NOKTA FORS GOLD+ --- Field Test

1000 nails! That's a lot of dig time even if you add some of those to one hole. Thx Tom for the time you put in on these machines to keep us informed. Kind of adds a new meaning to learning curve but could see how it would help in the long run.

Thx again

This could be why the impact maybe a killer machine it will have different freq and it's from Turkey! Could be better then the Deus and a gold machine and clean-up in iron...But one thing I have to mention It would be cool if Tom could do a youtube video from a handheld camera and show us what he is hearing. It could be some of us or a lot of us hunt differently and hear sounds that would make us dig in iron where others would walk away..What does Tom hear that makes this machine good in iron and how different is it from what I hear and leave or dig...We aren't looking for a video to buy just some examples like Keith does for us. I like to hunt and make videos but hey a minute here and there no big editing post on yourtube and share with us what you hear and see on the machine??

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Keep in mind I'm very sure like Tom said he is digging nails on purpose. What he is relaying is it tells you what is in the ground really good ferrous vs conductive. IOW it's not calling conductive targets ferrous as a lot of machines will do. That is really a brilliant way to really see what the machine is telling you approaching it from the back door of what we dig for. I'll have to comment. I've hardly dug any nails uh 2 I think that had nice round heads on then. Of course, I'm not looking for them. Very good analysis from a different angle Tom. I could only dream, me being primarily a coin hunter in HEAVY trash, a 3 tone mode on this machine.............



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2015 12:05PM by Jack Flynn.

Vested the full 6-hour round trip to primary RWTG (Real World Test Garden)...... for full/vested/valued analysis.

* Square nails were old enough/decomposed to a level whereby Disc '19' was difficult; yet, (for the first time) allowed/authorized/preferred on the FGP. The 5" coil did indeed provide better adjacent target separation; yet, non-ferrous targets were deep enough that the 5" coil limited depth capabilities rendered its function/use.... impractical/ineffective/disqualified. Good coil; wrong application.
The 10" elliptical concentric was equally effective as compared to the 10" elliptical DD coil. There were a few percentage of targets where one coil would not detect (but the other 10" coil would)..... and an equal amount (few percentage of) targets the other coil would not detect. Nearly both coils in the real world have positive/valid application. . . . with hardly an edge for one over the other.

* Direct (no handicaps given) head-to-head comparison to the unmasking flagship GMP in 'maximum validated/variables removed' fashion dictates that the FGP is within 3% of the 'unmasking capabilities' of the GMP...... as long as soil mineralization was low. There was one particular target that the GMP would absolutely NOT detect; yet, the FGP presented a 80% confidence of the presence of a non-ferrous target. The FGP was correct..... as a small ball of 14-Ga (solid core) copper wire was recovered at 6.5" depth...... in a carpet of square nails. There were a few targets that the GMP called 'non-ferrous'...... even to the point of correctly calling the conductivity of the non-ferrous target...... that the FGP could never see. In a nutshell; the FGP is less than 3% shy of the performance of the GMP......... both in real-world unmasking...... and real-world depth capabilities.

* Verified multiple times...... there were many masked targets that were only detectable with a Disc setting of '19'. Raising Disc just one increment..... to '20' .... and the target became audibly 'difficult' to discern. A Disc setting of '21'.... and the badly handicapped/masked target would then become undetectable.

* Both the FGP & GMP can produce/perform very well in carpets of nails......... if the operator is capable of 'surgical fashion' attentiveness in iron. For the first time in history, we now have the abilities to 'start' to unmask non-ferrous targets in Fe environments.

* Taking the FGP into medium-mineralized dirt (T2/F75 4-bar dirt)......... the FGP did not perform so well. A dime at 5" would start to break up...... whereby, the FGP would start to ID the dime as ferrous/non-ferrous about 50% of the time. The GMP would ascertain 7.6" with proper ID. Greater depths of the dime....... to approx. 9.8"....... and the GMP would ID the target as non-ferrous...... yet, not 'dime'; but (most importantly) not 'iron'.

* All metal mode on FGP would indeed detect slightly deeper (approx. 0.2" on a clad dime); yet, whilst in all-metal mode.... the last 1.5" of depth poses substantially less audio intelligence..... unless you already know the target is there. BST boost mode is more audibly intelligible.

* In low mineral dirt where targets are sparse, a faster (brisk) coil sweep speed will provide greater depth and better resolution.

* All 4 coils supplied were pleasantly/surprisingly impedance-matched........ to nearly exacting spec's. Nice to see this kind of QC.

* In BST boost mode on FGP...... a Type-1, U.S. $1.00 Gold coin air-tests to 1" greater distances over a clad (or silver) dime. ((Real dirt scenario completely changes this resultant)). Type 1 $1.00 Gold coin ID's '57-58'.

* A 'dug' 3-Cent nickel (1865) ID's as a '50' on FGP.

* Adjacent target separation with large 16" DD coil is poor.

* Large 16" coil will air-test a nickel at 19".

* First set (4 AA) batteries lasted 13 hours. Second set of batteries lasted (12.5 hours). Same brand of batteries; yet, different batch number.

I speculate some of the reason as to 'why' the FGP did not handle the bad dirt........ may be due (in part) to coil footprint.
One common 'performance signature' of all of these new batches/brands of relic hunting detectors is....... as you rotate your body around a suspected non-ferrous target in carpets of nails......... each detector has a electronic platform 'audio signature' as to the non-ferrous drop-off/pick-up audio reporting............ that are exceptionally similar from one brand to another. In other words (via example)...... if a non-ferrous target is in co-locate with ferrous targets........ and one brand of detector allows/authorizes a 32% 'body rotate' around the target (whilst continuing to sweep coil) whereby: giving a good non-ferrous audio tone/report.............. Brand-X, Brand-Y and Brand-Z detectors are also approx. 32% (positive non-ferrous ID) body-rotation around suspect non-ferrous target. Coil footprint may alter the percentage a bit. If your skill-set already has this knowledge/experience,.,.,.,., your learning-curve with this new detector will be easy. I venture to say that the electronic architect ...... are very similar.

Most field-testing complete. Only a few more minor tests to perform.

Tom,
You may have stated but I missed.

What size coil on the GMP unit????

Tom Great write up..

Did you notice the Boost mode to Light up the soil target wise and mineral wise?

I prefer the 5x10 C to the 5DD..

Im asking for a 5 C..

One other thing I would like to add is the the DEUS is able to pwer balance..

the Nokta Gold plus and Core and Makro Racer can not..Just like the F75 /T2 and slew of other FTP machines

in harsher soil the DEUS will see deeper if the ground bal is offset enough..

The Only Makro or Nokta I know of that can power balance is the CF77 and the Velox one...

I may also add the Plus is my favorte site machine right now ...RIGHT NOW!


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2015 02:43AM by Keith Southern.

By power balance Keith do you mean purposefully offsetting the ground balance? If that is the case, why are you unable to do it on the FORS or Racer units?

Great stuff Tom, thanks!

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By power balance Keith do you mean purposefully
> offsetting the ground balance? If that is the
> case, why are you unable to do it on the FORS or
> Racer units?
>
> Great stuff Tom, thanks!


guess I didn't fully understand the question

Keith answered it below much better than I explained it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2015 03:49PM by MichiganRelicHunter.

Guess I should of been a little clearer Steve..

you can off set the ground balance on the racer or CoRe for sure..but it does not have the effect of making the ground reactive in disc mode like the DEUS or gmp or DTVG At Pro tejon etc..

they behave more like FTP machines ..you can set the ground bal low on FTP units and get no real ground reactivity in the disc circuit..

Take the Gold plus and run your ground bal 20 or 30 points low and go back to disc and Bob coil and see if you see any sort or reaction...Take a DEUS or some other units and run Ground bal low like 20 points then flip to disc and most likely the ground reaction will keep you from hunting intelligently or at all..

I've found units that are ground reactive in disc from power balancing to help in depth in mineral noticable at times.


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

I am not understanding the part where you say flip to disc. You should be in disc mode. Then push the ground balance button and do the pump routine. Upon releasing the button immediately use the manual override to offset the ground balance in either direction.

I get the impression you are ground balancing in General and then switching to a disc mode rather than balancing in the disc mode. Maybe it would make no difference but then again maybe it would.

With the F75 if I recall correctly you only have manual ground balance in all metal mode, then switch to disc. But it is not that way with the FORS or Racer units.

Then again it is late and I am turning in so brain just might be fuzzy. Will check back and compare notes tomorrow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2015 07:29AM by Steve Herschbach.

tnss = The stock 9" coil on the XP GMP.

Keith, yes, the boost mode made for a slightly more responsive resultant in regards to increasing the audio to a more intelligible (lengthened) response. On this note: Logic would dictate that FST mode...... coupled to a tight footprint DD coil...... would perform better, in regards to unmasking..... in carpets of nails. Not so. The BST mode provided better responses....... regardless of 10" DD or 10" Concentric coil.
Also, in the bad soil............ in units of '3' increments............. I tried to ascertain better depth and better ID on non-ferrous targets. Manually changing the Grnd Balance resulted in very minimal increase/decrease in responses from non-ferrous buried targets. The FGP ground balanced at '74'......... and changing the Grnd Bal to 71, 68, 65, 62.......... or going the other direction: 77, 80, 83, 86 etc................ to nearly the full spectrum,.,.,., produced minimum performance enhancement/detriment ......... unless....... the Grnd Bal was excessively off.,.,.,.,.,., then, depth/ID error were accentuated.

* Switching the FGP over to FST fast mode in the bad dirt, did not afford any improvements. This is also to include: changing/trying different Grnd Bal settings.

Hey Steve...

When you do a Ground grab from the Disc mode it swtiches to all metal...then you can off set the balance if you like for a few seconds Via menu screen.. then it will switch back to your disc mode in a few seconds...


But what I mainly am trying to point out is that the CoRe and Racer models even with a large off set of say 20 or 30 points it really does not make the Ground reactive/responsive while in the disc mode ...

Say I take a GMP or AT PRO or slew of others and run the ground bal negative say 20 points...If I try to hunt in the soil in disc mode with the Gournd bal that negative I will get alot of feedback and falsing..

The Racer and CoRe and Golds Etc from Nokta/Makro seem to behave like a F19 Or Omega etc in terms of not really effecting the disc mode ground feedback by having ground bal. too negative..


Now the Cf77 and the Velox one with a negative ground bal of a few point's will make the disc mode very chattery and noisy like most other units..

Im not sure what causes the lack of NOISE in a TOO Negative Ground bal on these unit's ...I used to think on some FTP machines the Ground balance did not actually carry over to disc circuit and have questioned it on some units like a G2..I can run ground bal wherever I like with no Nosie problems at all in disc mode on a G2 or even Omega for that fact..((Dave Johnson say's differently about it and He knows..He states it does carry over))..So theres something else FILETRING wise that must happen to reduce improper ground balance audio feedback in the disc circuit's on those units...

It so seems the Racer's and CoRe's have found the same Ingredient's..

Yet it also seems SOME modern machines do not adhere to power balancing...

Theres alot that goes on we dont fully know it seems inside the circuit's...

I do know a unit that can Power Balance will have slight depth gains in harsher magnetic soil as long as you can keep the audio intelligent noise wise..

Maybe Im making sense I dont Know LOL!!

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Making sense to me Keith, thanks. Just another tidbit to know. When nugget detecting with the FORS and Racer units exactly four touches of the button positive on the ground balance does the trick for me. A ground balance offset control would be nice but then feature creep sets in and next thing you know we have a V3i.

Ok Steve!!

I assume you are using this 4 click advance Ground bal while in the Threshold based all metal mode since your nugget hunting ??

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

I know the testing I've done.
Nokta CoRe and Makro Racer---- ground balance doesn't seem overly important for them to reach their depth capabilities

Fisher F75 platform on the other hand GB definitely more critical for the detector to reach its depth capabilities

Xp Deus again it's Gb not near as critical as F75's but more critical than Nokta CoRe and Makro Racer

After reading and watching some of the folk's comments of using CoRes and Racers in both dry and wet salt sand---I'm thinking the Gb system utilized on them is part of the reason they seem for a single freq Vlf to be so stable.

And I'll bet this Fors Gold plus is more at home on the wet dry salt beaches as well.
But I don't even know if it has a beach mode-- so maybe not..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2015 09:31PM by tnsharpshooter.

Thanks Tom...

Yes I like to run Boost ALMSOT always...More intelligent to me.. and really gravitate to the 5x10 C. in iron..

I like the way Boost talks...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok Steve!!
>
> I assume you are using this 4 click advance Ground
> bal while in the Threshold based all metal mode
> since your nugget hunting ??
>
> Keith

Yes although it is such a habit now I do it on the disc side also, though in disc I can't say it makes any difference.

Steve I concur on you statement....

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

* FGP with 5" coil is very effective in carpets of nails where targets are only a few inches deep (under a 'lifted' and removed old home).... where targets were removed/exempted from mother-nature...... and did not sink. About 12% more targets could be found with the 5" coil.....vs......10" elliptical concentric coil.

* Different brand of batteries lasted 17 hours.

* Once again..... do not use the pinpoint button (feature) whilst in carpets of nails. The pinpoint feature will bring you to the 'strongest' signal....... which may not be the (weaker) non-ferrous intended target of interest.

I get about 11 hours out of the rechargeables..

seems more economical on this unit for sure to have recharegables...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Although audio intelligence is greater than 99% of my detecting style, there is something to be said.............. credit/Kudo's to be given.................. and 'application' to units that have a visual target ID system. Where am I going with this. Where does the FGP have application over the GMP. I will 'find' the niche application...... and employ. Since the FGP and GMP have nearly the same capabilities in iron/carpets of nails........ there is one delineation that 'can' set the two platforms apart. I have one particular area that is littered with positive hot rocks, chewing gum foil....... and a plethora of medium-conductor historical relics. The GMP has no ID meter.......... only tones. This is to say.....the GMP will 'mid-tone' on hot rocks, chewing gum foil and medium-conductance relics. So will the FGP. BUT........ on the FGP.......... you have the ability to ignore the hot rocks & chewing gum foil..... as they ID in the 40's on the VDI. If you are using the GMP...... there is no tool/means/capability to differentiate between one mid-tone target to another mid-tone target; hence, all positive hot rocks and chewing gum foil must be dug. Not cost/time efficient!

((( And yet, I still prefer the GMP to NOT have a meter.............. contradictory as it may seem! )))

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although audio intelligence is greater than 99% of
> my detecting style, there is something to be
> said.............. credit/Kudo's to be
> given.................. and 'application' to units
> that have a visual target ID system. Where am I
> going with this. Where does the FGP have
> application over the GMP. I will 'find' the niche
> application...... and employ. Since the FGP and
> GMP have nearly the same capabilities in
> iron/carpets of nails........ there is one
> delineation that 'can' set the two platforms
> apart. I have one particular area that is littered
> with positive hot rocks, chewing gum foil.......
> and a plethora of medium-conductor historical
> relics. The GMP has no ID meter.......... only
> tones. This is to say.....the GMP will 'mid-tone'
> on hot rocks, chewing gum foil and
> medium-conductance relics. So will the FGP.
> BUT........ on the FGP.......... you have the
> ability to ignore the hot rocks & chewing gum
> foil..... as they ID in the 40's on the VDI. If
> you are using the GMP...... there is no
> tool/means/capability to differentiate between one
> mid-tone target to another mid-tone target; hence,
> all positive hot rocks and chewing gum foil must
> be dug. Not cost/time efficient!
>
> ((( And yet, I still prefer the GMP to NOT have a
> meter.............. contradictory as it may seem!
> )))


Good info Tom

and I'm the same way with CZ's

my all time fav CZ is the original CZ20 with 8" spider coil, white lower rod, steel arm cuff and I believe it even had a white coil cover even though the coil was black!

Those suckers went DEEP! But I got so used to using one that it was my go to machine for over a decade and a 1/2 even though I had 4/5 others at all times during that time

I like/d it even better than my next fav CZ = the 6a

I'm liking this FGP though too = that's for sure

I just wish it had an iron vol. control and the handle was a bit more relaxed --- it's too "forward/angled" and causes your wrist to ache after a while

Yeah the grip angle on the Fors are less than to be desired on lighter coils

the 7x11 and large coil work well on it but the lighter coils are light in the nose and it does make you push the coil to the soil constantly..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> * I have (now) recovered over 1000 nails with the
> FGP. This is mandatory/deliberate.... and a
> critical part of the learning-curve tuition.
> Now........... with specifically the
> FGP........... this tuition affords a pique
> skill-set whereby allowing me to enter into a
> carpet of nails and.............. with
> confidence............. have the
> skill-set/capabilities to delineate between
> nails..... and delineate between nail/non-ferrous
> co-locate scenario. I have been practicing this
> procedure for over 44 years...... and could write
> a book about the eye-opening experiences that
> ensue whilst performing such function. I 'paid the
> price'. Now......... I can 'efficiently' save a
> lot of time on each/every site that is
> hunted....... seeking to eek out the non-ferrous
> implements.

NASA-Tom --

That paragraph right there is like watching the trailer for a great movie. It almost FORCES you to pony up the time and money, once the actual movie is released, to go and see "the rest of the story." LOL!

I, for one, would LOVE to buy that book that you just advertised! Can I be first in line?

Steve

I have now tested the big 40cm (16" ) DD coil for the FGP. Results as follows:

* Very stable coil. No EMI issues encountered. Nearly the same level of EMI stability as compared to the 10" coils.

* Although it is a very large coil..... it is not difficult to swing/manage/articulate. It is a thin coil.....fairly light. Epoxy-filled........ solid.

* Pinpointing with the coil is easy and exacting.

* In low-mineral dirt...... the overall depth performance is nearly the same as the 10" elliptical concentric coil. Ground coverage is increased; yet, depth remains nearly unchanged on coin-sized targets. (Air-Tests expresses different results).

* ID accuracy/reliability is exceptionally good....... identical to all of the other coils/sizes.

* Ground Balance numbers do indeed differ slightly than all other coils. Tested in no, low, medium-low, and medium mineralized soils. The greater the mineralization...... the greater the difference with the Grnd Bal numbers....as compared to other coils; yet, the difference is not much.

NASA-Tom --

A MOST interesting analysis you have done on this unit. Seems like it is a very, very good -- near top-notch -- performer in iron. However, the lack of greater depth (from what I can glean from this thread) has me concerned, for the following reason...

I have occasional access to an old (1850s through Civil War period) military site that, in some places, is littered with square nails -- but good finds abound amongst the nails that are a challenge due to the masking problems. This seems like the ideal scenario for the FGP. However, other parts of this same site are much "cleaner," and given that much of the site has been cropland in succeeding years, many targets -- including round balls and minie balls, buttons, etc., but also a good number of silver coins, lie deeper, due to plowing/cultivating, i.e. in the 6" to 10" range (and, certainly, deeper -- though beyond detection capabilities of the machines I hunt with).

My concern is that I have been trying to arrive at a good "one unit that does it all" for this site -- i.e. very, very good in iron, but also with respectably deep performance, that I could exploit in cleaner areas. That way, as I'm moving through the site, I can be confident in the machine's ability to hit deep targets, including silver, in areas where cleaner ground permits, OR confident it its ability to pick through the iron, when I run across the areas where structures used to exist and thus the nails abound. Sounds like, with the FGP, it would probably be better than anything I've ever used, in the iron, but would struggle with the high conductors beyond 6" deep. Am I gleaning the correct information?

I have used a Gold Bug Pro on this site with some success, and recently acquired an F19 that I intend to try. Both of those units, though, are NOT as good in the iron as the FGP, and are also somewhat limited in depth capability on high conductors, as well (though apparently not to the degree that the FGP is?)

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

Your quest is a common one........ and with tremendous/substantial founded/backing.
And there's enough mineral differences between sites..... that preclude me from having the capability of giving you a correct/clean answer.

BUT................ technologically ........ what we have today is: Detectors that are "just starting" to separate and partially unmask........................... OR ............................. detectors that are starting to have reasonable/respectable depth capabilities. But NOT both......... as of yet.

NASA-Tom,

Thanks for the reply. Understood. Sounds like, at least for now, I'd be better served keeping two units available for the job -- one, that excels at being a "deep seeker," and one that has pushed the boundaries, so to speak, into the realm of unmasking...

Good to know; this helps to bring expectations a bit more in line with today's reality. In other words, accepting where we exist TODAY, technologically, versus where we may someday get to, down the road (in terms of "one machine that excels at depth AND unmasking").

One other thing I gleaned, from your write-ups, is that aside from an air test, there's not much more "blood to be squeezed from the turnip," in terms of any additional depth, by moving to the larger coil. Interesting...

Thank you sir!

I'm loving this detailed analysis you are doing here; much appreciated.

Steve

Got one of these for sale, also includes 10" x 5" concentric coil, all like new, 22 months remaining factory warranty. SOLD!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2016 02:28AM by Steve Herschbach.

Quote

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Got one of these for sale, also includes 10" x 5"
> concentric coil, all like new, 22 months remaining
> factory warranty. $599 shipped
> [www.detectorprospector.com]

Good price for a great machine WITH the extra concentric coil in the package!

If you end up breaking the package up Steve = I'll take the Concentric coil