Since it's all about the audio

what do you all think of the audio options we have with todays detectors? I just read an article that got me thinking about this.

[www.upi.com]

Sure it's about artificial arms but the response from test subjects was very thought provoking.

Back on subject, what type of audio keeps you "engaged.. challenged ect" while detecting?

We have low tones for iron and higher tones for non-ferrous, throw in VCO audio and others. Me personally I like the old analog type audio where the good sounds come through the pops and clicks of partially disced iron. Not neccessarily just a beep but something different from the normal iron sounds that grabs your attention. To me THAT is engaging. Keith I bet you know what I'm talking about.

Tom Z

If I'm relic hunting........I like to hear ALL metal that is in the ground....underneath the coil.......and as a low-tone. Then......a tone-break higher tone for ANYTHING above the Disc setting. That is all. Keep it simple and minimize fatigue.

Anyone remember hunting with a BFO? It gave a constant tone which changed in pitch (rather than volume) when you hit something. That used to work pretty well for me, although I wouldn't trade my multi-tones for it.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I'm relic hunting........I like to hear ALL
> metal that is in the ground....underneath the
> coil.......and as a low-tone. Then......a
> tone-break higher tone for ANYTHING above the Disc
> setting. That is all. Keep it simple and minimize
> fatigue.

I find (at times anyway) the constant low tones of accepted iron to be more fatiguing than listening for good sounds among the noise of partially rejected iron. but I guess I'm in the minority anymore! LOL

Can't wait to try the G2 out. Keith mentioned about iron coming in above the disc setting on the GB Se as having some kind of 'rolling tones' rather than clean beeps. That sounds good to me!

Now we need to get back the ability to determine "coin size" responses from the length of the beep like on the 1235/1236X2.

Tom Z

I have a tendency to 'mostly' mentally tune-out the low tones of iron..............and................any audio 'change'...........away from this low tone.......will catch my attention.

Tom, if like me, you can assume that most remaining targets aren't easy "no brainers", I always examine them before I dig with AM (either initially or secondarily depending on the site/trash/targets, etc) and that audio tells me everything I want to know in order to make my dig decision. That is the "pro audio" feature I need and want.

All metal AT is a Pro option that tells soo much about those co-located iffy targets. The Omega is the first detector I have used in my short career where routine use of all metal has become the norm.

In answer to Tom D, I never had any problem whatsoever listening to the iron tonoes on the CZ's. however the newer faster responding detectors can at times be too much. I once asked Dave J about the possibility of allowing an adjustable notch for the iron range whereby you could chose to eliminate the audio from the busier site signals, whether small nails or whatever. A narrow notch window would suffice.

Tom

Yes, , , , most sites we like to hunt.......have been detected before.............so.......the cherry-pickers are gone; which, in turn ....... means that only the handicapped targets remain. This is where more raw audio data becomes a necessity..............and........subsequently........ a seasoned/astute ear is needed. You can develop an 'ear' for this .... whilst in all-metal mode and Disc '0'. It's a rough learning-curve.....but possible.

Yes, the F75/T2 platform.................with Disc '0' (and multi-tones)...running wide-open is VERY noisy. Only the monomaniac/crazy/psycho's can handle this! This means......you are brain-dead on the low-tones.

when trying to massage signals out of trashy environ's...but I believe those days are fast coming to an end....But all hope is not lost!!I am hearing some great audio on the GBSE that's reminiscent of some older analog audio.....I

(I have heard some audiophiles state that they could tell the difference in a analog type recording and a C.D. but that was years ago and I bet they would have a hard time discerning now days...)

I believe as more time goes by the choppy type on-off audio will too phase out..the GBSE audio is different than a T-2. omega.F-75..It has some pretty good nuance to the target..Might be the dual processor starting to show itself??? Its the first digital machine I have had that I can coax signals out of the ground with pure audio nuanced type hunting!!But it's the latest offering too! is it as good as say 1236 in iron well yes and no...audio still lacking the pureness of analog but it being coupled with lightning fast target response,excellent depth,great affinity for low conductors.ability to set tone break's,fast grab,,etc,,,,,,,Well I think anyone can see we are getting better product than ever before!!( No telling what the future hold's)

Good Post Jackpine!!

Keith

the GBSE has some great attributes for the way a target hit's above the disc setting...Sort of old school type response if you will.... like it's trying to take some of the signal out of the accepted target by conductance?? ( for lack of better word's)

Big iron tat might read 70 on the i.d. just don't sound like a good clean 70..splattery, washy,raspy,chopped,diced,Sliced..( Wait a minute starting to sound like waffle house hash browns)

But yes the audio can really talk to you on the GBSE....Now it has a great affinity for tin but I am starting to tell it more and more by audio because I.D. locks and doesn't move so audio is the only option and it's doable for sure... Crown caps it loves them but I can call them every time now just by the dead lock 75 and the audio is just plain dead tingy sounding not crisp...


Audio has really come up on the latest FT machine!

Good quality headphones seem to be a must though to pick out the nuanced signal...Not the Killer b or timber type but the true stereo phones ...My pocket book only allows Koss but they sound excellent ...Actually there the Koss Titanium series .. Koss Pro3AA Titanium


If you can get into some high end phones I am sure that the signal's would have more variance ??? Or maybe not Mine are at 60 ohm's maybe tha'ts pretty close to replicate the true audio???


Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2010 01:05AM by Keith Southern.

it as important to know what you don't want to dig as it is what you want to dig....How else would we be able to hunt a site properly if we cant tell how much of a rejected target is lying in the way....

That was one of the reasons I always liked the Nautilus DMC-2b.. you could dissect a site with the hear everything in the ground target report...

Lot's of nails (Slow down drop disc lower)
Bigger iron(Dig it up and remove it permanently then rehunt)

Yes rejected items are a must

Good post!!

Keith

BuckeyeBrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, if like me, you can assume that most
> remaining targets aren't easy "no brainers", I
> always examine them before I dig with AM (either
> initially or secondarily depending on the
> site/trash/targets, etc) and that audio tells me
> everything I want to know in order to make my dig
> decision. That is the "pro audio" feature I need
> and want.

Help me out a little with the AM use in a trashy environment with the F75/T2 LTD/SE ... It seems that most places where there are still good targets but masked for sure... AM gives me an awful lot of sounds and they all seem to sound alike... I have to check the screen constantly when I hunt like this... is there something in the AM audiop that I am missing?
It does seem like AM BP is quieter than 0 Disc BP.. but still AM tones all sound alike to me. These sort of sites are, to me, where the E-TRAC shines in TTF with a minimum disc pattern... I get a peep of ferrous (high tone) on those masked targets, even if it is a one way signal... and the conductive number confirns that it is worth digging.
I can see where Tom's setting of disc=6 and one tone can help unmasking and even disc=0, once you identify where the common iron at the site hits and dig anything outside that range, lower or higher...but I am having a hard time understanding how AM audio can help with unmasking unless you have your eye constantly on the VDI numbers.

Thanks for helping me out,

Julien

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a tendency to 'mostly' mentally tune-out
> the low tones of
> iron..............and................any audio
> 'change'...........away from this low
> tone.......will catch my attention.

Tom that is true for me as well but the difference between partially disced iron bleeding thru and constant low tones to me at least, is that iron sounds become white noise whereas constant low tones become irritating. I think the difference lies in that the variations in sound (pops, clicks ect) can be mentally tuned out a lot easier than a constant mono tone.

Tom

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> when trying to massage signals out of trashy
> environ's...but I believe those days are fast
> coming to an end....But all hope is not lost!!I am
> hearing some great audio on the GBSE that's
> reminiscent of some older analog audio.....I
>
> (I have heard some audiophiles state that they
> could tell the difference in a analog type
> recording and a C.D. but that was years ago and I
> bet they would have a hard time discerning now
> days...)
>
> I believe as more time goes by the choppy type
> on-off audio will too phase out..the GBSE audio is
> different than a T-2. omega.F-75..It has some
> pretty good nuance to the target..Might be the
> dual processor starting to show itself??? Its
> the first digital machine I have had that I can
> coax signals out of the ground with pure audio
> nuanced type hunting!!But it's the latest offering
> too! is it as good as say 1236 in iron well yes
> and no...audio still lacking the pureness of
> analog but it being coupled with lightning fast
> target response,excellent depth,great affinity for
> low conductors.ability to set tone break's,fast
> grab,,etc,,,,,,,Well I think anyone can see we are
> getting better product than ever before!!( No
> telling what the future hold's)
>
> Good Post Jackpine!!
>
> Keith


Thanks for the 'audio' info on the GB SE Keith... Sounds good to me. While it may be hard to replicate the analog type sound in the new detectors, the direction the GB is taking may be the next best thing. I'm sure the engineers spend a lot of time on how the audio is presented and that we will see better things to come. perhaps Way Better!

Thanks again!

Tom

Julien I don't believe Brad is neccessarilly advocating using AM at sites with a lot of targets. Where it can be useful is dissecting out those iffy signals (is it iron falsing or non-ferrous next to iron?) to help make the dig, no dig decision.

Tom

BuckeyeBrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, if like me, you can assume that most
> remaining targets aren't easy "no brainers", I
> always examine them before I dig with AM (either
> initially or secondarily depending on the
> site/trash/targets, etc) and that audio tells me
> everything I want to know in order to make my dig
> decision. That is the "pro audio" feature I need
> and want.

Yes Tom, that is what I meant and thanks for chiming in. That's (if a site is say an extremely trashy park or a fairly "clean" relic field) why I worded my post around using AM either primarily (in the field) or secondarily (trashy park or whatever). Using AM tells me when I'm RIGHT over the target insuring the ID info is as accurate as possible, as well as the footprint (relative depth and size) of the target or if it's possibly co-located with another object which is rather common and necessary to know. Of course with almost all of the FT detectors having ID in AM, it's just that much more practical to use it as logic for one's choice to dig or not. Hope this makes it clearer for you Julien.

that is the absolute best audio only hunting detector I have ever used..the true all metal threshold based mode running in one ear for sizing,shaping,and depth perception..And the conventional disc running in the other ear just plain 1-tone is an awesome setup....You can tell alot with an all metal mode and when coupled together a the same time it's a hard machine to beat....you can even tell high mid and low conductors just by the way the disc signals in unison with the all metal...Deep all metal whispers beyond the disc circuit are always fun ...you better do some digging on those signals there way out of range of the disc depth!!!

I would run one now but in my ground the machine blows back a lot from mineral....If nautilus could design a DD coil that might change ....I could live with the weight issue just not the lack of mineral handling capabilities ....

Maybe one day FT will offer a dual mode and forget the iron grunt all together....Whites tried it with the MXT but it was never the same as the nautilus ...Close but not quite...

.

Keith Southern

My favorite all time audio with a detector is with the Nauty's dual mode. That's where I learned to really appreciate AM. All you need all at once...just don't get any better than that system. And I also agree that the White's approach and efforts was a "close but no cigar". The opportunity is still out there for someone to offer Nauty type audio in a lightweight package that can handle more diverse ground conditions.

Multi---scattered comments:

The MXT is a Dave Johnson doing's. (This should explain several things).

When a certain point (certain higher level) of masking is encountered...........watching the VDI numbers ... becomes moot. No data/intelligence gained. Whilst hunting nail-infested sites; you must become dependent (and skilled/experienced) at audio ONLY discernment/differentiation. It is not practical to hunt in all-metal mode whilst encountering carpets of nails.

With a F75 Disc setting of '6' and monotone....................yes..............the clicks/ticks/snap/crackle/pops...........vs...........a somewhat good, somewhat elongated audio response... poses high differentiability (read: non-fatiguing) easy hunting/usable data.

All-Metal mode with high Sens settings will always sound MUCH more stable (vs ID mode); yet, with one fairly major problem. Deep/weak targets will hardly be audible......due to modulated audio. Whereas/vs.......the ID mode with Disc '0'.....poses NO 'modulated' audio. A very weak signal will audibly be boosted to a loud/normal 'target acquired' response. Subsequently........this mode of hunting is VERY noisy........does indeed require astute/skilled ears; yet, can be very rewarding.