300 Dead Indians Exhumed

Just this past Sunday, I recovered my 300'th Indian Head penny in nearly 44 years of detecting. Six (6) of the Indians were 'Fatty' White Cents. I will exclude these 6 coins from this report........ as they are a completely different type (conductivity) of coin.

Many different detectors were used ...... in the findings of these Indian Head cents; however, the CZ and F75 were the primary units used for the bulk of these coins. What I'm wanting to 'educate' with is............... the nominal, median average ID of these coins found in real-world/real-dirt conditions....... equates out to be a '53' on the F75 platform. This data comes from 44 years & 300 Indian Head pennies exhumed ....... collective/recorded data. This is the higher end of the aluminum pull-tab conductivity range on a standard CZ-5/6/7/70........ which is a 'mid-tone' audio report. The bulk of this (lower-than-normal ID) phenomenon stems from the coins being at deeper depths, partial masking and mineralization. Yes, there were several Indians that correctly ID'd right at '58' (+ - 2) in clean/clear ground........ and not too deep........ on the F75; however, this is not the 'norm'. (Minelab E-Trac posed the same ID issue/problem).

Detectorists be ware.

Interesting data Tom--thanks.

Nice work Tom,interesting to know that if I'm in an area that might hold Indians it would be wise to dig downscale a bit. Congratulations on that stack of coins!

Kevin

Spot on Tom. Even the Minelabs don't ID with close #s. Bigger spread. I figure in a lot of sites, it's nickels and IHs that are still in pretty good supply; especially in the more modern trashy areas. One real solution=DIG!!!

I thought I was going to see a good read on some long unknown Indian tribe found or the like!

But = good info Tom

interesting to know the % of Injuns by dividing the coins by the yrs detected and also the % of Fatty's VS the most common type

300 injuns / 44 yrs diggin = 6.81 coins per yr (approx. 7 injuns per yr) = not too bad

add in the fatty's and the % goes up closer to 7 coins per yr

Nice how you averaged the vid #s via all coins dug --- too much record keeping for me!

I just dig everything above iron tone and call it good...

PS
Actually and depending on the site and machine being used = sometimes I dig iron signals too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2015 06:20PM by MichiganRelicHunter.

((( Folks would be nauseated if they could see my documented library. )))

Tom
You underestimate us. I bet most would like to see it. Maybe even buy it. Hint hint.

What do you mean 'Fatty' White Cents is that copper-nickel?? never heard that term before.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> ((( Folks would be nauseated if they could see my
> documented library. )))


Try us. We dare you........

That is why I like a detector with some type of Tone I.D. and Modulated audio. Not so much to cherry pick, But to run disc. at 0 or as low as possible as to not Disc. out Injuns of any type and the older Nickels and let the tones tell me when one of these is deep. I can live with out Visual I.D.,But not Tone I.D. with some Modulation . Almost all my Detectors have it in Disc. mode that is. JMHO.

Am I the only one that read the title and thought it was some sort of link to a news article? I thought "geez, I would hope they were dead". LOL

Edit for spelling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2015 02:02AM by TabWhisperer.

TabWhisperer Wrote:
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> Am I the only one that read the title and thought
> it was some sort of link to a news article? I
> thought "geez, I would hope the were dead".

That's what I thought, title is a bit off just my opinion only.

guvmore Wrote:
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> What do you mean 'Fatty' White Cents is that
> copper-nickel?? never heard that term before.

I imagine Tom is referring to the 1859-1964 cents which were thicker & the composition was different.


Issuing Government United States of America
Denomination $0.01 (One Cent)
Coinage Type Indian Head Cent (a.k.a. Indian Head Penny)
Mintage Dates 1859 to 1909
Production Facilities Philadelphia and San Francisco
Mint Mark Location On the reverse, at the bottom below the bow on the wreath. (1908 & 1909 only)
Composition 1859 - 1864: 88% copper, 12% nickel (copper-nickel)
1864 - 1909: 95% copper, 5% tin and zinc (bronze)
Weight 1859 - 1864: 4.67 grams
1864 - 1909: 3.11grams
Weight Tolerance (+/-) 1859 - 1864: 0.259 grams
1864 - 1909: 0.290grams
Actual Gold Weight (AGW) 0.0000 Troy Ounces (contains no gold)
Actual Silver Weight (ASW) 0.0000 Troy Ounces (contains no silver)
Actual Platinum Weight (APW) 0.0000 Troy Ounces (contains no Platinum)
Specific Gravity 1859 - 1864: 8.92 (copper-nickel)
1864 - 1909: 8.84 (bronze)
Diameter 19 mm
Thickness 1859 - 1864: 2.33 mm
1864 - 1909: 1.55 mm
Edge Type Plain
Obverse Description Lady Liberty wearing an Indian headdress facing left, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA around perimeter with date at bottom
Obverse Designer & Engraver James B. Longacre
Reverse Description 1859: ONE CENT inside laurel wreath
1860 - 1909: ONE CENT inside an wreath made of oak leaves with a Union Shield at the top
Reverse Designer & Engraver James B. Longacre
KM# (Krause-Mishler Catalog No.) 1859: 87
1860 - 1864: 90
1864 - 1909: 90a
Notes Difficulties in properly striking the copper-nickel composition led to the decision to change the composition to bronze in the middle of 1864.

Makes me want to go count my injuns.................. Tom, were most of the I.H.'s found in Florida?

Hi Tom,,,,Thanks for sharing the facts of your collected data....It is now up to the reader to interrupt this info and possibly put it to work for themselves.....I'm almost willing to bet that after 44 years of detecting the bulk of your Injun's were found in the last 10 years or so....Did you also find out that the condition of your Injun's changed the conductivity of them??....That 12% Nickel composition of the Fatties & the added corrosion really brings their conductivity range down in the dumps...I am kinda curious as to what percentage of your Injun's were in really decent shape?...Them Injun's are out there just waiting to be exhumed by someone who knows their personality just a little bit better than the average Joe....JJ

Very interesting Tom and that is terrific achieving CCC, Documentation is part of the hobby and auctally helps with research. Furthermore, Encourages one to get out and push the envelope in our great hobby.

Glad to hear you've maintained good documentation, A library to share with friends and family for generations.

Congrats,
Paul (Ca)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2015 02:53PM by Old California.

Tom, can you summarize the breakdown by year?

NASA-Tom Wrote:
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> ((( Folks would be nauseated if they could see my
> documented library. )))

Not on this forum...where statistical education is highly valued.

Congrats on your Indian Head milestone, that's an awesome accomplishment

Tom with your vast experience, and scientifically recorded results, you should (in your already limited spare time ) write a book. You're already written many great articles, perhaps a book is in order?

Are you able to share the breakdown of the dates/quantities found?

HH,
Brian

We have a lot of similar bronze coins here in the U.K, and they, too, show significant drops in target ID value due to corrosion. The coins in question are farthings, halfpennies, pennies from 1860 - 1967. The alloy was originally "... based on that adopted by France in 1852, and consisted of 95% copper, 4% tin and 1% zinc" though several changes to the alloy were made in the 1920's - 1940's. But as an example, the penny reads '80' on the F75 when new, or when a very clean dug-up. But most of them typically read 55 - 65 after years of burial.

Soooo much to say. Let's start with a few things.

Yes...... the bulk of the Indians were found in Florida................... to lead into having found most of them within the past 10 years.
Corrosion does indeed play a large role in the coins ID. And..... if the rim of the coin is 'dinged' ...... this can play a large role as to the coins ID.
ALL of the Indian Head Penny data provided above could easily have been 'silver dimes' ..... or ........ silver 'trimes'....... or Half Dollars. Any type of coin. I could have selected Half Dimes. Just be aware that ANY target can have it's ID 'skewed' by a multitude of variables.
Yes...... 1859 - 1864 Indian Head Cents (Fatty's/White Cents) are fairly low conductors........ completely different from late 1864 - 1909 Indian Cents. I focused all of my collected data on 1864-1909 only.

Truthfully........... ALL of the data provided above........... is completely inaccurate null/void. What you are witnessing/measuring....... is "MY" very personal detecting capabilities/mindset/drive/persistence........ and 'willingness to dig' certain targets. For example: If I were to dig every 'iron' ID signal looking for Indian Head pennies.................................. I would unmask MANY Indians........ and also find fringe-depth Indians. If more of my found/dug Indians ID'd as 'iron' (due to extreme depths or unmasked)........ imagine how this would 'skew' my collected end-resultant data. And this leads to:

The advent of the T2 really opened up many old sites all over again. Then.... the F75 did yet another large increment of opening up old sites.......even behind the T2. Then the GMP. When I started hunting old areas (that I had beat to death) with the new T2...... I started finding many old coins. Many were Indians. Yes............. a ton of head-to-head testing was performed before I dug most of these targets. At this point....... nearly all of my Indians were dug with a CZ. Then...... when they were found behind a CZ (using the new T2)........ most of the Indians ID'd as 'iron' to the CZ (head-to-head testing).............. or ............ the CZ would remain silent. Imagine if I used the 'iron' ID that the CZ gave on these T2 found Indians...... in my collected/compiled averaging data. I would then have written this thread that...... the bulk of all the Indians I have found........ nearly "averaged" as a 'iron' ID! Sooooooooo........................ this is to say...................... that I utilized the ID of the Indian's found........ was based off of .... the detector that was utilized in finding them....and subsequent ID........... and not the older detector that could not find/ID the coin properly.

More to say........... outta time.

A few more minutes.

To answer the 'dates' questions regarding the 300 Indians.......... here's what (detecting-wise) really matters.......... and what I have learned/discovered in real-world conditions........ in regards to these copper Indians (1864 - 1909):

Indians in the date range from 1890 - 1909............ once out of the ground and all variables removed.............. would air-test ID at '60' on a F75 platform. Plus/minus 2 ID points.
Indians in the date range from 1864 - 1889............ once out of the ground and all variables removed.............. would air-test ID at '58' on a F75 platform. Plus/minus 3 ID points.

It is easy to automatically assume that......... the older the Indian.......... the more time it spent in the ground; hence, the lower the ID....... due to more 'time' for corrosion. Sounds logical; yet, in my findings....... this is not quite correct. There is 'some' tie to 'time in the ground' ; yet/rather............ the most predominant/pronounced factor is ............... the TYPE of mineralization the coin is exposed to. If close to water..... with higher concentrate of tannic acid.......... the coin will 'rot' at a faster rate; subsequently, producing a lower ID. Fertilizer, uric acid, different types of vegetation and other minerals that cause premature oxidation (rot) of the coin....... will dictate lower ID's of Indian Head pennies. So far............ Indians that produced a ID of '54' (or lower) once out of the ground....... and in a 'all variables removed' air-test............ are Indians that you do not want to keep. Too far rotted........... to the point of unidentifiable.

Ironically, I find the 1902 Indian Head penny to be the most 'batch inconsistent' ......... metallurgically ........ as far as composition is concerned; hence, most of my 1902 Indians present the largest ID 'span' .... in a clean/open air-test.

Most of my Indians were found in Florida dirt. Most are in surprisingly good condition. I do not see much of a corrosion differential between my 1865 Indians..... vs...... 1905 Indians. Most of my Indians are in the 1900's............. with 1907 being the highest volume recovered. Then.................. logically.................... the next highest group of Indians are in the 1890's date range.......... with 1896 being the highest volume. Then.................... logically...................... the next group is 1880's Indians. Then 1870's...... then 1860's. This is due to two primary reasons. Lower mintage ................ and................. the older Indians are just out of detectable range.............. with current-day available technology. I have only dug one 1908 and one 1909 Indian Head penny.

Another interesting/noteworthy mention: In 2004................. 3 hurricanes blasted through Florida.............. about 1 week apart from each other.............. and removed approximately 11' - 14' depth of sand off of a local beach. I found just over 300 older coins on the beach. All of the coins were silver (Barber's and Seated's). Only 1 Indian Head penny! And it was corroded so badly....... it was nearly unidentifiable. Where were all of the rest of the pennies! Silver stood the test of time........ (and salt corrosiveness)................... and the copper coins disintegrated. The silver coins that came out of the salt water...... were black and frosted/sand-blasted. The silver coins that were ripped out of the dry dunes............ were 'silver' color....... and looked like the day they were lost.

In my Florida dirt............. silver Half Dimes mimic the ID of 1890's - 1900's Indian Head pennies. Silver Trimes ID quite a bit lower.

The corrosion factor has a lot of variables. Here's two IH pennies found in the same valley a few miles apart. One is an 1891 and very corroded, the other is an 1864 and it's in beautiful shape, both dug from sandy loamy soil in an arid environment. The difference? One was on the side of a hill that drains well, and the other in a valley floor where the ground can get boggy in the winter :

Congratz Tom on the milestone!! Quite an accomplishment!!

And Brain, that is great info on coin condition!

300 Indians!
Congratulations Tom!

The old CZ and the new F75 duo still sounds like THE team for an avid coin hunter.

I always admire your focus. Probably time for a new article on the front page? Something that can also be included in Fisher World News/Fisher intelligence? The new people coming into the hobby need motivational, educational material and the written word still conveys somethings better than watching youtube exhibitions. Your Fisher Intelligence articles have always been better motivational and educational reads than what is found in many metal detector magazines. I, for one, would like to see you continue to add to these and I would like to see them more readily available than on just your website.

HH
Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2015 06:16PM by Mike Hillis.

Hi Mike H.

It is 'time constraints' that limit/restrict my abilities to add to the home-page of this web-site. Also........ very few people read the articles on the home web-site......... as most folks simply come to this forum instead. First Texas/Fisher did not see any monetized/added-value in the Fisher Intelligence campaign; hence, discontinued. Over the past few years......... I've had about a dozen high-value "Epiphany Moment" experiences that would help all.
I'm doing the best I can....... in my time-restricted capacity!

Tom D stated; "very few people read the articles on the home web-site"...

Tom, I'll bet that the majority of members listed have read the articles at least twice. That also means more have read the articles than post on the forum. Just a gut hunch from me.

Tom, I hear you about time constraints/limitations. I'd like to post more but I'm lucky to get a chance just to pop in and read.

I confess to having all your articles in my personal detecting library so I can review them offline. I only look at your home page for new stuff.

The good news is that Fisher still has your Fisher Intelligence articles on their website. Also, under the links section, they also provide a link to this place.

HH
Mike

Tom D,
I have all your articles in my Evernote app, so they are readable on my PC, laptop, phone, or ipad.....whenever I need a refresh which is often. Same with a bunch of posts from here. That way I can be anywhere with no Internet and get to them.

Wow you really covered indian head pennies old and new..All I know without going into specifics is the real old ones read into the pull tab range and corroded or crusty ones
really differ on a metered unit. Once hunted an old baseball field of the 1901 braves and in one hunt walked away with 10 of them so location also comes into play rel finding them...