Depth tests versus Seperation tests

I notice alot of depth testing on Youtube. Oh, I enjoy watching them. But the other day, when I decided to stick an old square nail in the side of a hole (about 5" by 5" hole) with a 58 cal Minie Ball at the bottom......and then swing over it.....(no non-ferrous signal)......bullet was 5 inches deep. I was using a 5 inch (out of round) coil, I was shocked. I mean, I thought that the five inch coils 'beam' would see the bullet since the nail was off to one side (about 2 inches). It made me ponder on just how much stuff is being masked out there. Oh, I used a XP GMP on the same scenario. No hi tone. It would only 'see' the nail. In all fairness, I will say that I placed the nail in the side of the 5 inch deep hole about one inch above the bullet. But the bullet did not have any ferrous target directly over it. The only conclusion that I could draw was this: "Boy, have I got alot to learn." But back to my scenario. Allow me to try and paint a visual pic: I dug a nice, neat, square, 5 inch plug. I placed a bullet in it. I then stuck a square nail into the side of the plug-hole about and inch above the bullet. So that the bullet would not have anything blocking it......but a square nail head off to the side a couple of inches. I waved the 5 inch OOR coil over it. No hi tone. (Without the nail, I easily got a hi tone......but ONLY when I placed the plug back on top. It wouldn't see the bullet if there was no dirt in the hole.) I found this interesting. I haven't a clue why this happened. Anyway, I removed the dirt (still in tact as a plug) and stuck a nail into the side of the plug hole. I replaced the plug. Iron signal. I rotated around all the way around the buried bullet/ nail. No change. Still, and iron tone. I wouldn't have dug it if it was a real world scenario.
But I DID learn another lesson. When I get a good tone, (when real world detecting) and I dig a plug.....and lose the tone.....I will still use my pinpointer and circle the hole in case the hi tone target went silent.
If anyone understands what I just wrote.......you deserve a Pulitzer Prize!!!! I tried to make my concerns clear. Thanks for reading. Merry Christmas. kevin

Kevin,
I understand your post--- clearly

You commented a few days ago about something indeed similar.

The iron is overpowering your nonferrous target.

You see most vids folks test using SAME plane test--- these do serve a purpose, but definitely don't paint the whole true picture as far as detector performance/ capability.

This is where 3D or multi plane test shed more light.

Now you mentioned using themXP Goldmaxx-- and getting no high tone.
I've never run a Goldmaxx, but where in in 3 tone??? And did you hear a mid tone on your target??

The mighty Deus I do have experience with, and sometimes in these scenarios, the tone is there using 3 tome setup but the tone received is just not the low tome, but midtone.

And remember the detector doesn't work on just a spot or sharp line concept when it comes to transmit and receive. More complicated than that.

As far as a 3D concept in testing iron/ nails above nonferrous--- I find the Deus tops ( remember Goldmaxx performs extremely close to Deus). And I haven't used

And the distance, size, depth of both the ferrous, nonferrous target, conductivity of nonferrous target all come into play-- ground minerals too.

As far as the target being seen with dirt vs without. This happens at times. And the exact reason on any one target/ scenario-- can be a mixed bag of sorts.
Imo sometimes it's caused because the GB gets altered with the missing dirt- hole
And sometimes it happens, because the dirt missing causes a missing conduit of sorts,,,,,,and the receive portion/ process remains incomplete, hence no signal--- filtering in disc mode a factor
And if you will go to all metal many times a target will be readily seen.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2015 06:58AM by tnsharpshooter.

@Kevin B
A "real world scenario"? You mean outside, with real soil and targets at different levels? You were doing it wrong. No wonder, you are disappointed.
You should use a clean sheet of paper with nails on it. It's called the "nail board test". Do it inside. If it doesn't work the first time, don't worry, just keep swinging the coil over the target. Try to adjust the speed until you get the desired result.

There are plenty of masked targets out there. Masked targets are right up there with deep targets in number. Your experiment clued you in on how easy it can happen. Usually when I see a hole being dug on Youtube I just pass on by because it is usually another screwed up depth test. What your test and the nail board test do show is how to get the best out of your detector. And hunting a site from multiple angles is very important. And in the end you still are going to leave a bunch of targets in the ground.

x2000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Kevin B
> A "real world scenario"? You mean outside, with
> real soil and targets at different levels? You
> were doing it wrong. No wonder, you are
> disappointed.
> You should use a clean sheet of paper with nails
> on it. It's called the "nail board test". Do it
> inside. If it doesn't work the first time, don't
> worry, just keep swinging the coil over the
> target. Try to adjust the speed until you get the
> desired result.

Funny! I see the value in the nail board test, because if a detector won't pass it, it has no chance of finding a similar target in the real world. But with the ground being three dimensional along with the targets in it, I've always felt if a detector passes the nail board test, it has a chance of finding a similar co-located target in the real world. That's why Tom's ball field dig from years ago is so significant. All ferrous targets must be removed to find the non-ferrous ones. I ain't gonna do it, but that's what's required to get it all, or most of it.

x2000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Kevin B
> A "real world scenario"? You mean outside, with
> real soil and targets at different levels? You
> were doing it wrong. No wonder, you are
> disappointed.
> You should use a clean sheet of paper with nails
> on it. It's called the "nail board test". Do it
> inside. If it doesn't work the first time, don't
> worry, just keep swinging the coil over the
> target. Try to adjust the speed until you get the
> desired result.

Hahaha oh man, I just gave a Dr. Pepper shower to the table. Haha So very true.

This thread reminds me of the following.

You'll be talking about detector performance when in and around iron.

And and old Mienalb user will chime in and say, I've found many nails in holes with coin--- hence my etrac has no problems seeing coins mixed with iron/ nails.

When I see this, I giggle to myself.

Now, here's what .I don't hear these folks ever say, when talking about their rcovery process involving the nails and coin.

For example, I detected a signal with etrac read conductive number 44/45 on different sweeps with a bouncing ferrous number. As I started digging I immediately rcovered a size able nail at just 2" and as I continued to dig down 7 more imches wallah and olé merc down deep.

Now you do hear stories where the nail is down deeper and a coin is infact recovered.
But what if the person would have been able to dig a 1" diameter hole to infact recover their coin in this case. Would they have ever indeed rcovered the nail???
Or even a 1/2" diameter hole????

You see where this is going don't you???

When we dig the deeper signals we usually have to dig a wider hole. And if you are in fact digging say a 6" diameter or even wider hole for coin recovery, there is loads of room for the nail/ iron to not be in the detectors path so to speak.

Now with all this said, something else to be mindful of.
It's very possible indeed where a piece of iron or a nail, can indeed make a nonferrous target be detectable, detected---- iron/nail(s) actually touching a nonferrous object, the grounding effect, this grounding actually at times can by the way a detector works--the nonferrous object properties in a way extended, making it seem bigger nonferrous wise than the target really is.

And for those that remember NASA Tom's tests, recoveries using F75 running disc level 6, with monotone--- Supports this
A good read for folks btw.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2015 02:06PM by tnsharpshooter.

tnsharpshooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread reminds me of the following.
>
> You'll be talking about detector performance when
> in and around iron.
>
> And and old Mienalb user will chime in and say,
> I've found many nails in holes with coin--- hence
> my etrac has no problems seeing coins mixed with
> iron/ nails.
>
> When I see this, I giggle to myself.
>
> Now, here's what .I don't hear these folks ever
> say, when talking about their rcovery process
> involving the nails and coin.
>
> For example, I detected a signal with etrac read
> conductive number 44/45 on different sweeps with a
> bouncing ferrous number. As I started digging I
> immediately rcovered a size able nail at just 2"
> and as I continued to dig down 7 more imches
> wallah and olé merc down deep.
>
> Now you do hear stories where the nail is down
> deeper and a coin is infact recovered.
> But what if the person would have been able to dig
> a 1" diameter hole to infact recover their coin in
> this case. Would they have ever indeed rcovered
> the nail???
> Or even a 1/2" diameter hole????
>
> You see where this is going don't you???
>
> When we dig the deeper signals we usually have to
> dig a wider hole. And if you are in fact digging
> say a 6" diameter or even wider hole for coin
> recovery, there is loads of room for the nail/
> iron to not be in the detectors path so to speak.
>
> Now with all this said, something else to be
> mindful of.
> It's very possible indeed where a piece of iron or
> a nail, can indeed make a nonferrous target be
> detectable, detected---- iron/nail(s) actually
> touching a nonferrous object, the grounding
> effect, this grounding actually at times can by
> the way a detector works--the nonferrous object
> properties in a way extended, making it seem
> bigger nonferrous wise than the target really is.

Very true,in iron laden places if you're not with discrimination on the edge you go home empty handed,you may dig some iron but is the only way.. [m.youtube.com]

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> x2000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > @Kevin B
> > A "real world scenario"? You mean outside,
> with
> > real soil and targets at different levels? You
> > were doing it wrong. No wonder, you are
> > disappointed.
> > You should use a clean sheet of paper with
> nails
> > on it. It's called the "nail board test". Do it
> > inside. If it doesn't work the first time,
> don't
> > worry, just keep swinging the coil over the
> > target. Try to adjust the speed until you get
> the
> > desired result.
>
> Hahaha oh man, I just gave a Dr. Pepper shower to
> the table. Haha So very true.


Daniel,
You mean x2000 didn't win a chicken dinner!!!
I'm surprised. Lol

When relic hunting it might be a good idea to dig even iron..I do instead of going out the whole day I hunt less and dig more and find more

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

You never Replicate a real world scenario Kevin..

All the nail board test does is GIVE AN IDEA...and to me the only test I care about is DOWN THE BARREL as I've coined it..And its a decent indicator that it has POTENTIAL..The rest of the NAIL BOARD TEST has become obsolete quickly in the last few years..

A real world scenario cant be recreated though ..So all the Airtest does in give us a quick measurement on what to expect from one unit to another unit in terms of unmasking..

Also when you remove a plug and look in the hole and see nails and non ferrous object then swing coil over the hole and no report or iron grunt is all you get that is perfectly normal..That's real world In your face......you have shifted and or moved orientation of target/targets and even Broken halos that have electrically connected objects ..Evn the mineral can intensify the grounding of targets and actually make them stronger to hear till soil is moved..

I have a site that I dug My C.S.A. belt buckle out of...it was a great site to hunt and still is but its not like it once was...WHY???Me and My Buddy took a bulldozer and scraped the site of about 10 inches and spread the dirt out around the house site...totally messed up the reports I was getting in that house..its whole different house to hunt now..and all I can do is dig surface small targets to a depth of say 5 inches...Used to you would dig quite deep large brass at times ..Not no more...the iron is fresh and exposed and re situated and it just messed the whole sight up..

If I had hunted it entombed till I was satisfied it was Hunted out then scraped it i would of accepted the fact and scraped it then got what else I could get..but I was impatient and thought there might be another deep buckle in the house..my C.S.A. was over 2 foot deep in that house.A repair crew had taken over a foot of dirt off the corner of the site and that where my buckle was about a foot down below there dig hole...So I hunted it hard for awhile and then scraped the whole house..big Mistake..I was digging more before the scrape..

So While it will be helpful to have a more real world scenario for testing it will never be replicated right and Im almost on the verge of saying a 3-d test may prove to be skewed to the bad...

You have to think...When I say get a machine to pass DOWN THE BARREL ..That's what its doing its passing that test..and it shows speed separation and ability to report on a Tuff plain..But it does not mean it will do that in the dirt..and I hope everyone Knows this..

But it does mean its got speed and separation to Help MAYBE get more in trash...but targets in real world will be anything and anywhere at any angle coupled with oxides you cant hear to begin with so..

The reason I use DOWN THE BARREL is simply its a indicator ..Thats it then leave it alone..take it int he real world for furhter side by side testing..

I might also add because a machine can pass DOWN THE BARREL does not mean it will actually keep up with or out do others in the real world...

Ive seen some do well in Nail tricks..yes nail trick's..If you Know how to set up a test you can fool alot of people..But then in real world hunting it dosent happen...That's the good thing about DOWN THE BAREL though is it is what it is...and anyone can check quickly and easily..16 penny nail common and a Indian head...

But to replicate te a test like you say Kevin with nails in hole and target below is not going to get the results you may like..but all is not lost...burry that for 100 years and check it again !!LOL!!

Do this do a 3d AIRTEST of same scnenario..you'll probably eventually find a layout with nails above object that passes or partially passes..one thing that will help is smaller nails above larger targets.

Detectors are not magic sticks.. they all adhere to the laws of physics ...What we have to find is things that are BUILT for more target retrieval with speed and separation then put them to use in the real world ...Then we may get a little more.. but were really not Unmasking in the real world and it may be the wrong word to use...I dont believe we have seen unmasking...

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2015 05:22PM by Keith Southern.

Now how am I going to get this coffee cleaned off my puter???Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> x2000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > @Kevin B
> > A "real world scenario"? You mean outside,
> with
> > real soil and targets at different levels? You
> > were doing it wrong. No wonder, you are
> > disappointed.
> > You should use a clean sheet of paper with
> nails
> > on it. It's called the "nail board test". Do it
> > inside. If it doesn't work the first time,
> don't
> > worry, just keep swinging the coil over the
> > target. Try to adjust the speed until you get
> the
> > desired result.
>
> Hahaha oh man, I just gave a Dr. Pepper shower to
> the table. Haha So very true.

I think Tom 'nailed' it when he said, " if the signal from the nail is stronger, the nail wins; vice versa the coin wins". If the nail in the NBT were much larger/closer to the coil, it's signal amplitude is larger and it wins..... I think we have fooled ourselves into thinking we are 'unmasking' due to tight DD coils and faster processors, when really we are just separating better on targets that are spatially co-located or nearly so. IMO anyways. Wayne in AZ

You Don't unmask TRULY...YET!!!

Its a word thrown around too freely..Its a great adjective but its not an absolute proper definiton..

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

How exactly is down the barrel set up?

awendaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How exactly is down the barrel set up?


Watch this vid.

When he sweeps longways down the nail.

[m.youtube.com]

I must be losing it. Watched that video a couple times already and just didn't make the connection. Thanks.

Okay, let's talk guns.

A gun has a barrel and the bullet travels down the barrel- on the inside.

So in the vid there was an Indian Head penny laying next to nail.

The gent was sweeping down the barrel of nail, trying to get higher tone or hint of higher tone denoting nonferrous object.

Only one detector passed the test in this video--- the Makro Racer.

I will post another video here so maybe it" s easier to see what is going on.

Watch this video, don"t pay so much attention on the test where the coin is in the middle of the nail board, but rather when it is moved to the other position.

Again the gent will swing over the nail/ coin combination from different angles.

When he comments on this is hard test, this is down the barrel test he was actually referring to earlier in this thread.

Btw the gent in video is indeed Keith Southern-- same person who earlier referred to the " down the barrel test".

Hope this helps...

[m.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2015 02:22AM by tnsharpshooter.

I meant didn't make the connection on the down the barrel phrase. Got it now. Thanks

Thanks for saving me some Time TNSS!!


Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

You are welcome.

Along the lines of what Kieth said:

There was a park in the middle of the city that was being renovated. They took nine inches off the top. From what I heard a few people found wheats and indians, no silver. By the time i got there with the CTX stock coil, after four hours in an area the size of six cars, I found a silver earring that was modern and clad. The worker said they were going to take another inch off this week. So I came back in a few days and only an inch was removed. I found several indians, a few wheats, 6 v nickels my first largie and a crotal bell that was all masked only an inch under the surface(packed in a clay like dirt) in the SAME area I was focused on for four hours. It goes to show how overpowering iron can be on non-ferrous targets.

I think the nailboard tests are a legitimate indicator of a detectors ability to find non ferrous targets next to iron, the proof is very simply that the detectors that are good at passing the test are also the ones that turn out to be good in real world hunting in iron and the ones that are terrible at passing the test......yup they are terrible at hunting in iron....have there been any exceptions to this?...can't think of one off hand.

Well a coil that test good on a nail board test may not be as good as another manufactures coils when it comes the wrap around effect in a 3D matrix of soil with bits of decayed iron etc. That's why the aftermarket coil makers are alive and well,and keep cropping up.Combined with a machine that translates the signals the best will be the ones that's work in the trash the best.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

Nail board tests would be worth doing and paying attention to IF all real world targets were at the same side-by-side level/depth as nails/iron. They are not. Most all sites will have layers of targets. An eye opening read for you would be to go find the article NASA Tom did when he dug the test pits at one of the forts he hunted, removed all the iron nails and rust flakes with his magnet..and kept going deeper. He found musketballs, buttons, etc that were totally masked by the iron that no doubt, in the dirt strata, was above and mixed in with the non ferrous items.

What it boils down to IMO, is the nail board tests are just a way to pass the time. Some people eat it up. I am not one of those people. That's why I like NASA Tom's stuff so much. His stuff is real world data from in the field testing...where it really matters and counts. TNSS has became another favorite of mine to read and watch posts on. Again...he is doing real world tests/hunts and data collecting/posting.