Educational 'Repeat-Occurence'

Found another Indian Head penny in a nail-infested area IN MONOTONE! Because of co-locate masking..... the IH penny VID'd mostly around '13'..... but would occasionally bounce up as high as a ID of '27'. In MONOTONE......... no matter how I rotated my body around the target...... the audible resolution was superb. In multi-tone...... the target MOSTLY reported as low-tone iron! I would have NOT recovered this target.....had I of been in ANY other tone option other than monotone. Remember; with any multi-tone option selected....any VDI reading of '15' or lower....is a iron low-tone on the F75. (Most of the nails in this particular area were 'silenced' with a Disc setting of '6'. ------Repeat reiteration reinforced!

Tom

If in fact a good signal was had with body rotation,the cz-3d would have picked it up as well and reported a high tone with a sniper coil depending on the concentration of iron. Unless,the site is almost completely masked. Iron wouldn't give a good repeatable signal on the cz-3d,but if a nail was in too close a proxcimity to the coin it wouldn't report right. Since the cz-3d would report as a high tone, and the iron reporting as a low tone, and a nail tip reporting as a high tone but not pin-pointing properly,target separation becomes critical.

I can also see in this case where the numerical/VDI reading would be beneficial.

What was your coil size,Tom?

How close were the surrounding targets to the good target?

Ken

Good info tom...i will be using the mono tone next time out for sure..and listen for good repeat signals in a full rotation..that was a great find..How deep was the IH..

Hi Tom,

What kind of initial "hit" did you get that caused you to stop and check the IH out or were you taking the time to check out every small sounding hit even if it was a low iron TID?

Did you happen to hit it well centered on the first sweep or was it somewhat of a miss-sweep??

When sweeping from different angles could you always work up a non-ferrous indication using monotone? If so and at that point, knowing it was a possible good target (non-ferrous) did you compare wide sweeps vs narrow centered sweeps? If you did, which worked better on this particular target at giving the most consistent Audio and TID reading?

Lotsa questions? But when working iron it takes experience and knowing your detector using all of the above techniques to help make the did-no-dig decision. I have recovered many iron co-located IH's but never one that bounced iron/low nickel. Mid tab yeah but not any lower than that.

HH Tom Z

Oh yeah, which coil and gain settings were you using?

Still waiting for Fisher to come out with something that uses a well designed DD coil at a lower frequency. The F5 sounds kinda nice but.. it appears they are holding off on coil options to see how well it will sell. Got sick of that waiting game on coils with the old Fisher.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2008 12:05PM by Jackpine.

Where I live the Indian head penny is in the 50's , must be the iron that change it.

I assume you were digging all non-ferrous signals?

I am VERY impressed with all of your 'technical' questions. First; The IH penny was approx 11" deep; VERY shallow by Florida standards. A 5" coil equipped CZ would not have acquired this coin for two primary reasons; = TOO deep for small coil (5" coil can go approx 10" deep on coins)..... AND also,,,,, the CZ does NOT have ADJUSTABLE iron disc; it's fixed..... and ,,,,,, in this particular nail-infested site, I critically needed hair-splitting iron Disc adjustability. Keep in mind..... the F-75 was ID'ing the coin/iron combo as 'hi-iron'. I knew the iron in this particular area would Disc out at approx Disc setting of '6'.......,,,,,, and any reading above this set-point is highly suspect.....and would grab my attention. I was not investigating every nail.... only targets that reported any form of audio ABOVE the Disc setting of '6'. I initially hit the target with (most probably) a fairly close to TDC pinpoint sweep over the target for the first time (probably a lucky sweep). The detector (in monotone) burped a fairly good monotone audio report. Looking at the VDI..... and watching it hit '13' on most of the sweeps,,,,,,....... I knew that when I would switch over to a multi-tone setting (my choice is 4-tone)..... the detector would naturally AUDIO-ID the target as low-tone iron,,,,..... as anything '15' and below is iron. In monotone..... the detector broke Disc squelch and reported a fairly clear (not so raspy) audible report. Rotating my body around the target..... and the target remained fairly audio-constant (strangely....for a masked target). Because I have experienced this phenomenon many times before.... I was NOT careful with trying to find the exact masking culprit..... But I will say this; I found several decomposed iron blood-spots in the soil,,,,on my way down to the coin,,,,,,.........,,,,,,,,NEVER once expecting it to be a coin... But expecting to find some form of a non-Fe item. I was utilizing the stock 7" x 11" coil.... and Sens was '99'. Short-stroke sweeps vs. long-stroke sweeps made no differentiable delineation; HOWEVER, in this particular complex target scenario,,,,, a FASTER sweep seemed to give a slight advantage in BOTH audio resolution AND slightly higher VDI readings. Once the IH was out of the ground..... and in the excavated pile of dirt.... it clearly ID'd as a '57'.
Now...... let me confuse you even more! I increased Disc up to '08' and EVERYTHING disappeared! This sounds like a typo.... doesn't it!!! ((( One of the primary secrets/attributes of F-75 & T-2 inherent operating characteristics ))). You can verify this phenomenon by simply locating a nail in the ground with the Disc set on '0'. You will probably find that the nail/iron target gives a VDI reading of say; '11'. NOW.... rotate Disc up to '6' or '7'... and the nail will be Disc'd out! KNOW YOUR DETECTOR!!!! It is in these minute' variances/details that separate amateur from professional (read = nutcase!). This is also a perfect example & demo that the VDI vs. audio side of the house is divorced/separate from each other. Never think that this is a detriment!

(( In one of my previous posts below..... I reported nearly this exact posting...... except in more detail ))

Outta time!

Tom

Yeah I agree you are a "nutcase" LOL

I sure wish I could hunt like that at my iron infested sites. It would take days to get thru even a small area!! I look for any indication of non-ferrous and usually dig stuff that bounces iron/low foil but you are talking pretty extreme detecting with your settings and mindset!

Yep hunting the old iron you gotta try fast vs slow sweeps combined with wide vs narrow to see if one will give a more consistent read. The manual is just a guide line on which generally works best. I just naturally do it while at the same time pinpointing the "spot on the ground".

Thanks and... Excellent recovery!!

Tom Z

I missed one! SeattleMD.... Yes, I was recovering ALL non-Fe targets, as this area is known for producing early Mercury's at only 10" - 11" deep.... on avg.

Tom

Tom,
This use of disc level 6 monotone,,,,,,stills applies to DST upgraded units for unmasking, correct??? Realizing FA process may do a bit better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2015 06:23AM by tnsharpshooter.

Tom what was the coin dated. I ask that because fattie change things as well.

I have found some are shy about using less disc because their units make too much noise. But for me I love it and less gives me more finds.

LowBoy

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NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Found another Indian Head penny in a nail-infested
> area IN MONOTONE! Because of co-locate
> masking..... the IH penny VID'd mostly around
> '13'..... but would occasionally bounce up as high
> as a ID of '27'. In MONOTONE......... no matter
> how I rotated my body around the target...... the
> audible resolution was superb. In multi-tone......
> the target MOSTLY reported as low-tone iron! I
> would have NOT recovered this target.....had I of
> been in ANY other tone option other than monotone.
> Remember; with any multi-tone option
> selected....any VDI reading of '15' or lower....is
> a iron low-tone on the F75. (Most of the nails in
> this particular area were 'silenced' with a Disc
> setting of '6'. ------Repeat reiteration
> reinforced!
>
> Tom
That matches up perfectly with what I observed in my Open Lot/ Trash Dump location next to my house. With the T2 I was playing with different tones and found that signal tone was sharper and easier to use in this trash pile. My judgment to dig or not dig was more on the quality of the tone and audio feedback on depth, I only dug deeper targets that where small and clearly separated for nearby targets. Never found anything good but some of the targets could of been good - if that makes any sense,

Bryanna - Nebraska

Current - New to me but not new MXT Pro and T2 SE2 - Previous Minelab Sovereign GT, Minelab Safari, Whites DFX, Whites Eagle Spectrum
Smile its a good for you!

FINALLY....... a moment to catch up.

dewcon4414 = Looking back in my records...... .the Indian Head Penny was dated 1890.

tnss = Absolutely spot-on question. With the new Gen-2 F75's........ the iron "scaling" IS INDEED different. What makes this a bit difficult to provide a discrete/resolute answer is......... the different prototypes (subsequent versions ....... 7/14, 11/14, 12/14 etc........ ) then the latest/final production units......... the scaling of iron Disc and ID........ is different.

I wanted to post solid, real-world usable data here on this forum; yet, different units present different iron scaling.
BUT........ all is not lost. If you are detecting a nail-infested site in monotone on a T2 or F75 (or most any other detector in monotone)........... find/detect a few different nails......... and rotate your Disc to the point whereby the audio presentation of a iron nail is JUST SHORT OF a normal/elongated audio response over a nail. What this does for you is..................... where there IS a non-ferrous target in close/colocate with the nail................. the audio response will then be 'full length clean audio'.

Bryannagirl = Exactly!

Tom
I did a test In a small plastic test garden. I buried a quarter approx 5 in and placed a med size rusted nail on top of the dirt off to the side. (Enough to swing the coil Over the quarter without going over the nail. About 6 " on the left of the quarter. For the life of me could not get a beep on the quarter with the 11/ 7 coil until I moved the nail approx 8 in away. I tried all process; 2 tone, 3 tone, lowered sens etc. I did not try mono though. I did have a little bit better luck w the 5 " coil but still mulled out quiet a bit. I did get better results when changing directions of my swing to where the nail was closer to the back of my coil instead of left side of coil. I was really shocked at how the nail wiped out the quarter. Was it because the nail was on top of the dirt? I talked w Keith about this by wanted to run this by you as well.

Your X-Y-Z ...... 3-dimensional axis based test results are correct. A nail on the surface ........ vs ......... a quarter several inches beneath the nail (even though the nail is several inches off-center of the quarter)...... will still completely mask the large quarter. (Good thing it was not a dime!). A nail on the surface .... produces a signal many, many times stronger than the quarter. EVEN IF the nail is at 4"....... and the quarter is at 5".............. the signal strength of the nail is still much larger than the quarter only 1" deeper. Masking is SOOO severe........ unsuspectingly greater than most folks could fathom.

Bflo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom
> I did a test In a small plastic test garden. I
> buried a quarter approx 5 in and placed a med size
> rusted nail on top of the dirt off to the side.
> (Enough to swing the coil Over the quarter without
> going over the nail. About 6 " on the left of the
> quarter. For the life of me could not get a beep
> on the quarter with the 11/ 7 coil until I moved
> the nail approx 8 in away. I tried all process; 2
> tone, 3 tone, lowered sens etc. I did not try mono
> though. I did have a little bit better luck w the
> 5 " coil but still mulled out quiet a bit. I did
> get better results when changing directions of my
> swing to where the nail was closer to the back of
> my coil instead of left side of coil. I was really
> shocked at how the nail wiped out the quarter.
> Was it because the nail was on top of the dirt?
> I talked w Keith about this by wanted to run this
> by you as well.

BFlo,

Your experience is indeed eye opening. Just think for example how much masking one ax head provides (from a square inch/cubic inch standpoint). This is why in areas that have say produced coins---in the areas where the highest concentrations of coins found===dig the iron, you never know what may be unmask. And believe it or not you may dig an iron masker and sweep the area/spot and not find say a coin---reason disturbed ground matrix. Only to return later and indeed find a deeper coin that was indeed unmask by digging the iron masker. This is I feel one reason sometimes when we return to a site and make a find or 2, we sometimes wonder if we indeed missed the target or the supposed newer/better detector indeed was the cause/reason.

And don't forget someone else unknowingly besides yourself may have in fact dug the masker in a previous hunt. So many variables!!!!!!!