Jimmy Sierra fired from Whites??

you all gotta read this...

[www.detectorprospector.com]

there are also a couple links in that thread that direct you to the letter he sent out about it all..

Not surprised...

Some practices going on over there--- folks have read some of my comments.

I am a die hard believer in playing every card imaginable when it comes to marketing,,, as long as the truth is the core of such tactics and strategies.

Sounds like this gent--- saw the writing on the wall,,, but the head honchos fought.

Oh well,, the light is getting dimmer now,,better wake up folks,,, you know the ones I'm referrring to.

Cheers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2016 03:18PM by tnsharpshooter.

That bites. Novice engineers..... could be interesting given a little lead way and if they have a real passion. They dont lusten to us either.... but at least they cant fire us. This isnt the firt shake up..... about all have done it. Just like a ball team with great players..... some times it still dont work. Sorry for all those whose talent over the past fews year have earned them a pink slip.

If you read JS's message, it seems like a lot of it is about changes in the detector marketplace which Whites and others seem to be responding to. It's getting MUCH harder to make a living selling metal detectors the "old fashioned way" - fixed prices, exclusive territories, multi-level marketing - manufacturer sells to distributor - distributor sells to local dealers - dealers sell to local customers. There is alos a lot aboit whites management and technology, but here's some thoughts I have on the first issue.

I'm not a dealer or distributor of anything, but I was a buyer and contracts/subcontracts manager for 30 years or so.  For that reason, the marketing and distribution of detectors interest me.  Here are some thoughts - for what they are worth--

It used to be that dealers were not allowed to sell "mail order" outside their area.  With the rise of online shopping, it looks like this restriction has been lifted by all manufacturers - pricing used to be "list" price until legislation made price fixing by manufacturers illegal.  The list price then became "Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price" or MSRP.  With the rise of megastores and online sales, discounting went "viral".  In order to prevent cut-throat competition, manufacturers signed dealer agreement with vendors where they were obliged to never publicly advertise prices lower than "Minimum Advertised Price" or MAP. This is perfectly legal - but the key here is "publicly" advertised.  They are allowed to sell at any price they want by private negotiation.

If you want to know what the MAP is for any detector, look at an online listing of any dealer or on Amazon.  On Amazon, the MAP will be the price in red - the price in grey with a line through it, next to the MAP is the MSRP.  The "you save xx%" is the difference percentage between the two.  The manufacturers can change the MAP whenever they want apparently and you can kind of tell how well a given detector is selling by what the "discount" of MAP to MSRP is.  Typically it's about 15%, but as a model gets harder to sell, the % increases.  The Minelab Go Find 60 currently has an MAP which is 45% lower than MSRP.

It is in the Manufacturers best interest to get detectors out of the factory as soon as possible. They do their financials on a "sell into" basis.  Once a distributor or dealer orders a detector and the factory ships it, they book the revenue.  For this reason, distributor and dealer agreements typically require the purchase of a minimum level of stock from the manufacturer.

When you put all this together, life for "brick and mortar" dealers - who mostly started in an era of exclusive territories with a ban on "mail order" - has gotten very tough. Some dealers have tried to get sales by advertising detectors at below MAP either on their website or Craigslist, by describing them as used or demo when they were in fact new stock. I saw one such ad on Craigslist in another state for an SDC2300 at hundreds of $ below MAP.  The listing was a fairy tale about how the detector was one that the guy had bought for his brother for a trip to Alaska but that the brother couldn't go - so now he was selling his bro's detector. I corresponded with the guy and found out that he was in fact a dealer and that the detector actually was new.  I guess Minelab found out however, because I contacted the guy a few months later and he told me that he was no longer a ML dealer! He had violated his dealer agreement by placing an ad for a new detector at below MAP (he probably also was committing fraud by lying in his ad).

I suspect that in order to keep dealers in business, the manufacturers will have to streamline their distribution, in some cases maybe to the point of shipping direct to customers - this would be manufacturer (or perhaps distributor) shipping directly to the dealer's customer when the dealer makes a "non local" sale or when it is a model which the dealer is not required to stock (I Have seen evidence of this on various forum posts). When your dealers are having to sell at ever lower prices to get the sale, the manufacturer has to take some of the pain by lowering the dealers costs of doing business if they want to keep the dealers going.  Maybe reducing the distributor base is part of the way the manufacturers reduce their costs of supporting "mom and pop" dealers (this last bit is pure speculation on my part).

All of the above may play a part in the decision Whites made.  Still, it's a sad thing.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Funny thing is,,,White's already had 2 detectors that performed,,,MXT and TDI pro--- just either or the weight/ ergonomics and power consumption needed improving.

They have for whatever reason stayed away from Li pro power supplies.

If the TDI pro was put in a lighter weight more modern looking housing,,, with lower power consumption -- a winner.
And if such a detector could have been priced even say $1200--- a real hit

MXT,, the same thing.

Not hard to do.

And looking at what the competition was offering-- this too needs to be studied,,,dumb not to.

Some awfully good talent right here,, who visit and post on this forum,,, and I'll bet if they were included in the design and engineering of some of the future detectors--- they would have gladly helped.

The ole cliche 2 heads are better than 1,,, definitely applies.

And when you peruse detector forums ---- most of the info is staring them right in the face.....

Dilek,, know this,, I'm sure of it.

We need to see more Dileks and fewer April fools joke video.

And remember my earlier comment-- logistically lacking??

They need to start doing videos with their detectors in use and add to their site-- I don't see any listed.
Folks before they purchase like to see detector in action,, gives them better idea(s) of what to expect.

Get with the digital age,, and fast.
Don't rely totally on purchasers to do this work for you.

And why in the world,, did they wait so long to challenge the At Pro???
Should have rolled out a challenge at least 3 years ago.
At Pro flame left unchallenged got even brighter,, and when a fire gets to burning hotter,, much harder to put out or get under control.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2016 04:16PM by tnsharpshooter.

I knew Jimmy from Marin County and his son...he must be like 90 years old now? We took over his business he wanted someone to keep a store open. I worked at a Pharmacy at the time and the owner knew how l loved to hunt so we took a section of the store and I sold Whites detectors. It was a cool setup and I got to use any unit I wanted and all of the different coils. Jimmy was a nice guy and he would come in and tell me great stories and turn me on to some of the places to hunt in Marin and San Francisco. I have to say I don't really like Whites as a company and they hurt themselves with these changes....Is Jimmy still alive? I left Marin about 13 years ago and his health was not that great he was in his 70s..

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Sad to see Jimmy Go..

He was always there through the years..

Like a Fixture for Whites..

He was instrumental in getting alot of the Models Perfected..

Seems he had a hand in the 4900..that was a flat out relic digger back in the day when I couldn't afford a 6000..!!

Sad news Indeed..



Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Will the local single-line detector dealer go the way of the local bookstore - close up shop? Will the multi-line brick-n-mortar detector shop be next? Or do you only get the axe if you complain about the parent company's pricing policies? It appears that White's isn't keeping up with changing times.

Seems to me, the sales system using MAP is antiquated and an inefficient method to sell detectors. Why are detectors so much different than selling toasters or LCD TVs? Do you have to call a local dealer personally to buy a toaster -- so I can get the hidden "real" price? Or do dealers advertise their best prices online, with free shipping for purchases over $99, and up-sale me with discounted accessories all to entice me to buy (and buy more than I need)? Yeah, they do. And it works.

In an open market not under MAP, the company's per unit profit margin shrinks some, but it is likely increased sales due to a wider market brought about by selling directly to the customer (allowing the free market to control the price) will boost profits for the parent company over the long haul.

If I want a toaster I don't shop at a store that only sells one brand - Oster or Black 'n Decker. I go to a multi-line store that sells all brands - and if they won't give me the best price, I go elsewhere (I'll just take the best internet price and skip the local store. The local store is just for "looking" not buying). Selling books, detectors, or toasters at a price point that is not reasonable due to artificial price constraints will cause the market to look elsewhere. Customers will gravitate toward another detector line that is cheaper (perhaps from an overseas location) if it competes well in the market place. In the case of White's, competition will reduce sales, pricing is better elsewhere, the company dies if it doesn't adapt (killed many mom 'n pop shops - could kill off White's too).

Unless a detector is considered (perceived) worthy of the cost (a good value) most people aren't going to buy - and White's hasn't much in their current line that is noteworthy. They need to take a long look at themselves - are they are being left in the dust, are they listening to the detecting community? Once a company is perceived to be out-of-touch and antiquated - the company's sales will drop, the company heads into a death spiral - from which there is no recovery.

If White's sold their detectors at cost + some profit% to the dealers, the dealers could sell in at any price they choose, as long as they meet their profit margin. Everyone wins. The dealers can advertise whatever the price they want. Dealers who sell new detectors near cost aren't going to last long. The free market is cruel but fair.

john

I started with a White's Gold Master back in 1975 and became a White's Dealer in California the early 90's so I did a lot of business with Jimmy back then and went with Jimmy detecting in England. Jimmy always had time to spend with his Dealers and was just one heck of a guy. He was probably responsible for more White's detector sales than over the years than any other single person. As a once Die Hard White's user, I really hated to see White's decline and have been less than thrilled with many, if not most of White's more recent releases. Sad to see a company go from being at the top to being a an also ran. I still keep a couple of White's machines in my arsenal but I don't see myself buying any new White's detectors in the future.

Tom, my sentiments exactly. Like you, and many others who have posted here, I am a die-hard White's loyalist. Their fantastic customer service certainly kept me hanging on much longer than justified, which I will be forever appreciative of, but you're right, they just haven't kept up with the times. I bought several of their top of the line models all through the 80's and 90's and each model was a huge leap forward in capability. It took forever for them to come out with the V3i and when they did, I jumped on that bandwagon and was sorely disappointed. It was when I first realized they had slipped. It's only gotten worse since. Their finest machine and the pinnacle of functional design, imho, is still the MXT series.

My main thought after reading Jimmy's post on his website, is how sad I feel for White's and what seems to be the passing of a once great company. It's hard to watch especially since it's mostly self-inflicted. Kind of like a once great athlete, surrounded by his trophies of past glories, drinking himself to death. It may not be too late, but I fear that it is. White's may still avoid crashing on the rocks but only if they start listening to their customers and giving them what they want. The detector community is really quite sophisticated (just look here) and White's should stop treating us like babies and tap into the decades-long experience in detecting that many of us have, and give us machines that have real performance and stop worrying about marketing. Funny thing is that if a company puts out a superior product, eventually the word gets out and the marketing will take care of itself.

White's, and Jimmy, thanks for the good memories, especially the heyday that I remember well from the late 1970's through about 2000. Those were magical times for White's and the hobby in general.

Nowadays I'm not sure the White's DR Pro is a joke. Could be they're testing the waters to see if there's enough interest to go into production.

Times change. It seems Whites needs to get themselves some bright new talent. Good luck to them on that. But if they think the key to success is flooding the box stores with Prizms or Coinmasters or what ever they are called right now then I doubt Whites and I will be crossing paths. Good luck Jimmy! Enjoy your retirement.

Tom Slick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nowadays I'm not sure the White's DR Pro is a
> joke. Could be they're testing the waters to see
> if there's enough interest to go into production.
>

$2 in production costs and retail for $700 should provide plenty of margin for the dealers. Maybe a Whites LRL line might be next.

In all seriousness I would be a little concernced if I was one of the brick and mortar dealers as well as the regional distributors that will probably face elimination or consolidation. If they carry more than Whites and different types of gear like gold panning and sluices, etc. it might not be be so bad. But if I relied heavily on Whites sales I would start looking for a replacement line. I thought I read earlier today they have gone through three CEOs in recent history. I don't see it in this thread. But actions speak louder than words and that sounds a seriously dysfuntional management team. I hope they treat their regular employees well through these times. Judging by recent events with losing key employees and now Sierra, Whites is apparently not loyal or even listening to the very people that helped them succeed.

The MAP system is wveruwhere in electronic goods. Have a look at thia canon SLR camera on Amazon. Lots of dealers - price the same everywhere.

[www.amazon.com]

We are fortunate as buyers that in our hobby, dealers will deal directly by phone and email at less than MAP. Of course, that's bad for the health of the dealer network unless the manufacturers cut the dealer's purchase price.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Sad to see Jimmy go, He was a inspiration in this Hobby. But not a Real Big surprise, I would go to the local Dealers for my Whites Detector purchase and they all wanted the ridiculous Full Retail Price.
I asked for them to match The East Coast Internet price, and they said NO, and Shut the door on me.

It does not take a Intelligent person to figure out that this type of Business practices devastated sales on the West Coast Territories.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2016 02:07PM by Rob in (ca).

To me, this looks like the end. it's a big step in the wrong direction.

Sad to see him go but at his age time to smell the roses ...certainly a big loss for Whites as he certainly was a plus for the company and a legend in the hobby...wish him good luck in his ventures.....

Johnnyanglo said, "(The local store is just for "looking" not buying).

That is true for me as well. Because my local Whites dealer does the same thing as Rob In CA's store does. Since they won't deal, I coon finger them in the store and if I want to buy one, I go to one of the online dealers I like to do business with. I will say this, I least I have a local Whites dealer. I can't say that for any of the other brands.

Jim has been personally helpful to me several times in the past. Never met a guy so oriented on the customer as he is. I wish only the best for him.

HH
Mike

Sad news for sure, both Jimmy and his son.

A good friend of Jimmy shared the news with me about a month ago, and my local dealer friend was no longer a dealer about the same time.

Business's sometimes go sour, relationships, marriages, friendships it happens and will continue.

I wish the best for Jimmy and his son, their families as well and wish the best for White's. Jimmy would wish the same for White's, and so will White's with Jimmy.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 07:20PM by Old California.

A shame when there is a divorce in the family...no matter what the reason.
Anybody got a copy if that letter because as of now it seems to have been wiped off the net?


Never mind...found it.

[metaldetectorhelp.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2016 04:32PM by diggwr27.

Fired is such a negative term. Some times companies need to change their direction........ we are seeing more of it. There are a lot of ways to say good bye to a great employee.....look at CEOs? Im sure Jimmy was hurt...... its a big embarrassment if you didnt see it coming. But now days ...... its pretty common. You have to be visible and productive........ but even that cant save you sometimes.

Dew

in the final analysis,it's ALWAYS about the money!
NO ONE is in business to "give you a break"..everybody pays!
ass,gas,or grass!..no body rides for free!
harsh,but there it is!

(h.h.!)
j.t.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2016 01:51AM by jmaryt.

It is not about having to let people go in business, it is how you go about doing it. After everything, Jimmy gone, and not a public word of thanks? I think White's could have done better.

Yes Steve maybe a Lifetime Award or something is in Order..

Maybe even a Simple dinner and Gold Watch..

Hate to see people used up the forgotten..

He probably made Whites a lot of Money..

that's the way it is though ain't it?

Reminds me of a Quote!

There are two kinds of people, those who do the work and those who take the credit. Try to be in the first group; there is less competition there.

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Yea it's not the fact that whites had to change but the way they remembered all he did for the brand by not remembering his efforts.
Me personally am not and never will be a whites fan. To many great,deep and user friendly machines out there.

------------"Cz's still bad to the bone".------------
Living on a big ass Astroid.
The woman that got my rib,I want it back.

Keith Southern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes Steve maybe a Lifetime Award or something is
> in Order..
>
> Maybe even a Simple dinner and Gold Watch..
>
> Hate to see people used up the forgotten..
>
> He probably made Whites a lot of Money..
>
> that's the way it is though ain't it?
>
> Reminds me of a Quote!
>
> There are two kinds of people, those who do the
> work and those who take the credit. Try to be in
> the first group; there is less competition there.
>
> Keith


yes keith! this is VERY DISCONCERTING!. .jimmy had a long run.
he was very fair to a ton of people,and jimmy knew how to sell detectors.
been lookin'at charlie garrett's stuff lately,and gotta tell ya,if i can just get over
the 'bell tone" (yuk!),might wind up chasin' one!..(been painting 'em a different color)
these days,and they no longer look like someone "puked" on 'em.i'm just saying'


(h.h.!)
j.t.