What does the success of Nokta/Makro mean for other detector manufacturers

These Nokta/Makro machines seem to perform as well if not better than a lot of flagship units from other companies and have excellent build quality at substantially less cost..

Does that mean we can expect lower prices on competitors machines? Will the competition be able to compete or will production have to be moved off our shores in order for US companies to compete?

HH
John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2016 07:43PM by DirtyJohn.

I am not sure of the answer here. I can say I saw a video recently,,seems for example Xp uses a lot of robotics in making parts for their detectors. I think I even read they only have 32 total employees,,I don't know if this number is current though-- hard to date video I watched.

I think the bottom line is--- all manufacturers to remain competitive will have to pull out the stops,,,things like using robotic arms,,more advanced technology to cut overall manufacturing costs will have to be assumed.

I deep down really think one thing some of the USA manufacturers should have done is brought cell phone makers technology/ engineering into the mix with some of their detectors.

We are liking our electronics it seems smaller and smaller-- and doing the above would have definitely inched the USA industry more towards this.

I think we can say now for sure--- better not stand in one spot too long these days,,,being flat footed can cost ya--- the manufacturer.

Not a damn thing...Go to any of the other forums and toot your horn saying how good this detector is and see how fast you get booted off...

Good Q.

Detectors have been coming down in price for a few years ever since "Garrett" upset the apple cart with a $179.00 dollar Ace 150 that gob-smacked seasoned Pro's with it's performance.
Other makers have followed suit: Teknetics Digitek, Fisher F22, F44, Whites Pro Master to name just a few.
Nowadays we can buy a very good detector with a lot of 'bells n whistles' unheard of several years ago for around $ 749.00
This is the way the Industry is going.
It's just a couple of makers that insist on asking "Crazy Eddie Prices!" XP and Minelab.
Yes. No doubt these makers are feeling the pinch of the New Breed of makers such as "Nokta", "Makro", "Sorex" "Detech" "Golden Mask" and a host of Eastern European makers etc etc.

It's good for us and will 'force' makers to create better detectors, better performing and more reliable with a host of New features we didn't know we needed!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2016 08:33PM by Des D.

Strong US Dollar - weak Turkish Lira.

3 years ago $100 bought 180 Turkish Lira, today it buys almost 300. If your costs are in Lira and your sales are in $$$, then you can sell cheap and still do well.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

William Monday Wrote:
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> Not a damn thing...Go to any of the other forums
> and toot your horn saying how good this detector
> is and see how fast you get booted off...

Yep some forums are in denial. Really it shows what type of detectorists some are. When you can walk behind any machine, any, and find stuff their machines just plain could not see you have to defend that 2000-2500 dollar girlfriend hung on your arm, denial happens. When you hear a detectorist say something is hunted out, there must have been a Turkish machine ran over it.... Really once the machines click with someone, you won't believe it.

If Minelab brought out a lightweight etrac with the processing speed equal to or faster of the racers/deus etc at an inbetween price folk would queue up to buy them, i know i would...

ghound Wrote:
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> If Minelab brought out a lightweight etrac with
> the processing speed equal to or faster of the
> racers/deus etc at an inbetween price folk would
> queue up to buy them, i know i would...

That's EXACTLY what I told 2 censecutive Boards of Directors at Minelab and as events turned out, the original Minelab Board never got the chance to act on it as the 2nd Board of Codan took over and being absolutely 100% "clueless" about the Company they acquired and in their infinite wisdom kicked out, fired, laid off, the very people who knew what to do and from frustration quit as well.
They ignored my advice and also laid me off.

Prior to all of that the original Minelab Board did listen to what I had "to say" and as a result we got "Explorer" "E Trac" "Sovereign GT" "Safari" "X-Terra"
I was "against" She Tea Ex and had nothing to do with "Go Figure" although I gave the original Minelab Board the Specs etc for 'a beginner model' in 1999
Years later I was a tad upset when the X-Terra was not in any way targeted at the young and beginners.
"We are Serious Detecting" I was told

Now look at their website and "Go Figure"

IMO,

Whites-in trouble. Their economy line is not doing well at all. Then they bring in the Mx Sport which had a few problems right out of the starting gate. They can get back on track if they start REALLY listening to their customers needs.

Garrett-is in "coast mode". Their world-wide sales of ace's and at-pros will sustain them for quite a few years longer. But then what? Will it be too late for them at that point to catch-up?

Fisher-is at a stand-still. No real growth except for their economy line, which doesn't seem to be breaking records. The f-75 upgrade debacle and tight market has made this giant gun-shy. They need to step-up, or they may be the first out.

Minelab-asleep at the wheel. For far too long this king of the mountain has rested on it's laurels. A failed economy line coupled with tight foreign competition has made this giant go into a deep slumber. They will be around but if this giant doesn't wake-up, reduce it's pricing structure, and create new products, then they will never bounce back.

Nokta/Makro-is changing the game. They are doing ALMOST everything right. Their customer service is really spot on, their electronics seem sound. They need to work on making their TID system stable and effective at depth, improve ergonomics, and invest in some quality utility parts(bolts for one), and they will steal the market right out from all of them. I hate to sound like a fan boy, but the above statements are true from what I have seen.

Just my opinion.

Des,

Should Minelab be able to create a fast recovery CTX 3030?
I have been confused about why they don't put a faster processor in the unit unless there are technical difficulties with doing so.

-Don

Don71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Des,
>
> Should Minelab be able to create a fast recovery
> CTX 3030?
> I have been confused about why they don't put a
> faster processor in the unit unless there are
> technical difficulties with doing so.
>
> -Don

I know this was not asked of me but I think that the Minelabs probably do have a fast processor.

They just have so much more info to process compared to other detectors. Maybe they could incorporate a multi-core processor (some version of hyper threading) but I would imagine that would increase the costs significantly not to mention it would probably need some type of additional cooling beyond just a heat sink.

Imagine running an old version of windows on a modern computer. It would be lightning fast when compared to a modern operating system.

HH
John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2016 03:02AM by DirtyJohn.

ML wants to sell thousands of $10,000 detectors a year.

First Texas wants to sell many hundreds of thousands of $100 - $1000 detectors a year - and they are doing so.

The Turks want to sell the best detectors that they can design at attractive $Prices and enjoy the benefits of a weak Turkish Lira.

None of this is wrong or bad - but not all of it will succeed.

We want new breathtaking developments in unmasking, depth in the worst ground, ease of use.

Who will give it to is? --- nobody - not without new technology. SINGLE frequency VLF has hit the wall - we are just playying different tunes on a limited range of audio output frequencies. Traditional multi freq - either Whites or Fisher 2 freq or ML church organ multi freq, have gone as far as they can go. Arranging the deckchairs on a leaky boat.

Really new is the only way forward.

Only three designers in the last few years have shown real progress. Bruce Candy in OZ, Alain Loubet in France and Dave Johnson in the US.

I don't know, but I think next year will be interesting - just sayin'. P.S. - my money is on Dave.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2016 03:21AM by lytle78.

The other company's I would think that they let go if the American market and may take a great product to trump the deus and the racer and the soon to be impact. I would think Fisher is really going to have to pull out a never before unit that is a hybrid and no one has a machine like it. But I don't care if they do anything I'm happy with the racer and deus. I love how you can program the deus and with the racer it is almost turn on and go.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

William Monday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not a damn thing...Go to any of the other forums
> and toot your horn saying how good this detector
> is and see how fast you get booted off...

Huh? Why? Which forum? (The Ignoramus Forum?) "Booted off" for what and by who?

If true, why would anyone want to be a member of such a forum? FN stupid.

Seriously, WHICH FORUM?!

Dean

A few more commments here..

Cradle to grave time on any certain model detector--- seems nowadays this very questionable,,probably shorter IMO

Also capital requirements for R&D have to be smartly spent,,,meaning it wouldn't be good for a manufacturer to take a longer while investing in a certain model(s) detector(s),, and while this process plays out--- low and behold another manufacturer produces a unit doing/ have the same or many similar qualities/ characteristics of the detector (( where boatloads of $$ and time)) have been invested.

This is where Xp put the screws to some.
How long has the Deus been released in Europe???

And what manufacturer has answered???

Now remember,,,,take the Deus,,look at its characteristics--- lightweight,,good separator, great iron handling ability, wireless, not overly expensive, 5 year warranty, small/ collapsible, Internet update able, transferable warranty, sold in different packages, handles medium and higher mineral well, manufacturer provides updates ( so far at no additional cost) and seems to not suffer from many malfunctions in the field- reliable.

A lot of positives here for one model detector.

And where is the challenger???

I'm sure there will be one in the future,,but when???

Not bad for a relatively new detector manufacturer,,Xp that is.

[www.xpmetaldetectorsamericas.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2016 05:03AM by tnsharpshooter.

Garrett is safe. Their AT line is nearing "cult status" They appeal to the outdoorsy relic hunters mostly. That's their niche market. Facebook and YouTube have a lot to do with the AT Pro / AT Gold phenomenon.

Minelab is safe. There hasn't been anything remotely close to touching the stability and spot on target ID at depth that the FSB and FSB2 Minelabs have. Minelabs niche markets are "silver coin" hunters and serious gold prospectors. I don't think any other manufacturer has a leg up on Minelab when it comes to prospecting PI machines. The overwhelming majority of serious park silver coin hunters swing a Minelab Etrac or CTX3030. I'd even say Minelab is king of the beaches with Excalibur/Sovereigns outnumbering CZ users 5 to 1. The Turkish machines to me feel like relic units and are too sparky and lack the target ID accuracy and buttery smoothness that coin shooters are after.

First Texas needs a hit. The T2/F75 upgrade was a step in the right direction. The Turkish machines seem to be based off First Texas products, just taken to the next level in terms of audio and user customization.

Whites needs a hit in a big way. The MXT is the only Whites I'd consider using. The 80s Atari audio tones that Whites has been using with slow response is unacceptable to many potential users. They seem to be living off their glory days. I wouldn't be suprised if they are out of business within a decade if they do not change with the times.

I'm convinced that outside of this forum and maybe the Findmall brand specific forums, that there isn't a lot of interest in the Makro/Nokta machines. And there for sure isn't a market for them used. I could get more money for a 20 year old Whites rainbow XLT with 2 coils than I could for a nearly brand new Nokta and 2 coils. That I speak from fact and experience. I got more for a Whites 5900 with just one coil last year than I did for either the Racer Pro package or Relic with 2 coils. They may be going places and headed in the right direction but they still have a ways to go to catch the big guns when it comes to resell demand and value. They may be the best thing you've ever hunted with when compared to other machines from the bigger brands, but those other machines will bring more value to the used market and sell quicker due to demand for them. This may change in a few years but as of now, this is the way it is. Take it from somebody that has lost their butt on two of them after buying new. Suffer to say I learned my lesson and if I have interest in a future model, I will wait on some poor sap to put theirs on the market used; that way if I end up not liking it for whatever reason, I wont lose as much.

I really liked the Minelab CTX and catch myself watching the classifieds for a used on at a good price. I would like to have another one of those. With the tone bin assignments, you can make your own tone break points and customize the tones to be whatever is the most pleasing to your ears instead of having to deal with what the factory set. I think a lot of people would be shocked at what they could find with them if they set them up the way they are setting up the Makro machines with tone break and ignoring the ID numbers. Put that 6 inch coil on there in heavy trash and iron and dig everything in the tone ranges you setup.

The MX Sport is Whites newest offering. Yeah, it has had a sluggish start with the firmware stuff, but I can tell you out of the gate, that this is one of the best VLF machines I have used in a while. I have been rather happy with mine. I've not posted much on it because I've been out finding stuff with it. The smallest coil they make for it as of now, is the 6x10 coil. The 6x10 is nothing to take lightly on this machine and is quite a combo. If they make a smaller round coil for it and do it right, it will be one of the most rounded out VLF machines to hit the market. As it is, it is already a heck of a detector to be in the arsenal. This is one machine that can handle relic hunting, coin hunting, and jewelry hunting with some tip top performance. In the past, a machine would usually excel in one area and just be mediocre in others. This one is well rounded out. With the ability to go in the water...ohhh boy.

I agree with the resale value of Nokta/Makro units. I took a bath selling my Racer and original Fors Core . I do have the Racer 2 and it fills my needs much more than the original Racer did. It's geared much more towards coin hunting than relics compared to Racer 1. If I ever decide to get rid of the Racer 2 I might just give it to some young person stating out vs taking another bath. There are used Makro/Racer units all over the classifieds. These detectors do not appeal to everyone. They remind me of the F75. A dealer told me one time you are either going to love the F75 or your going to hate it, and it will not take you long to figure out which one. Unfortunately it takes time to learn these detectors and the language that they speak.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2016 09:57AM by goodmore.

goodmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with the resale value of Nokta/Makro
> units. I took a bath selling my Racer and original
> Fors Core . I do have the Racer 2 and it fills my
> needs much more than the original Racer did. It's
> geared much more towards coin hunting than relics
> compared to Racer 1. If I ever decide to get rid
> of the Racer 2 I might just give it to some young
> person stating out vs taking another bath. There
> are used Makro/Racer units all over the
> classifieds. These detectors do not appeal to
> everyone. They remind me of the F75. A dealer told
> me one time you are either going to love the F75
> or your going to hate it, and it will not take you
> long to figure out which one. Unfortunately it
> takes time to learn these detectors and the
> language that they speak.

Agree, Nokta/Makro are niche machines. The Impact and it's performance/acceptance by more main stream users will tell the tale is Nokta/Makro can rise about niche market status and sales levels.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.

Goodmore that was talked about a lot. You went on several forums and told all of them vehemently you had bought a dead fish, a piece of junk, something that was not good. Then tried to sell it LOL. Not really understanding what you were doing to yourself and the resale..................... That was funny.

Jack Flynn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Goodmore that was talked about a lot. You went on
> several forums and told all of them vehemently you
> had bought a dead fish, a piece of junk, something
> that was not good. Then tried to sell it LOL. Not
> really understanding what you were doing to
> yourself and the resale..................... That
> was funny.

The main reason dealers have Used "trade in" Racers/Relics for sale is the poor person to person resale value. Dealers have a better chance of getting top dollar on resale on "excellent barely used" machines so offer some good trade in deals.

Tom

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a democracy, it is difficult to win fellow citizens over to your own side, or to build public support to remedy injustices that remain all too real when you fundamentally misunderstand how they see the world.

Definitely a difference between a POS detector and one that doesn't suit or fit one's needs or interest.

I mean some folks bought Racer1 detector and went out and tried it for deep turf cleaner ground for coin hunting--- like they were pitting it up against etrac/CTX,,,and were it seems disappointed.

I don't think anyone ever stated this was the detector's strong suit.

And now watch some of the comments and actions taken with Nokta Relic--- hint-- it's strong suit is relics

Seems folks are always seeking the one " magic" wand.

Let me say,,metal detecting is work,,,exercise and takes time to do.

You can't sit in your house, auto or RV and find anything,, my knees can speak to this as of late,, but my endurance is building since more sitting around due to winter time.

We have it looks like a nice day here ahead,,,before what looks like another deluge tomorrow.

May have to get out and see what surfaces with some what I call it stick time.

Wish a few of you lived closer to me--- would be a blast to mingle and hunt with you.

I guess I look at this differently than most others. After a 22 year career in the USAF I prefer to buy American made products. I have flown to Turkey many times and have seen their cities first hand. They would not be a country I would want to lay down my hard earned money for a detector that was probably reverse engineered from a T2. I remember the initial influx of Chinese goods in the 1980's. We all marveled at the lower cost we could get these items. Decade after decade their manufacturing economy grew and we closed plants all over the US. Now look where we are......Of course metal detecting manufacturers are on a much smaller footprint. I like being able to call the factory (Fisher, Garrett, Whites) and actually speak to the person repairing my machine. Have you ever called Turkey ? Sure you can call a Makro distributor who acts as the spokesman for the company but it's not the same thing. You decide for yourself.............
Our US companies will make changes and come out with new products, thats what competition is all about. If we don't support them maybe down the road you will be faced with getting your detectors from overseas ! I love the hobby of medal detecting and will not forget the value that must be placed on American made machines.

Quote

Daniel Tn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I really liked the Minelab CTX and catch myself watching the classifieds for a used on at a good price. I would like to have another one of those. With the tone bin assignments, you can make your own tone break points and customize the tones to be whatever is the most pleasing to your ears instead of having to deal with what the factory set. I think a lot of people would be shocked at what they could find with them if they set them up the way they are setting up the Makro machines with tone break and ignoring the ID numbers. Put that 6 inch coil on there in heavy trash and iron and dig everything in the tone ranges you setup.

You got that right Daniel

that's why I'm on my 3rd one now and am keeping THIS one until something so far advanced comes out that it pales in comparison. Not only does it perform at top level in the above manner as you describe but it's also the Apex of modern trash hunting, very deep, water proof, sees thru mineral, etc. etc. = nothing on the market on the same playin field. Coupled with units like the Deus, FR, F75/T2, F19/G2, etc. and you have a VLF/FBS combo that is deadly in most any dirt you hunt where a PI isn't needed.

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only three designers in the last few years have
> shown real progress. Bruce Candy in OZ, Alain
> Loubet in France and Dave Johnson in the US.
>
> I don't know, but I think next year will be
> interesting - just sayin'. P.S. - my money is on
> Dave.

2xs that Rick

I have to disagree a bit Daniel. Nok/Maks make good VLF prospecting machines. They are well received and spoken of on ALL of the forums that are more geared toward prospecting. They have a good following on all of the Aussie forums. Many, many detectorists aren't even members of a forum and have no desire to be. So, forums are only a small window in to the MD world.

The American market (coin shooting especially) is only a small part of the metal detecting market yet we seem to scream the loudest when a manufacturer doesn't make something the way we think it should be made. The best example of this is in the prospecting detector market when Minelab introduced the SDC-2300. A water proof PI unit that, ergonomically, leaves a lot to be desired. The American detector prospectors just couldn't believe that Minelab would introduce such a unwieldy, though excellent, machine. Turns out, to the surprise of some, that the largest gold prospecting market in the world is wet, rainy... Africa! Minelabs wasn't even thinking about the American market! They still aren't. The GPZ7000 is very difficult to find here (America) new as they are all being shipped to Africa. The next BIG market will be China. America certainly isn't the only market and probably not even the largest market.

So, to answer the OP- competition is always good. Keeps the manufacturers striving to make better products. Hopefully, it will wake up the American manufactures who have been, and still are IMHO, asleep at the wheel or in coast mode.

Dean

All that maters is we have access to better machines I can't wait for the US to catch up time is running out of places to hunt

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Dean -- All I'm going to say is try listing one for resell and see what happens. I never said they were bad machines; just that there wasn't a demand for them in resell and they don't retain a lot of their resell value. It may be different a few years from now. In archery, there was a company that reminds me a lot of Nokta/Makro. In archery, there were the big 4 that everybody knew. Hoyt, Mathews, PSE, and BowTech. There were other brands but they never could get on the same platform as the big guys. Several years ago a company called Elite came on the scene. Nobody had heard of them and for all intents and purposes, their bows looked like a copy of the latest most popular bows from the big 4. That was the image they had for a while. Their high point was their customer service. If you had a problem or question, you could call a number and actually speak to a real person and sometimes you could even call and the owner would be on the other end and just shoot the breeze with you for a while and take care of any questions or problems. It had a small business, we care about our customers feel to it. A lot of times they would next day air a replacement part to you or a new bow. Well they caught on in the archery world and started producing their own DNA platform bows and now they have taken off big time. I dare say they are now in the top 4 and have edged one of the others off the platform. I had one of their bows back when they hadn't caught on well and the resell on them was like these detectors. Nobody really wanted them until the price was really low, despite having a lifetime transferable warranty. Now days, you can just about buy a brand new one for what the used ones bring on the market. Even the older ones have went up in price. I look for Nokta/Makro to be the same way if they break out from under the niche detector canopy and stay on the market.

Nokta/Fors are a classic example of what happens when you rapidly introduce successive versions of what is the same basic platform. Enthusiasts buy in early, then quickly find that their almost new machine isn't the latest and greatest when a new model is introduced. The general marketplace gets confused over all the different detectors and the early adopters take it in the shorts when they try to sell.

Mind you, the whole US detector market is really weak right now. Used machine prices are way down and stuff moves slowly if at all.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

"the whole US detector market is really weak right now. Used machine prices are way down"

First Texas pricing the new green T2-Classic at 500 US Dollars possibly has some effect, it's got to hit the used prices of F70's / F75s / T2's, and if the top-end machine is cheap, then all below it will be pressured, I think.