10 inches deep. As did a bunch of other goodies. The problem with that...is that a lot of junk iron gets thrown in on that too. The only way to tell was to listen real close in all metal or to just dig. I did the later a BUNCH up there...I filled one of the big display cases full of relics...but I also filled my junk pouch with iron too.

George "Tex" Kinsey is also using the F19 right now and really liking it. He took it over to the red dirt in Culpeper that he hunts, and said he was very surprised at how well it did there. If I remember right, he was saying he was getting decent numbers on buttons 8 and 9 inches deep. If I rewind my mind back to the Shadow X5, it also ran at that same operating frequency, and did decent for a lot of people in that soil. I've never tried one there so I can't add anything to that part of it.

When dirt gets that bad, I have a pulse machine in my hand anyway.

Pac man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I want an F19 running on the 13khz freq.of
> the F75.
>
> Really it looks like VLF is maxed out. Guess they
> might be some VLF machines out there that may do
> some better but I doubt it.
>
> I know all machines are subject to reading good
> targets as iron in bad soil and on max depth
> targets but why do some of the Fisher machines
> seem to be the worst offenders?
>
> I really wanted to like the CZ3d but in my mild
> soil it would iron tone on 7 and 8" coins about
> half the time and high tone on nails the other
> half. Sold it and my nail count went down and coin
> count went up.

How were you running the CZ pacman?

Disc and sens wise I mean?

I have slightly mineralized soil here in Michigan in a lot of the areas I hunt (GB at an avg. of 85 on most machines) and FE bars run 3 to 4 much of the time but all of the CZ's I've ever used here I have ran wide open/no disc at max sens and have dug coins down to around 12" sounding as such (even deeper on the white sand beaches of Lake MI where for the most part it's more neutral/less mineralized)...

I believe that a Pulse machine will be your go to detector for quite some time. Those with dirt that bad are in the minority. The detector manufacturers and marketing are all about the entry level machines. Minelab has a few on the way from certain posts I have read. Garrett has no interest in marketing anything more costly than the AT Pro. The 2500 is older than the dirt some detect in. First Texas rewrap after rewrap of the same detector. Not that a detector has to be costly to perform well. But in my opinion the high mineral dirt problem will be solved by accident not research.

The F75 is a mixed bag. It has an awesome all metal mode. It has horrible disc in bad ground.

My methodology when employing disc on the F75 is to use all metal. Acquire the target. Now work the coil and target hard. Quick on the ground sweeps from multiple angles. I often found that just one non-ferrous bounce in ten sweeps meant a non-ferrous target. That means somebody running a regular disc setting and making a single pass over a target has a poor chance of getting that single indicator non-ferrous reading.

We all know certain ferrous stuff like to give off non-ferrous readings. It appears to me the designer has to build in a certain bias when creating the detector. Do I want the detector to lean non-ferrous so that as much ferrous as possible is called just that, but you miss borderline non-ferrous? Or do I want the machine to lean ferrous, miss no non-ferrous, but also now call lots of ferrous items non-ferrous?

People hate digging junk, so my guess is Fisher has leaned with the F75 towards the digging less junk aspect, but now the machine misses good targets.it goes deeper though, it just seems to have problems at the borderline.

The Euro machines tend to just focus on pulling non-ferrous, and if you have to dig some junk, so be it. But they just seem to work better, period, in the borderline area.

My question Keith is - the FORS factory presets to ID Mask 10. Have you ever gone lower? What happens at 9? That is on my to-do list. I think it will introduce more noise but shift the border, so to speak. In low mineral ground in particular lower ID Mask settings may have a real benefit.

My last F75 was a solid fail on the BIC pen test. Called it ferrous every time - reading of 1. My current F75 is only marginally better. The Gold Bug Pro/F19 always fares better on the test as does my FORS Gold. I guess I need to double check against my FORS CoRe now that I have one.

I think that little brass and silicon carbide tips rides real near that magic edge, and a machine like the F75 that calls it ferrous in an air test is really going to suffer in bad ground on proper ferrous/non-ferrous readings. It is the one reason why my F75 may not survive the long haul, though I keep giving it extra credit for the all metal performance.

So did you try the At Gold in all metal or even with some disc and the smaller coil? And on the deus did you set your tx power to 1? And what if the Deus comes out with a small coil? This will be a good place to try the racer. I have an area just like that... railroad work yard very small area and in the woods near the tracks nails, nails and more nails. I found a couple of cool relics but didn't go by the sound or the ID on the deus if it had a tone I dug it no matter what and worked the area for three saturdays in a row. Will go back next year I know the masking is very heavy...but yes sometimes you have to bring two detectors which for me is a pain. And I guess it would be nice to have two detectors that can take on just about anything...even better to have one that can be programed to fit the sight. Interesting to see the deus with a deep small coil or the racer be able to do the same. I am really interested in seeing you try the racer Keith and to see if you keep it in your lineup. Of course the best way to hunt this way is to have a deus type detector one that can be packed because it can fit in a backpack that is avarage size and it's so light....

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

3/4's up the line bar filled..

Very nice, information packed write up, Keith.
In your opinion, would the small coil on the F75v2 have helped?
Thanks

Good tip on discriminating non-ferrous while in all-metal on F75, Steve.
I'll be sure and give that a try. Thanks

Pleasant Garden, NC
AT Max, Nokta Impact, MX Sport, Nokta FORS Relic, GPX 4800, Infinium, Racer, Deus, F75SE, Nautilus DMC II (order of acquisition, last to first)

Does an archeologist argue with a plow? A bureaucrat with a bulldozer?

Exactly Steve..

The Euros are less prone to call non ferrous as ferrous....

the F75 seems to on the other hand be so worried about having you not dig iron they placed alot of bias towards strong Iron I.D...

Again why I like to have a gold machine to relic hunt in iron and also in bad soil...they are more geared for leaning towards calling targets non ferrous than ferrous and as it should be for a gold machine...

Again why I see the F19 as maybe the best U.S. offering at the moment for relic hunting iron and also in any dirt thats above medium..Good combo unit...I was talikng just about this the other night with a buddy who was hunting the site with me,,,,we agreed the F19 was a great do it all Relic unit and a Niche iron unit....

May look into a G2+ if the performance keeps up on the F19....I like a pistol grip and FINALLY they gave us a back light on the G2 for Night hunting !!

I was running the CoRe on zero disc DI2....Talk about some gain kicking in on the CoRe drop below about 7 and she starts top get really sparked up....the iron tone was coming in as 1 so zero disc let me hear that number audibly as the low tone report..

i will say the CoRe is about as good in th emienrla as the DEUS audibly...aboput as bad Visually....
The F19 was less iron roll tone more exact tight with more accruate I.D. to boot..but larger iron in the mix in the partucular site and certain nucances woluld have to be developed to gett he goodies...would it be visual or audible....or a mix of both....

this is where I see the F19 as a good all around unit for bad dirt and iron it has a mix of both....I think for the WAY I HUNT I like the F19 over the F75 for an American go to relic unit..Now in more neutral to grat dirt the F75 is deeeeeep...but it cant unmask as well as the others unless you go to small 5" coil then its certian unique targets it sees....If you can have alot of units them then its a Great arsenal unit....

Bad soil relic hunter iron unmasker-sleuth hunter cant afford the DEUS or require betetr visual I.D. or scared of the GMP lack of support in the States then a F19/G2+ is a very good unit to own...

I for the moment still see the CoRe as a great unit workhorse ,,,accurate good I.D. great ability to hear non ferrous as non ferrous at decent depth in mineral....Blendy audio helps to keep from digging mis-shaped iron...Its almost equal to my F19 in what it does around here but believe it or not the F19 has a slight advantage in more accurate I.D. in the worst of soil..


Theres three machines on the scene right now that handles my dirt and unmask in iron so I call them combo units.. yet they all are very close yet they all have slight differences,,,DEUS/F19/CoRe...

Keith

I dont have a AT Gold Lawrenzo...I surmise it would hear the Bullets in all metal surely...yet and maybe the Ground bal window option would help but they was this small patch continously rolls the Ground bal up and down it may be that disc mode would be the order and hopefully a audio report or I.D. consistancy would be of help...

again no one perfect unit ...better be glad we have alot of units to use...because conditons are different and unique everywhere...thats why a person really needs to be in tune and KNOW what machine they NEED not what machine they WANT...

And to answer the P.I. post....Yes the best In that dirt...and with minimal iron would find more than the VLFs have...yet same spot with a more condensed iron debris area and dig it all comes to mind....This is where if we ever see a P.I. with just simple Iron I.D. to depth we could open up countless sites across the world...Wonder what the Minelab GPZ-7000 will bring to the table?



Keith

not the 5 but maybe the 5x10 DD would of gave a tone flip flop???..

Keith

Keith, I wnder how the CTX would have done in that patch, instead of the explorer?

What coil did you run on the Ex 2 kieth? Found the 10x12 sef smoothes it out and bang on deep targets. Ferrous sounds is amust in that iron.

Was Using 10x12 sef..ferrous..yes that's a smooth coil..

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I for the moment still see the CoRe as a great
> unit workhorse ,,,accurate good I.D. great ability
> to hear non ferrous as non ferrous at decent depth
> in mineral....Blendy audio helps to keep from
> digging mis-shaped iron...Its almost equal to my
> F19 in what it does around here but believe it or
> not the F19 has a slight advantage in more
> accurate I.D. in the worst of soil..
>
> Keith

I believe it for sure. The Gold Bug Pro has an excellent reputation as a nugget hunter for exactly that reason, and is why it made a good base unit for developing the F19. That and the EMI resistance.

The FORS and F19 are so close I believe it is dependent on the particular ground. One may have the tiniest edge here, the other there. Real hair splitting stuff. My hope is the Gold Racer turns out to be the tie breaker. Time will tell.

Thanks as always for your observations. Here are some from the very worst ground on the planet [australiangoldfields.freeforums.org]

Hi Keith,,,,I'm wondering how Little Red Riding Hood did????....JJ

Possum I have no way of Knowing that on the CTX...Probably close.But just guessing..

Jimmy if I recall Red Riding hood got ate by the big bad wolf in the original story version...

But in later versions she was saved before the wolf ate her..

LOL!!

Keith

I just got a F19 & haven't used it yet. My go to detector has been the G2. I've done great with it recently & look forward to trying the F19 out. The G2 is the best relic machine I've ever used. The only time it has given me trouble was at a spot that was surrounded by weed burning electric fences. That's it. Love the G2. Really looking forward to using the F19. HH TIM

I wish you great success with the F19...

One thing I do notice on the F19 and the G2/Gold bug pro never did this...4G drives it crazy...I feel they have cranked the gain up really high on the F19 it seems to be way more sparky..

Keith

Hi Keith,,,hey buddy thanks for the info,she was probably saved by a small margin in the end....Looks like it should be an interesting read....I wonder when the book will be available?...LoL.....JJ

Keith what's 4G?

4G cell phone data...

don't notice it when using voice..but when using the data it drives the f19 bonkers..


Keith

Man I thought you lived in the country. Ain't gotta worry about 4G here. We can only get that in town. I do good to get 1x around the county here. LOL

Oh ok I usually turn my phone off when I'm digging. I've noticed the if I run my phone by the control housing on my G2 it makes it act up & chatter. Thanks Tim