Questions...

Keith's thread on the waterproof Makro brought up an interesting concept, that of sealed rechargeable batteries. It's become commonplace in cell phones but I think the Deus is the only metal detector to use this approach.

For the purposes of argument, assume we're talking about a performance detector in the $600-$1000 range, i.e., Makro/T2/MXT class, but fully waterproof, i.e. AT-pro. My questions are:

1. Would you be willing to buy a detector that has no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

2. What is the minimum acceptable run time on a normal charge? What is a (realistic) desired run time?

3. Would you be willing to buy wireless headphones that have no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

Thanks,
Carl

Certainly the ability to replace a rechargeable battery in an expensive unit would be a minus in my mind..Seems like some last for years while others have a short lifespan..

Working on a new project Carl?!? Best of luck on it!

Would salt water beaches be part of the design?

1. Would you be willing to buy a detector that has no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?
Sure as long as the replacement cost isn't way out of line <$70 and battery life should be at least a couple of years. Having used diving flashlights and surf rated watches I wonder why something can't be designed with a screw cap and o-ring for the battery compartment.

2. What is the minimum acceptable run time on a normal charge? What is a (realistic) desired run time?
5-6 hours and I'm worn out.

3. Would you be willing to buy wireless headphones that have no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?
Sure. Same question on using a screw cap design to seal the battery compartment.

I guess a big question is how waterproof does a machine need to be? Is it meant for rain or messing around on a beach or in a creek (<10 feet) or diving?

If you're looking at a fully waterproof machine, it would be worth considering cordless charging (inductive coupling, like some electric toothbrushes).
If you choose to have a replaceable Li-Ion pack, don't invent your own, try and use an existing format, there's lots to choose from. Eg. digital camera ones, older models were larger and more capacious. One that springs to mind is the Fuji NP-60 (single cell, 1200mAh), but there's twin-cell types, too. An NP-60 could power a T2 for 12-15 hours, my estimate.
Regarding headphones with sealed power: the user has to have some worthwhile means of assessing the state-of-charge of the battery. Not just a low-batt LED, or a beep in your ear every 10 secs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 05:28PM by Pimento.

Not crazy about sealed batteries in anything. Didn't upgrade cell phone to latest version of Samsung Galaxy S6 because of sealed battery.

1. Would you be willing to buy a detector that has no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?
Only if manufacturer would replace cheaply and in a timely manner. Realistically, probably would not buy unless it is ground breaking technology on part of detector.

2. What is the minimum acceptable run time on a normal charge? What is a (realistic) desired run time?
12 hours minimum.

3. Would you be willing to buy wireless headphones that have no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?
See answer to question 1.

Minelab SD, GP, GPX, and now GPZ users have never had any options but sealed rechargeable batteries. I am sure most CTX users empty the sealed rechargeable battery although having the AA backup option is nice. The only real issue is the quality of the battery. Nobody needs another XT18000 that comes with a lousy NiMH battery that dies and leaves old units useless. Newer style batteries are much more reliable and I went from avoiding to now trying to use nothing but rechargeable batteries. I have rechargeable sets for every detector I use. I tend to prefer detectors that use AA batteries however, and that leave the choice of battery to me. The problem with sealed batteries is they are often proprietary design and so limited availability and higher priced.

On board batteries aren't an issue, small connectors where dust and grit get in are!
Sealed with those tiny rubber gaskets is a real outdoor joke.

Outdoor wireless module that serves as a powercube for the detector. Only one thing to charge when you get home.
Detector lives in the truck, hook up the module as you drive to and from the hunt site.

Just thinking out loud.

HH
Johnb

Yes, 10hr min 20hr desired, Yes

the Yes's are with a 5 year transferable warranty on at least the battery



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 06:54PM by detectingMO.

1. Yes, but life span and cost/ease of replacement is a big concern. Also charging port durability needs to be built for the long haul. No USB types that wear out. As pimento said perhaps wireless is a better option. A port is just one more thing to wear out.

2. 12 hours or better, with a reasonably accurate battery meter. Some machines leave much to be desired in the meter dept.

3. See concerns in post 1. Wireless head phones are a much bigger deal than a coil, but unfortunetly just one more thing to go bad. If there was a sealed jack or something on the phones where you had the option of adding a cord for the sake of being able to use them that may be the best of both worlds.

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minelab SD, GP, GPX, and now GPZ users have never
> had any options but sealed rechargeable batteries.

Yes, but those are cable-attached and when the battery dies you can plug a fresh one in and keep hunting. I'm specifically thinking about internal to the detector, like Deus. When the battery dies, you're done til it's recharged.

The reason I ask is I once took a Deus hunting and the battery died way before I did, and I was quite annoyed. Fortunately, I had backup detectors, but it gave me a bad taste for internal rechargeables so I've never promoted the idea. However, I saw a number of positive comments for this approach, and wondered what the broader view was.

FWIW, 10 hrs min and 20 hrs typical is my ideal. This is what my phone does, and it's got me trained pretty well to keep it charged.

I personally always think twice when a device uses sealed batteries (sealed in the device...that is). It makes perfect sense for a water machine, but I always have concerns in the back of my mind about when the batteries go bad. Maybe some sort of dirt cheap factory battery replacement warranty (for an extended time period)? I know that would make me feel more at ease about spending money.

1. Would you be willing to buy a detector that has no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

Only if it can out perform the ones I already have. (Etrac, V3i, F75, CZ3D, AT Pro) and probably would not buy one used if the warranty was not transferable.


2. What is the minimum acceptable run time on a normal charge? What is a (realistic) desired run time?

12 Hours


3. Would you be willing to buy wireless headphones that have no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

Only if they have a good warranty, would not buy a used pair unless the warranty was transferable.

I would be more than willing to buy a sealed battery detector for Water Hunting..

Battery's RIGHT NOW are way more advanced than 18 months ago......

DEUS has shown battery reliability ...I never hear complaints on the forums about having to replace batts...The DEUS has been the guinea pig sort of in proving a battery can last now days...I think the DEUS uses a off the shelf pack at 3.6 volts but I could be wrong on that..

And maybe it should be in some way in the same box but seperately sealed from the main electronic's.. maybe a hatch door on the housing thats just for the Battery...battery wears out we can open that slot up and replace with just a socket plug.. maybe replace the rubber seal when we replace the battery....Offer a kit..

Like Pimento suggested ( and great idea Pimento) have it be a magentically coupled charging system ...this way a emergency field charger could be attached.. maybe 2- AA's and keep you hunting...

Opening and cloing a case constantly to me is not a safe bet...Sand and grit and such WILL GET IN eventually at some point.

I would not be the least bit worried if the system is right and there is a backup ability in an emergency..

15 hours should take care of battery life...more than sufficient..

Wireless headphones...Not my thing so I could only give biased feedback..actually all wireless to me is unneccesary and more of a selling point than a need..Im not fond of the DEUS being wireless..the wireless aspect bother's me more than a sealed battery..

I like a hardwired link myself..

The magentic thing has me wondering...what if you could build a interface so that it could be under lexan and be controlled Via a stylus with magnetic tip...No way for water to get in around contol pads like on the AT-PRO,,,Just dont loose your stylus in the filed LOL!

Keith


P.S.
My mother has a stimulator in her back and to turn it on you touch a magnet to the skin...to charge to you lay a pad across your back...

Battery good for a decade they said..Battery is the size of a domino..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2015 02:51AM by Keith Southern.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, but those are cable-attached and when the
> battery dies you can plug a fresh one in and keep
> hunting. I'm specifically thinking about internal
> to the detector, like Deus. When the battery dies,
> you're done til it's recharged.
>
> The reason I ask is I once took a Deus hunting and
> the battery died way before I did, and I was quite
> annoyed. Fortunately, I had backup detectors, but
> it gave me a bad taste for internal rechargeables
> so I've never promoted the idea. However, I saw a
> number of positive comments for this approach, and
> wondered what the broader view was.
>
> FWIW, 10 hrs min and 20 hrs typical is my ideal.
> This is what my phone does, and it's got me
> trained pretty well to keep it charged.

No battery system would be a deal breaker if the performance was superior.
My wife's phone has her trained well also and she carries a small pre-charged battery pack in case it dies on her that gives her a quick charge if needed. Deus has the same option I believe that 0perates off of a couple of AAs for a limited time. You had "backup detectors" with you , why not a small back up battery like she does? Obviously , not the ultimate solution but at least it's a loincloth if you get caught with your pants down.

I do not like to be at the mercy of anything......The more options... the happier I will be....read fully into that.

No
At least 8hrs
No
Technology has moved on
No more sealed batteries
Apple have pissed me off for more years than I care to remember!!

Great topic Carl!

1. Would you be willing to buy a detector that has no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

Yes

2. What is the minimum acceptable run time on a normal charge? What is a (realistic) desired run time?

Needs to be able to run a full day, so 12 hours min. run time would be ideal. Shouldn't be too difficult, I can run a set of rechargeable AA's in my F75, T2 or Racer for a good 30 hours before they require recharging.

3. Would you be willing to buy wireless headphones that have no option for replaceable batteries (sealed rechargeable only)?

Yes, but only if they don't have lag. I believe the Whites V3i and Dues are good examples of solid wireless headphone technology regarding lack of audio lag.

Issue of cost.... type of battery, size and weight. Also we wouldnt be able to take advantage of any after market battery improvements. Maybe reduce the number of batteries. I personally never had much issue with factory rechargeables..... except most never brought them out of the dark ages updating them as batteries improved.

Most of the guys I hunt with are out there 5 to 9 hours in the water.

Wireless phones ..... arent the best in nose deep water from what I understand. So why the added expense......we are talking waterproof...in the water right?

1. Yes. With stipulation of 3-year minimum life-cycle........ with nominal fee factory replacement.... and for 10-years past product life-cycle.
2. 5-hour minimum. 11-hour nominal.
3. Not applicable. (Don't like wireless headphones...... or coils).

dewcon4414 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wireless phones ..... arent the best in nose deep
> water from what I understand. So why the added
> expense......we are talking waterproof...in the
> water right?

Wireless doesn't work in water, so they would be for land use.

A sealed internal battery that can be charged externally is a very smart design and avoid lots of problems. Even better is the new technology in solid-state batteries developed by MIT and Samsung; it supposedly can be fully charged in less than a minute. So, with the emerging battery technology it is likely the Li-on will be a thing of the past, like NiMH batteries are today.

So, design the detector around one of the new quick-charging ultra-long-lasting, super dense battery designs and make sure the user never messes with batteries again. Oh, and make sure the external magnetic induction charger that slides along the outside has an integral solar panel for charging on the fly out in the woods or field (or beach). It'll charge up the detector to full in less than a minute - and you're back detecting for another 10+ hours.

If the permanently attached headphones need batteries make sure it's designed with those quick-charge batteries too (and put a solar-panel strip across the head strap - they charge as you hunt. But make sure the headphones you choose are phenomenal, with adjustable vol and tone controls, and fit comfortably (and make sure the cord is long enough to maneuver with the detector on the ground).

Lastly, when you design the waterproof coil, make it thin and flat so it whips and cuts through the water like a knife.

It's all just too obvious.

I know it wasn't a question, but I totally agree with Johnnyanglo on coil design. Something that is aerodynamically (hydro?) neutral so that there's no lift or dive when sweeping side-to-side underwater. Also...somehow it doesn't want to suction attach itself to the wet sand when beach hunting and you sweep too low.

I forgot to comment on run-time for batteries. I'm thinking 6 hours or so with some sort of mobile quick charge option.

Headphones...I'm fine with wireless headphones. I actually like them quite a bit.

Look at the new Detector Pro diver model. It uses a sealed lithium ion battery that can only be recharged. Good to 40 hours.

The Blisstool was that way in regard to the battery. In my opinion, that was one of the big negatives of that unit. A lady at the spring DIV hunt had one and her battery let go on her during the first day of a 3 day hunt. She had a backup detector that kept her hunting and not at the hotel but with her primary machine dead in the water, she didn't do so well.

Charging ports. Others have mentioned the ports wearing out. I've had 3 cellphones this has happened to since 2009. The phones are still good and the batteries too...but the ports are so worn the batteries can't be charged.

Battery life...anything over 10 hrs is going to be more than enough for most everybody. You have to figure that 99% of people are complaining about weights of detectors these days...how they can only swing a 3 pound detector for a couple hours and they are done. Some people make a huge scene over a coil that might weigh 1 or 2 OUNCES more than another one. Lol...those guys like that aren't gonna be hunting 10 or 12 hrs straight ever in their life. They might go on a hunt and actually swing a detector for 30 mins and then stop and complain to their buddies about not finding anything for the next 2 hrs. Then come home and gripe about how TV shows have ruined detecting...just can't find anything anymore.

Carl,

As long as the warranty extends to at least 5 years, that's important.

Teknetics had the S/T with same type of sealed battery approach, cost them dearly. Of course, that was 20 plus years ago rechargeable batteries have improved since, and so has waterproof components.

Blisstool has a sealed rechargeable battery, last 40-50 hours that's one of major contributors for me using Blisstool. If possible, try to get the longest battery usage if you go with a sealed rechargeable battery setup.

Also, as a backup you can provide a backup battery that plugs into the charger port if the sealed battery dies out in the field. For emergency purposes this would be great, can even be waterproof backup battery or for land usage?
Paul (Ca)

YOu are right...... it needs to have high capasity that charges quickly where each cell is checked...... and Des you think apple pisses you off.......every time i used to grab the Xcal with no light on that cheap charger id mumble. Now a good many of us have upgraded to the Maxxpack 1600s with the fast charger...... with a light. Sure would be nice thou to have a battery pack with fewer batteries required. Carl.... i was aware of the wireless phones..... just yanking your chain. Not enough real water machines being produced. In the water i have no problem with connected phones its kind of a theather in case it gets away from you.

Geotech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Herschbach Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Minelab SD, GP, GPX, and now GPZ users have
> never
> > had any options but sealed rechargeable
> batteries.
>
> Yes, but those are cable-attached and when the
> battery dies you can plug a fresh one in and keep
> hunting. I'm specifically thinking about internal
> to the detector, like Deus. When the battery dies,
> you're done til it's recharged.
>
> The reason I ask is I once took a Deus hunting and
> the battery died way before I did, and I was quite
> annoyed. Fortunately, I had backup detectors, but
> it gave me a bad taste for internal rechargeables
> so I've never promoted the idea. However, I saw a
> number of positive comments for this approach, and
> wondered what the broader view was.
>
> FWIW, 10 hrs min and 20 hrs typical is my ideal.
> This is what my phone does, and it's got me
> trained pretty well to keep it charged.


Hi Carl,

Oops, my bad. More proof reading comprehension declines with age!

But I was headed down right path. The fact is most serious prospectors are charging their detector every night. Now, like many prospectors I would consider the idea of a battery sealed into the detector to be anathema. But I have to look at reality.

With the Minelab SD and GP detectors there was the 6V sealed lead-acid battery. It worked pretty darn well but there were some reliability/breakage issues and so having a spare at hand was pretty much a necessity. In particular run times declined with battery age and care, or the lack thereof.

With the GPX Minelab introduced a superb Li-Ion battery. It was lighter, charged faster, and bullet proof. It also lasted two short days and was near impossible to run out in a single day. I had a spare but it never got used. Just plug in every night, no worries.

Now I am running a GPZ. Must have around 500 hours on it. I use about 8 hours a day actual detecting time but sometimes longer. I have run it dead twice - maybe three times? That takes about ten hours and quite frankly is just telling me time to quit fr sure. I do again have a spare battery but again I am finding I do not really need it. Still slightly more capacity of 12 hours would be good not only for those rare extra long days but to make up for some possible degradation of the battery as it ages.

So reality land is I am using a detector every day (just back from seven straight days) that all I do is plug in every night, and battery reliability is now such I really do not worry about it. And I always, always have a spare backup detector available just in case anyway.

So I am ready to concede I might just have to get over my bias against detectors with a built in battery. The key would be A. very high quality reliable battery, no cutting corners there and B. at least a 12 hour run time. Should be easy with a VLF, a little bit less so with a PI though my ATX seems to do well enough with 8 AA NiMH high capacity batteries.

I have to admit though on the DEUS the whole battery thing was a turn off for me. Just too much not only charging the detector control box but also coil and headphones. Any one of which goes dead and now you are out of business. That seems excessive. I will never be a fan of rechargeable wireless coils. And the charger attachments were just to dainty for me - whatever it is needs to be more robust than that used by XP.

Still, overall the concept is not very compelling for dry land detecting. Even now my detector tends to stay in the rig all night. I just pop the battery and bring it in to charge every evening. I would be an easier sale on the idea for underwater detectors where eliminating every leakage possibility is paramount.