Audio only machines...

I have come to a point of thinking that if I put in the time, I may actually do better with an audio only machine... if it has a good audio with nuances. I have two. I have two, a SovereignGT and a Tejon and I suppose I could use any detector and just not look at the screen but it's not that easy... if it's there I waill look at it. I have just been thinking that just maybe... after a certain ammount of use in audio, ears, and brain only I may come up with more information than I would by using a VDI screen... I never use the confidence meter, I never use the depth meter, I look at the GB number but for no real purpose.. I do however rely too much on the VDI number and like someone recently said... I don't remember who, a VDI meter probably does more to discourage you from digging a target than it encourages you to dig a target... with the possible excepting on some of the programs on the V3 that say "DIG IT!" on almost every number, laff. Still, I am in a love/hate affair with the V3... and several other machines.

So I am really considering going to a good audio only machine. The GT is one and so is the Tejon...

Do you have any other machines that tell you a LOT of info through the audio? I suppose I could set any machine up to give me good audio and put a sock over the screen so Idon't look at it.

Another reason is that I have a bad problem with my cervical spine, that is the part between your shoulderblades and craning my neck constantly to look at some screens really causes my problems later. Especially the V3, the F75 LTD isn't as bad and I make finds with it in BP using the 5" coil where I no longer make finds.. but the VDI seems a bit unreliable, or I have not learned it yet...


Sorry to ramble but what machines do you think give the best audio so that one can work out everything else with the brain?

J

Been reading this forum for ages, thought I might as well register! Been a pleasure, thanks Tom and all you guys for the insightful posts. Like your videos Tom btw.

Jbow,

I was thinking this just yesterday. I hunted next to a 500 year old castle here in Germany and was using my Omega 8000 - I had it all the way open (was a bit jumpy at times - had to keep the GB right on to quiet it), max sensitivity, 1 discrimination (most of the time, but as high as 16)) and mode 2. GB was around 55-60. I got a good sounding target that read 92 on the VDI - ( I thought silver coin, but those are rare). But in VCO mode a lot can sound good. (I mean on shallower things as the sound hits so broad). So, I switched to mode 4 which just gives a beep. But, the beep was very very clear and sharp.. I said coin! (I checked the shape of the target in pinpoint mode, as usual, and it seemed pretty round or symetrical). I dug down with my Lesche about 4" and there on the surface at the bottom of the whole was a big (bigger than a silver dollar) 20 mark coin (It might be a token actually, still soaking it.) - not silver though. Anyway, I dug a few more targets and with each one I switched from mode 2 to mode 4. I called both coins I dug as that beep was just crisp and clear. The trash items had a bit of a roll to subtle squelch (can't describe the sound, but you might know what I mean) to them. BTW - This area is hit hard as some lady I was speaking to told me she often see's metal detectorists there. The Omega does really really well in iron. I was using the 11"DD.

I learned on a Nautilus IIB and that taught me (slowly and painfully) that sound is really where it is at. Anway, I can agree with you that sound gives you lots of information, but I don't hunt that much and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to tell a copper coin from a silver from a bronze, etc. That is where the VDI comes in. Also, the VDI is analogous to sound (on the Omega) in that if a beep is consistent and clear, often the numbers don't jump (are consistent). That wasn't the case with my T2.

I'm not sure how the Omega's sound compares to other machines but maybe some of you "old timers" can add a bit hear. I would imagine the Omega and T2 are right up there sound wise with any sound only machines, but...

edit - I'd like to add that if is only using one sense when detecting (e.g. hearing) that hearing could become awfully good and sensitive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2010 06:26PM by earthmansurfer.

Thanks for the reply and welcome.

I am really re-thinking some things right now... thanks for the help.

Julien

With all of the bells-n-whistles of today's modern metal detectors................only to find the extremely serious hunters reverting back to the basic beep-n-dig scenario. There's merit in this.

ALL detectors produce a 'learnable' audio. Even the highly preprocessed artificial intelligence of the CZ. Yet.............the closer the metal detector is to an all-metal mode....the greater the 'raw' (learnable) audio data.

With all of the tools of the F75...........I find myself (deliberately) in monotone.....and barely any Disc...........,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,............just enough to snap/crackle/pop the SMALL iron. There's a ton of intelligence in raw data. . . . yet, with today's high-pace society.....most folks do not have the time to learn this 'language'.

I've been finding myself not hunting as much, frustrated, not having as much fun as I used to... tired of tryingto figure out how to set a machine to work best where I am hunting and what i'm hunting for. I didn't have this problem when I used the SovereignGT and Tejon... and T2. It seems to me that the F75 LTD, while being a good machine, has an erratic, at best, VDI. The only two machines I have that have a solid, reliable VDI on deep targets are the SovereignGT and the E-TRAC... the latter only with the CO number.

I am just trying to get a grip and get the fun back. Trying to learn to use the V3 has really done a number on me. I try to like it and I do until I get out somewhere and try to use it. Then I start thinking that I am just doing something wrong... I just don't understand how to set something... but dang it... a detector shouldn't be that hard to set up and use. I had the same problem with the ExplorerSE for a long time until I finally gave up on conductive sounds and multi-tones. I never had a problem with the original F75 or T2. I may have missed some targets with the F and T from relying too much on on the VDI but I doubt it because when it doubt I dig. I dug a lot of cut nails, canslaw, and caps with the Sovereign because I always felt there was a slight chance that it might be something good but with a skewed VDI... never was though. I dig more surprising good targets when I use the Tejon than with anything else though... not sure why but I do.

I just wish the market for used detectors wasn't so bad... I want to sell some but I feel like I will take a beating on them if I sell now but am afraid if I don't sell now it may only get worse.

I am going to give the F75 LTD a bit more time but am going back to using the SovGT and Tejon more often. Going to keep using the E-TRAC and Omega and want to try a G2 after it is out for a few months.

Well, thanks for listening. Going detecting today...

Julien

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With all of the bells-n-whistles of today's modern
> metal detectors................only to find the
> extremely serious hunters reverting back to the
> basic beep-n-dig scenario. There's merit in this.
>
> ALL detectors produce a 'learnable' audio. Even
> the highly preprocessed artificial intelligence of
> the CZ. Yet.............the closer the metal
> detector is to an all-metal mode....the greater
> the 'raw' (learnable) audio data.
>
> With all of the tools of the F75...........I find
> myself (deliberately) in monotone.....and barely
> any
> Disc...........,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,............just
> enough to snap/crackle/pop the SMALL iron. There's
> a ton of intelligence in raw data. . . . yet, with
> today's high-pace society.....most folks do not
> have the time to learn this 'language'.

Julien.

No detecting is FUN without the fun..

I am also past the stage where the ultimate find is the goal, it is now only the big bonus of a FUN day.

Fun is the most important thing about detecting and a detector that gives you good sound to challege your brain has a much higher fun factor then a detector with scratchy sounds and a VDI that jumps like a kangaroo.

I agree with you that the sovereign has very good audio, it also has very good sensitivity and good depth potential if you know how to use it slow and low and know how to wiggle, or ehhh- trying to suck the signals out of the ground.

Depending on your sites there is a detector brand that will ad to your fun factor and that is the XP range. It has a tremendous sound vocabular and will be fun as hell for you if you detect fields for coins or relics. In Europe the XP goldmaxx is the most used because of 18khz and the recovery speed it has due to the high freq. For US relic detecting I think the XP G maxx will be good. It is the same as the Goldmaxx but operating at 4,8 khz instead of 18, giving it a slightly slower recovery speed but still giving you the sounds....

This detector is lacking a few things I feel important. It has a ground cancel but no treshold or all metal mode so you need to adjust your approuch to that. However it also has a good feature I think american manufacturers should pick up on and that is Iron Volume.... You can adjust the way you want to hear the targets BELOW your disc level. Combined with the disc control that goes up to about coke range it is a tool that makes your ears and brain very important and also satisfied...

Its pure fun...

I wouldnt use this detector in a park or at a beach though, it is a plain field relic detector that works best VS the opposition in heavy iron. And it is very good for a FUN factor detectorist of the old type.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 06:13PM by frnifo.

I've been following that XP Deus machine and it is turning some heads in Europe. Not because it's wireless so much, but due to the performance. It has 4 frequencies to choose from, from 4khz to 18khz. From what I have read it is amazing in Iron and has great sound, as was just mentioned regarding XP detectors. I might pick one up next year but want to see if Teknetics is going to release a high end coin machine first. You can adjust (amongst other things) the iron level, the response time on targets and just about anything you want. It has a light, clock built in, really nice unit. But it has 3 rechargable batteries, one in the headphones, one in the control box and one in the coil (which is where the brains are located - expensive coils!). It is just about as deep as the latest minelabs and that is with a smaller coil, it might be the deepest detector once they come out with a slightly bigger coil (The stock is 9" I believe). Too bad they can't be used in America due to the frequency of operation, not approved.

I went back out to that 500 year old castle today and listened to the sounds a lot again on my Omega. I also switched from d2 mode to d4 mode to listen to that beep as opposed to the modulated sound. Well, my "study" isn't 100% but is does seem that more times than not a good sounding target (in d4 mode) ends up being something worth digging for. I dug 3 round musket style bullets that hit at around 60-61. I also dug 3 pre 1900 coins. The first one I found was silver and very small, dated 1864 - vdi around 60 ( as were the other coins). Then I dug an 1826 coin, not silver though. (Not many silver coins in Germany unfortunately). I was thinking of leaving and thought I saw a dog out of the corner of my eye, I looked up and there was just a patch of grass but I took it as a sign ;-) I walked up and dug some kind of badge, then a bullet and then a coin from 1874, all quick like. All the coins sounded good in d4 mode, the beep was mostly clear and sharp. But, some of the junk I dug rang that way too. I pretty much dug everything that wasn't iron, not much "park trash" there. I really don't know how no one else missed these targets as they weren't deep but there was some iron nearby, it's actually all over. I ran the detector with max sens again and ran the discrim between 1 and 16.

The Omega really tricks me with iron (The T2 never really did, it was amazing but I've pulled more from iron by far with my Omega - go figure). But I'm starting to see that things that jump all over (in and out of iron) are usually iron and not a coin hidden in iron. If I can get a consistent one or two way signal in iron, then it is worth digging, not when it is jumpy.

Julien,

Your dirt will most probably NOT allow you to use the overdrive feature(s) of the F75 LTD. I fully understand why you would want to go back to the Sov......or Explorer......as........the type of dirt that you live in.....is highly mineralized.

Also, I rarely utilize my VDI numbers.....on any of the T2/F75/Omega series. If I am exclusively 'coin' hunting.....then I may use the VDI.......but even then....I will analyze/decide by audio only.

I know I have mentioned this before......but is worth repeating: MOST of my higher value finds.....were NOT high-tone/coin-tone targets. Mid-tones......especially relic fields......are turning out to be the 'serious' finds. ((( Certainly not to down-play the high-tones ))).

"Do you have any other machines that tell you a LOT of info through the audio? I suppose I could set any machine up to give me good audio and put a sock over the screen so Idon't look at it."
julien, i feel the exact same way you do! and i would love to see detector manufacturers pay more attention to audio and user options for audio adjustability and tone set up. as for the sock covering the display i have been seriously thinking of blocking my display so i CANT/WONT try and depend on the id numbers and hunt audio only and see if my finds increase.
i have mentioned this before but, i would love to have cz20 style audioboost. i would love to be able to adjust the specific tone volume up or down.
chuck.

Regarding current detectors, which ones give a great audio signal? Are they up to par with past detectors?

I have an Omega now, had a T2 so am curious to "hear" what you have to say. When I use the d2 mode (modulated) and get a target I always switch to the d4 mode (beep) to listen to it's clarity as the modulated tone doesn't do it for me. But, it goes deeper on the Omega and I just prefer to hunt in it. (I guess I like listening for those faints hits).

There's VERY good intelligence in 'modulated' audio.......BUT.....it is ALL TOO EASY to miss the faint/weak/deep targets.......the ones we do NOT want to miss.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------

> The Omega really tricks me with iron (The T2 never
> really did, it was amazing but I've pulled more
> from iron by far with my Omega - go figure). But
> I'm starting to see that things that jump all over
> (in and out of iron) are usually iron and not a
> coin hidden in iron. If I can get a consistent one
> or two way signal in iron, then it is worth
> digging, not when it is jumpy.



I myself Earthman have always found machines that hit on iron will at the end of the day have more finds in the pouch....A machine that Identifies iron too good and exact is leaving target's behind for sure..

especially if you want deep non- ferrous target's...Sad but true....

I am not fond of a machine that is not fooled by larger flat iron....Now nails are different but yes the omega and the Gold Bug will jump on iron and fool you..I like it!!!

Keith

eith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> earthmansurfer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------K
> ----
>
> > The Omega really tricks me with iron (The T2
> never
> > really did, it was amazing but I've pulled more
> > from iron by far with my Omega - go figure).
> But
> > I'm starting to see that things that jump all
> over
> > (in and out of iron) are usually iron and not a
> > coin hidden in iron. If I can get a consistent
> one
> > or two way signal in iron, then it is worth
> > digging, not when it is jumpy.
>
>
>
> I myself Earthman have always found machines that
> hit on iron will at the end of the day have more
> finds in the pouch....A machine that Identifies
> iron too good and exact is leaving target's behind
> for sure..
>
> especially if you want deep non- ferrous
> target's...Sad but true....
>
> I am not fond of a machine that is not fooled by
> larger flat iron....Now nails are different but
> yes the omega and the Gold Bug will jump on iron
> and fool you..I like it!!!
>
> Keith

The SovereignGT is fooled by flat iron everytime and by cut square nails, but not by whole nails, they always double beep. So the GBSE does not hit good on flat iron or it does? I am a little confused by your answer. I haven't used the O8K in iron yet enough to know about it but I would think that it would like flat iron.. it doesn't or it does?

J

Jbow, I know your question isn't for me but I've used the O8 a bit to comment. I have only been fooled by flat iron a couple of times and cut nails as many but what gets me is just the jumpiness around iron (when it's wet outside anyway). I guess that is because the ground is on fire with conductivity due to the ferrous residue from the rusted iron? I'm starting to see that when a target goes from an iron ID to metal and jumps all over it (so far) is iron. That is not the same as a one way signal, but I just had to dig about 4 or 5 of those signals to realize it and will dig a few more to make sure I'm not missing anything. I'm simplifying things regarding the iron signal but the T2 didn't get fooled there, but then again I didn't dig as many coins in iron, so as Keith said, it's a good thing.

I'm interested to hear more about intelligence in modulated audio, in particular on the O8. I hear pretty good but it's a different kind of differentiation than listening to a beep. Are you maybe talking about the distance between the modulations in the audio (like peak to peak sound)? It would be easy to compare to the beep that stands out so easily for me, hints?

yes the Gold Bug hits real well on flat iron but it has alot of nuance to the signal that once you have your ear trained to it you almost always can tell sometimes it will fool you but I like that....

Now on the GB tin is real tricky and it loves crown caps...But that is awesome too because I have always found that machines that like bottle caps will also dig real low conductor buttons like Confederate Tin Back button's...

Omega like Large iron also but is not as sharp hitting on it as the GB..


One thing that the GB does well is slice through Square nails with ease compared to the T-2 and F-75 ...I have probably only dug 5-6 nails since running the GB compared to the T-2 that I ways always chasing them ....

So larger iron and tin is tricky but easily doable.. and really a must have component Most of the larger iron that fools you but is really loud can easily be Identified off the toe off the coil so that's nice....But remember a large piece of iron will really cancel out some non-ferrous targets in close proximity and further away than you might think also...

We are limited with todays technology to what can be accomplished ....There's no magic detector made to see through iron...one simple nail will ruin your find of a lifetime for sure...I have a C.S.A. rectangle buckle that was masked just by small iron and nails.. and till the dirt was moved it was undetectable .. and it was only about 10 inches deep... so when we are in bad ground or iron infestation we only scratch the surface for find's...

I am still a firm believer that there's still more in the ground right now than has ever been found..site for site...And some of the best stuff to be found is yet to come...


Keith

Modulated audio is the only reason I go back to the Explorer. The thing is too heavy, ugly, and the sounds are annoying, but there's so much information in each swing, how could I use anything else? It will be interesting to hear the AT-Pro.

So, though it is not something we really want to do... digging all the iron is something we should do. I guess I knew that, it is just not something that I want to do but I have a site I am going to start gridding and iron digging just to see what might come to light. I the absense of a new site I can't think of anything better to do!

Thanks,

J


Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes the Gold Bug hits real well on flat iron but
> it has alot of nuance to the signal that once you
> have your ear trained to it you almost always can
> tell sometimes it will fool you but I like
> that....
>
> Now on the GB tin is real tricky and it loves
> crown caps...But that is awesome too because I
> have always found that machines that like bottle
> caps will also dig real low conductor buttons like
> Confederate Tin Back button's...
>
> Omega like Large iron also but is not as sharp
> hitting on it as the GB..
>
>
> One thing that the GB does well is slice through
> Square nails with ease compared to the T-2 and
> F-75 ...I have probably only dug 5-6 nails since
> running the GB compared to the T-2 that I ways
> always chasing them ....
>
> So larger iron and tin is tricky but easily
> doable.. and really a must have component Most of
> the larger iron that fools you but is really loud
> can easily be Identified off the toe off the coil
> so that's nice....But remember a large piece of
> iron will really cancel out some non-ferrous
> targets in close proximity and further away than
> you might think also...
>
> We are limited with todays technology to what can
> be accomplished ....There's no magic detector made
> to see through iron...one simple nail will ruin
> your find of a lifetime for sure...I have a C.S.A.
> rectangle buckle that was masked just by small
> iron and nails.. and till the dirt was moved it
> was undetectable .. and it was only about 10
> inches deep... so when we are in bad ground or
> iron infestation we only scratch the surface for
> find's...
>
> I am still a firm believer that there's still more
> in the ground right now than has ever been
> found..site for site...And some of the best stuff
> to be found is yet to come...
>
>
> Keith

I have been testing the G2 and it is a one tone machine as fast as the LTD but I can run it fully open 95-99 with no chatter. Really deep and I feel it is a bit better at unmasking then the LTD. Love all targets but coins are no problem for this machine. I feel it hits harder on coins then the LTD.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Audio is the way to go for sure as it goes way deeper then any ID.

Many of us have held onto our sovs and XL pros and many other kinds of analog or other " sound rich" detectors even after we bought the newest and deepest digital beast.

I have searched, and searched again, and again, for the digital soundbeat that can outdo the old clunkers I love...

Know what...

DJ and FT and fisher did it..... and they will probably outdo it at a little later date.

GoldBud,, yea BUD... cause it is my budyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.. now...

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been testing the G2 and it is a one tone
> machine as fast as the LTD but I can run it fully
> open 95-99 with no chatter. Really deep and I feel
> it is a bit better at unmasking then the LTD. Love
> all targets but coins are no problem for this
> machine. I feel it hits harder on coins then the
> LTD.

I am interested in the G2. I am thinking it will make the Tejon obsolete and it shares some coils with the Omega. Unmasking is really good for me because I really need it. Right now my best unmasking comes from the E-TRAC in Ferrous/2-tones... still an iffy signal but if it gives a good CO and a reasonable FE number from even one direction... i've found it wirth digging... if that one way signal is consistant it is likely a good masked target.
Can you set the breakpoint for the low/high tone anywhere or is it restricted?

Thanks!

Julien

The break point in Audio is where you set your disc....

You will find your perfect break point and it isnt going to be 40 where the ferrous-nonferrous breakpoint is...

There is a vocabular here that will please you...

How good is the audio information you get from the V3i and Etrac? I know both have lots of extra visual information but I hope that doesn't come at the cost of the audio.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 06:10PM by earthmansurfer.

earthmansurfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How good is the audio information you get from the
> V3i and Etrac? I know both have lots of extra
> visual information but I hope that doesn't come at
> the cost of the audio.

I think it does come at the cost of audio. The original XS is better then the new E-trac in audio and the V3 has a more profound beeb then nuicances in the sound.

The GB kicks their ass for Audio...

The stability of the CO number on the ET makes up for any loss of audio. It is solid.

J