Are U.S. companies falling behind...

With the influx of all of the new out of country units one wonders are they superior or are we just looking for something different....????

Falling is being to kind if you look at the company that makes the racer they are starting their sales in the US full steam ahead. They respond to us in a positive way, they fix problems, they are designing new detectors based on feedback from us the buyer. And the US is just doing nothing new nothing different. My detectors are from Turkey and France nothing from the US and I don't really care anymore our hobby is shrinking and we are getting land taken from us so it's all about being able to hunt as much as we can to save history from land being dug up that we can't hunt but they can ruin..Don't get me started

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

its a question of time till Chinese will produce their "Racer" at 250 USD ...

Well there are several ways of looking at the issue.

There are a bunch of newer units coming from overseas...and that is appeasing to the crowd that wants something new every year or two. But are they really better than anything that has been out in the last 30 years? Ergonomically...yes. The newer machines are lighter weight and better balanced. Power consumption...yes...gone are the days of multiple C and D cell batteries, and in most cases of detectors...gone are the days of using 8 or more AA batteries too. So all that is a plus.

But performance wise? That is very debatable. The only real advancement I can see that has been made, has been in target recovery time...aka, unmasking ability. For those hunting in iron laden sites...this is a huge advancement and certainly has its place.

When it comes to accurate target ID...none of the overseas detectors I have used that are currently available have been any better than the US companies offerings of 20-30 years ago. That is fact. That's not to say that they don't have anything new coming down the pike that might change my mind. But as of now... An analog Whites 5900 from the 1990s is still more accurate than any of the newer over seas machines, and it gets better depth on top of that. The Fisher CZ platform is still the most favored coin hunting platform to a lot of people....including the newer offerings from Fisher. Minelab is not a US based company...but has been a household name to detectorists in the US for a number of years. And there are huge camps of people that say the FBS technology machines (15 yrs old technology) is still the best on the market for finding coins, especially silver. And most of the people on this forum that are fluent in FBS machines...still favor the original Explorer XS which was the first generation of the whole thing.

So it comes down to the old saying about not having just one tool in the tool box...a well rounded hunter will have more than one tool. The new over seas machines are setting new standards for unmasking performance and listening to the wants of customers. There is no denying or arguing against that. A mechanic with just a straight head screw driver can do a lot of things...but there are also a lot of things he can't do or wouldn't be able to do if that was the only tool he had. As far as working a site for old coins and needing depth and decent ID for modern trash....I don't think any of them on today's market can beat a Minelab or Fisher CZ for cherry picking old coins at depth. But if the site is laced with iron...those machines will struggle quite a bit, and you'll start to see the muscle of unmasking that will shine with other machines. It's great to have options and no be limited to just one machine.

FWIW (which isn't much) I agree with Dan. Lighter machines with better ergonomics in some cases but still somewhat splitting hairs performance-wise. I previously thought the market was saturated with manufacturers but there have been some smaller nimble players hit the market so there must still be money to be made. I have wondered if established companies have lost some motivation. There have been some apparent cases of mis-management but there is no point in bringing that up. FTP is apparently in the fight for market share. I think to truly shake things up there has to be some serious tech advances. Only the engineers can clue us in if anything is in the works, but they won't tip their hats for good reason. There was some rumor about a hybrid VLF/PI type technology being worked up but who really knows? For me I really appreciate where some of the newer machines have gone with the lighter weights and less battery. Plus the unmasking like Dan said.

I like the analogy of having the tools to do the job and any serious detectorist will have several whether it be US or Foreign and yes throw in multiple coils also.

We all have our favorites old or new...US or Foreign and whatever works comes to mind...

Incremental changes to existing platforms is all we have to look forward to unles a real breakthrough occurs. The T2 set the single freq. detector standard when it was introduced. The later introductions from Garrett and now Nokta are basically re-statements (not copies) of the T2. Likewise the F75'and F70 from Fisher.

Sharp DD coils, improved audio feedback and progressive improvements in EMI resistance are about all that has happened since. It' snot for a lack of trying, but the basic VLF IB technology has gone about as far as it can go.

Multi frequency was pioneered by Minelab and done also by Whites and Fisher, but here again, the limits of the current state of the art have been reached.

So what is a company to do? New materials and designs for the chassis - wireless data transfer, user programmability, field updatable software, all are being tried by various companies, not always with equal success (no software updates for CTX in 2.5 years, Useless Nokta Bluetooth based wireless phones, complicated and confusing V3 setting options).

Another path is to steadily improve existing units, often without public announcement. For example the new Classic T2 is supposedly the same as the original, but several users including Monte report that it is quieter and more stable than the original.

Total world sales of metal detectors is probably in the many hundreds of thousands per year. The money we spend on the so called "top end" is a significant but probably small part of,the cash flow. If you want to stay in the business for the long run, you need to sell a sizable portion of those hundreds of thousands of units per year. This leads a company like First Texas to produce dozens of models in three different brands to address the world market.

Can you imagine what a market will open when public interest in metal detectors takes off in China and India with their billions of people,and thousands of years of history? The next couple of decades could see detector sales increase exponentially - the challenge will be to capture the market before local producers do.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

The internet has changed how WE View detectors..

How many would TRY a Bulgarian machine.?

How many would try a Turkish machine.?

How many would try a French Machine..?

Hardly anyone...They would not even Know they were available...a decade ago I only knew of a few foreign units...

Now I know of dozens...

HOW????? the internet..And ability to easily locate them and get hold of them..

And also we have people willing to try them and report what they do on the forums...

How many Right now would go out on a limb and buy a forieign machine if they did not have Youtube videos and Forums etc to ease their uncertainty???

Thats the future of detecting... US!!!! we can make a difference ....We are the Future of the American Company's and aslo the rest of World companys...We HAVE A VOICE..We can steeer the ship towards our furture horizon...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

liaso Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> its a question of time till Chinese will produce
> their "Racer" at 250 USD ...

Personally I dont think the Turkish Companies will be taking their stuff to China to be made anytime soon -

It appears those coporations that have done,seem to be having problems with counterfeits

Who would have guessed?

The main difference I have found with using Turkish units is not that they do perform well because they do - its the fact that both Makro & Nokta have a comprehensive package when it comes to everything detecting -

New product announcements
Marketing communicating with forums
Product Launches
Listening to customers and implimenting changes
Fast & Fantastic Support - in many cases you dont have to wait for them to recieve the faulty part before shipping your one out
Products have a lot of thought put in to them for people with dissabilities
Build Quality is the way the USA used to make things
Comprehensive Packages yet some big brand companies wont even supply an arm strap

and at the end of the day they make YOU feel important to them and NOT like some liability they have to sort out

Yep I agree - I think the US are being left behind but its not the equipment, its the package



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 09:17PM by rustic charm.

Hey RC - here you go again with Your "blame the victim" mantra about companies having problems with Chinese clone/pirate machines because they moved production to China. Who do you allege has done this?

As far as I know, Minelab moved their production to a US owned company - Plexus - in Malaysia - which isn't China

First Texas has Chinese production of exactly one model, the Bounty Hunter Jr. The machines of theirs which have been pirated, the T2 and Gold Bug Pro have always been produced 100% in North America (some board level assembly work in Mexico and all design, engineering, assembly and test in El Paso) like all their other detectors - P.S. - I'm in favor of US jobs and FT provides hundreds of them in El Paso.

The reason that thieves in China spent money to copy Minelab and First Texas machines was to sell the contraband into the African Gold rush, mainly via Dubai.

Is there something you know that is different than this?

And as far as a complete package from a US company - check out the T2 brochure - the accessory package is a steal - rechargeable batteries with charger, covers, 5" coil backpack and hat for $150.

I like what XP and Nokta/Fors are doing. Fair competition is good for everyone.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 10:01PM by lytle78.

And yes Rick with all due respect you have your view which in most cases blames everyone else except the corporations who choose to manufacture offshore - I was simply responding to a post where a member stated that the Racer will eventually be made in China -

I dont think that will happen because I believe that both Makro & Nokta will continue to manufacture their products in Turkey not China -

I dont believe the corporate spin that its big bad China stealing everything the way you portray sir - Sure I dont like counterfeits like the next man but I dont expect every manufacturer to go running to China to keep production costs down like most corporations do these days -

Another reason I suppose to purchase a full and comprehensive package from a company that's honest & cares about it customers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 10:36PM by rustic charm.

Which metal detector manufacturers do you allege are "running off to China to keep their manufacturing costs down"?

As far as I know, with the exception of the Bounty Hunter jr. (Which is ALSO produced in the US as well) - no US metal detector manufacturers have had any production in China.

Garrett - Texas
Whites - Oregon
Tesoro - Arizona
First Texas - you guessed it - Texas.

And to take up your last statement above. Which of these companies do you reckon isn't in your words "honest and cares for its customers"?

These are hard working American companies putting out quality products. If you don't like them, please don't buy them, but your fact-free allegations are getting old.

I am impressed by Nokta, I have corresponded a good bit with MS Dilek and she does a great job in communicating with her customers. Others could learn from that. The fact that the Turkish lira is in the crapper helps them offer very attractive pricing.

XP products are impressive - I have owned 2 of their Deus detectors, and although I didn't quite come to love them as much as some, they are excellent and innovative machines.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

I have one modern digital metal detector, the MX5, the rest of my machines have knobs and toggle switches and they are my favorites. So foreign made machines don't count in my book, analog technology is the way I like my metal detectors. There is a certain joy when the needle locks on to a coin or relic, then to light up the target with a true threshold all-metal mode to shape and size up a target.

A good question Dan.

I've read the responses thus far to this question. Interesting to say the least.

This made in the USA. IMO only a slogan---sort of a gimmick of sorts.

Seriously is any detector completely made in the USA...i.e all components. DON'T think so.

I see the USA being priced out of the market.

US Autos had the same thing happen.----they no longer really offer in house pension plans etc. Hence US auto companies have been operating cheaper overall and more competitive as of late.

I haven't been in the detecting business as long as many of you here but I feel this is something that needs to be pointed out.

Minelabs machines, Deus as well. They both seem to have not had any bugs in them. I'm not talking about cosmetic bugs per se but inherent operation. Can't say that about many of the others. Makro and Nokta also seem to have no inherent bugs either.

Is it the testing and processes/components that the seemingly inherent bugless detector manufacturers perform/use????
I don't know exactly but there is something there I feel.

And the train is moving faster down the tracks than yesteryear from a performance/production standpoint.

All I can say is hold ON because we are all in for I HOPE an enjoyable ride.

I just hope some of the older detector manufacturers are part of the ride..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2015 02:02AM by tnsharpshooter.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which metal detector manufacturers do you allege
> are "running off to China to keep their
> manufacturing costs down"?
>
> As far as I know, with the exception of the Bounty
> Hunter jr. (Which is ALSO produced in the US as
> well) - no US metal detector manufacturers have
> had any production in China.
>
> Garrett - Texas
> Whites - Oregon
> Tesoro - Arizona
> First Texas - you guessed it - Texas.
>
> And to take up your last statement above. Which
> of these companies do you reckon isn't in your
> words "honest and cares for its customers"?
>
> These are hard working American companies putting
> out quality products. If you don't like them,
> please don't buy them, but your fact-free
> allegations are getting old.
>
> I am impressed by Nokta, I have corresponded a
> good bit with MS Dilek and she does a great job in
> communicating with her customers. Others could
> learn from that. The fact that the Turkish lira is
> in the crapper helps them offer very attractive
> pricing.
>
> XP products are impressive - I have owned 2 of
> their Deus detectors, and although I didn't quite
> come to love them as much as some, they are
> excellent and innovative machines.

Look I am not going to lock horns with you over this time and time again -

when you open up a discussion with "Hey RC - here you go again with Your "blame the victim" there is no point in even getting into it is there?

As for my answer to the posted question - Yes I believe the US is falling behind -



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2015 02:14AM by rustic charm.

OK -

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

It's great that there are many machines on the market as it keeps the competition alive and company's on their toes..... Our European offerings are coming fast and always pushing boundaries with new tech but nothing at the moment will break the mould.

I think I'm fair in saying a few big hitters have machines lined up but while they are still making good profits off their machines and they see no real threats to sales by others they are content..... For example the best selling machine in the world I feel is the Garrett Ace250, it's sells in vast numbers so why change a winning formula and given the time Garrett will come out with a machine that will change the game, whether true or false with what we've seen in this target imaging system machine from Garrett it might be the spark that makes other brands bring out their new tech if they feel a dent is being made to their sales.

But what I hear one of the big players has a machine ready and waiting but they have probably the most advanced machine on the market at the moment what's selling strong so they might aswell keep the sales of this machine going as when they bring out their new product the current machine will be less profitable to the company so once again why jump to soon.

Think it's a big game of chess and let's see who makes the first move in new technology and then a new generation of hobby detectors will follow from many.... The next year or so will get very interesting to say the least.

Yes there are machines that are from other countries that are better designed and hunt better then what we have in the states..I have had enough US made detectors to have an opinion just my thoughts but the US is lagging in a big way.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Why start a thread to start arguments?

Discrimination is the root of all evil.

[www.detecting101.co.uk]

PittsburghWill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why start a thread to start arguments?


I use what works. There are no arguments. I'm not brand loyal at all. I love "Made in the USA" as much as anyone. But they need to compete. I'm with Keith. The internet has opened our eyes to the world. What a wonderful feeling.

U.S companies have had it good,not much competition, so they trickle improvements out a little at a time.
The machines we have now,the technology existed several years ago.
If they gave us the best it would take them several years to come up with the next great machine.

So we get spoon feed small bites every year to keep sale up.
The foreign companies are trying to take traction in our market and aren't playing by U.S trickle feed rules that all the U.S manufactures adhere to.
Only when they get established will they slow down and break out the little babu spoons.