NASA is taking a beating!

Got up early today to brew a pot of coffee and debug a misbehaving macro infested Excel spreadsheet when I heard the Fox and Friends crew interviewing (tongue in cheek of course) the NASA scientist Richard Hoover about his article in the recent March issue of the Journal of Cosmology describing his finding of microbe like structures within rare meteorites. As expected, they painted the impression that he was just another intellectual crack-pot fostering his brand of a UFO conspiracy theory. This led to a short discussion of NASA's recently failed launch of the "Glory" weather satellite aboard the Tauras XL rocket that crashed into the ocean earlier this week. One of the Fox commentators suggested that the entire NASA program be scrapped, and that elicited a pause, and smile, from the others.

Has NASA been placed in the same bucket as Teachers, public unions (Teachers unions that is) and the Department of Education?

Sorry Tom as I suspect this will elicit some emotional responses but I believe you and I share a common position on such things.

I sent Tom a PM on this. Does Tom D. work for NASA.....yes. Do I have the highest respect for Tom D.....yes........Am I going to soft peddle a probable half a billion dollars loss due to negligence because Tom D. works for NASA.......HELL NO. I am a citizen & taxpayer of this country. Heads need to roll at NASA and Orbital Sciences for negligence. Here, read some of the story:

It is the second consecutive time that NASA has encountered the problem with the Taurus XL rocket built by Orbital Sciences Corp. of Dulles, Va.
The failed mission cost $424 million, the space agency said.

NASA scientists believe the launch on Friday failed because the satellite's protective cover, which opens like a clamshell, did not separate as expected.
It marks the SECOND TIME IN A ROW that NASA has encountered a problem with the protective shell separating from the satellite. The space agency's previous Taurus XL launch attempt on Feb. 24, 2009, carrying another Earth science spacecraft, dubbed the Orbiting Carbon Observatory, also failed to reach orbit because of lack of separation.
"All indications are that the satellite and the rocket are in the southern Pacific Ocean somewhere." Although the satellite probably will never be recovered.

Since 1994, Orbital Sciences has attempted to launch a Taurus XL rocket a total of nine times. It has been successful in six of those attempts.

"Obviously, this is a terrific disappointment and we feel bad for letting NASA … down," said Barron Beneski, an Orbital Sciences spokesman. "People have dedicated years of their lives into this."

Note: it really helps that Orbital Sciences.......'feels bad'.....and where was NASA's oversight this launch, in regards to the previous Taurus XL launch failure, with the rocket's 'protective cover'?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2011 05:09AM by TerraDigger.

This is a tough call ..... I'm not sure that there is really a RIGHT answer ...... Is this negligence ? .....Or is it new territory that is being explored building this protective cover ? ....... How long does it take to perfect anything ? ...... Is there another way of experimenting with this cover short of firing a missile in the air ? ........There's more to it than what meets the eye , I'm sure .... If it were a simple act of negligence it would be easy to just fire the company and move on to someone who can build a better cover ...... It's not that easy .... Jim

Same rocket.........same mechanisim.....same failure............x 2. Once is plausible.....twice in a row...is negligence in my book..........it's a mechanisim to open the protective cover..........not a newly developed Warp Drive engine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2011 07:32PM by TerraDigger.

i dont care how many times we fail !!!!!!! we should continue these and all efforts to explore and utilize space!!!!!!! i thought the space shuttle was supposed to be replaced by a new vehicle....not just scraped all-together????????????
chuck(seeker41)

If Nasa can't do a successful mission perhaps the Chinese can get it done.
Since other industries have made their way that route, why not Space Agency?
Teachers Union and Fox can go to China too.

If we keep borrowing money from China , and continue to give them most of the stock in America , don't worry , we will be part of the United States of China before long !!.....Jim

Terra,
Didn't know it was the same company , same problem , same s_ _ _ , different day !!......That changes the game !!.....Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2011 11:27PM by synthnut.

Come on people, I'm sure NASA and the rocket manufacturer believed they had the problem fixed prior to authorizing this launch! Its science and with all the successes there are just as many failures. Granted, I don't agree with the notion that the satellite "may not be" recovered. That's a lot of money to let sink or fall into the hands of another country.

As far as Fox News goes... they are a bunch of idiots on that network... take it for what its worth.

The ONLY thing I like about China is their food! We need to stop sending work to them and keep it here in the states and let them sink within. That's the problem with this country, all the Republicans want to do is fight the Democrats and vice versa and nobody wants to do whats right for the country. And thats about all I'm gonna say on that subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2011 12:47AM by schultzie.

Schultzie,

Your quote

"All the Republicans want to do is fight the Democrats and vice versa and nobody wants to do whats right for the country" says it all brother.

It's sad.

Just take a look at what NASA's budget is in the grand scheme of things. Peanuts. I have been a space junkie since I was 9 ( 50 now). I say keep at it. I believe the space program may be one of the last avenues to attract our children to the sciences. I don't think it's promoted enough.

How many screw ups were there in these last 2 wars in addition to the Wall Street debacles that cost way more than this ?

Quote
therover61
I don't think it's promoted enough.

That's a fact! I wonder what could be done if they moved half the military's ad campaign to promote NASA and the sciences?

Interesting responses. Yes, Orbital Sciences is a private company.......not NASA.

Actually I am old enough to remember the TV live feeds from all the Apollo missions.
I find it difficult to believe back then we were fortunate enough to put men on the moon
yet now have failures getting out of the atmosphere or other malfunctions.
Seems like I heard the Saturn 5 rockets were much more powerful than the ones used now.
Very little computer power back then but the space program was responsible for most of the
modern technology these days.
Yes, there were several failures back then but now supposedly we have better science and technologies.
Perhaps we were more determined back then to do things right and now.....?
To me flying around in orbit pales to going to the moon yet maybe if I knew more about
what was going on, I would be more facinated.
As with other aspects of life, the gov has a relationship with Nasa so we can expect
different attitudes at any given time period.

seeker41 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i dont care how many times we fail !!!!!!! we
> should continue these and all efforts to explore
> and utilize space!!!!!!! i thought the space
> shuttle was supposed to be replaced by a new
> vehicle....not just scraped
> all-together????????????
> chuck(seeker41)


a very noble undertaking however,the american taxpayer (generally)
believes the money should be redirected elsewhere!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

The Orbiting Carbon Observatory, which is the precedeing failure to Glory satellite, in NASA's own words:

"The cost of the mission was $209 million; therefore, the incident was classified as a Type A mishap."

Mishap...........just love the choice of wording.......lets do the math........Orbiting Carbon Observatory+Glory Satellite= 643 million dollars. Probably more than that, as our government has a historical tendency to underestimate liabilities and overestimate assets.

Now for the best part...............PASADENA, Calif. – NASA has selected Orbital Sciences Corp. of Dulles, Va., to launch the Orbiting Carbon Observatory-2 (OCO-2) mission. The spacecraft will fly in February 2013 aboard a Taurus XL 3110 rocket launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

643 million dollars........hmmmmmmmm.........could have created a whole industry (Take your pick. There are several) in the U.S. for that amount.....and created thousands of long term jobs. Industry that actually creates revenue and taxes for the country But hey, why have that, when you can have satellites sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

I am sure this post will put me in the doghouse with lots of forum members here............but one has to ask the question.............when does the taxpayer get a break from this unbelievable waste and incompetence.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2011 08:15AM by TerraDigger.

TerraDigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Orbiting Carbon Observatory, which is the
> precedeing failure to Glory satellite, in NASA's
> own words:
>
> "The cost of the mission was $209 million;
> therefore, the incident was classified as a Type A
> mishap."
>
> Mishap...........just love the choice of
> wording.......lets do the math........Orbiting
> Carbon Observatory+Glory Satellite= 643 million
> dollars. Probably more than that, as our
> government has a historical tendency to





> underestimate liabilities and overestimate
> assets.
>
> Now for the best part...............PASADENA,
> Calif. – NASA has selected Orbital Sciences
> Corp. of Dulles, Va., to launch the Orbiting
> Carbon Observatory-2 (OCO-2) mission. The
> spacecraft will fly in February 2013 aboard a
> Taurus XL 3110 rocket launched from Vandenberg Air
> Force Base in California.
>
> 643 million dollars........hmmmmmmmm.........could
> have created a whole industry (Take your pick.
> There are several) in the U.S. for that
> amount.....and created thousands of long term
> jobs. Industry that actually creates revenue and
> taxes for the country But hey, why have that, when
> you can have satellites sitting at the bottom of
> the ocean.
>
> I am sure this post will put me in the doghouse
> with lots of forum members here............but one
> has to ask the question.............when does the
> taxpayer get a break from this unbelievable waste
> and incompetence.


your point is "absolutely" relevant to the discussion.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

"NASA has selected Orbital Sciences
> Corp. of Dulles, Va., to launch the Orbiting
> Carbon Observatory-2 (OCO-2) mission."

Seems to me if Orbital Sciences is a PRIVATE company, then NASA HAS created jobs in the private industry. At least the jobs are still here in the USA instead of outsourced to India or China.

How many companies have jumped ship for cheap labor and tax breaks via outsourcing ? Entire industries are gone due to that, so the debate about using that 600+ million to create an industry and jobs is moot in my opinion.

Is 600+ million dollars worth of satellites sitting at the bottom of the ocean a moot point? I think the point of a job is to create a product/service that works........not fails. And creating faulty products is ok?..........a long as it gives someone in the U.S. a job.......nevermind that the faulty product made in the USA puts an incredible financial loss on the taxpayers. OK.........I guess I see the business model differently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2011 01:24PM by TerraDigger.

OK...what about this. Why continue to subsidize tank makers (even though they may make the best tank in the world), if they are deemed useless when fighting wars in places like Afghanistan ? Why subsidize drone makers when drones kill innocent people. The product works perfectly...only when the conditions are such.

What's the difference ? Mine as well have some of them tanks or drones at the bottom of the ocean too.

Why not take some of the 22 Billion extra in the defense budget or the entitlement budgets and give to farm machinery makers who can make a better, more efficient product so we can actually PRODUCE more food instead of importing it ?

It is a moot point when, by the admission of the Congress, there is 400-500 BILLION dollars of waste in Medicare and Welfare fraud.

It's great when 'taxpayers' want things related to science cut, when they cannot comprehend these things actually helped in forging new designs for products like tanks, rockets, medical machinery, etc.

I couldn't agree with you more Therover61 in your statement above. I never said to cancel NASA. What I am saying is that there needs to be responsibility, and penalty when incompetence and faulty goods are foisted on the taxpayer. I don't care what government agency or private company is the culprit. When there is no longer any significant fiscal or management culpability in the use of taxpayers money, then you have what you described in your post above. This post happens to deal with NASA related failures, my thoughts would be similar if the posting subject dealt with other gov't agencies waste/incompetence. Or private corporation fraud e.g. banks.....wall street.....defense contractors etc.
The Country is broke..........the historical trend of wasteful/fraudulent spending needs to end if we wish to survive and have a viable country for our children/grand-children to live in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2011 08:26PM by TerraDigger.

A theological mind-set example:

The Space Shuttle program is 98.4% successful. A lot of the Nation looks upon this statistic as a "total failure". (We lost 2 orbiters in the last 30 years of the Shuttle program; hence, the 1.6% failure). And what do we..........as human beings..............'focus' upon? THE NEGATIVE! Mind you........very few folks focus on the 98.4% success rate.......................and....................even more importantly...............ALL of the attributes of major historical significance in the betterment of mankind through technological advancement. We..........as humans..........LOVE "negative". It is always demanded upon NASA to be 100% perfect............100% of the time. I agree...........one tiny error can be very costly. But......it must also be stated that Space is VERY dangerous.....and rockets are EXTREMELY complex....and also dangerous. I DO 'fault' NASA for failed PR.......IRT advertising and educating the public as to all of the spin-off's. But............then again............a budget was never set forth for PR. THAT HURTS!

In all of my schooling, financial investments, lifes decisions.........if only I could have ascertained a 98.4% success rate/grade! I would not look upon this as a "total failure".

The technological advances over the past fifty years have all been as a result of the space program. We would not be anywhere close to where we are now, without the advances of the people and programs associated with the space program. The first space capsule had less computing power than todays calculators. Go to the US patient web site and look at all the patients applied for by Nasa. It is a lot more than just a program.
It may not be in my lifetime but some day you will see the research touch every aspect of life. Health, fossil fuels, electronics, etc.... And it is close now.

Tom in SC

Terra....I hear ya. I know where you are coming from and you are correct about government waste and failures of programs.

I think for me, when there is a lot of research and development going into products or when there is cutting/bleeding edge technology or elements of danger, I can give it some slack. Especially when it leads to advancements in technology or better products.

NASA, development of weapons, defense technology, etc......some slack

Medicare and Welfare fraud, bloated government programs, etc....no slack.

The country is broke due to a lot of things. For me, the continued ability to print money and actually do so when we don't have any, in addition to constantly raising our debt ceiling is the major one. Consistently adhering to the 'Global Economy' and giving jobs away is another one.

Gonna stop now... I can see this thread really hitting lots of wonderful topics that it isn't supposed to !

GO NASA !!!!

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A theological mind-set example:
>
> The Space Shuttle program is 98.4% successful. A
> lot of the Nation looks upon this statistic as a
> "total failure". (We lost 2 orbiters in the last
> 30 years of the Shuttle program; hence, the 1.6%
> failure). And what do we..........as human
> beings..............'focus' upon? THE NEGATIVE!
> Mind you........very few folks focus on the 98.4%
> success
> rate.......................and....................
> even more importantly...............ALL of the
> attributes of major historical significance in the
> betterment of mankind through technological
> advancement. We..........as humans..........LOVE
> "negative". It is always demanded upon NASA to be
> 100% perfect............100% of the time. I
> agree...........one tiny error can be very costly.
> But......it must also be stated that Space is VERY
> dangerous.....and rockets are EXTREMELY
> complex....and also dangerous. I DO 'fault' NASA
> for failed PR.......IRT advertising and educating
> the public as to all of the spin-off's.
> But............then again............a budget was
> never set forth for PR. THAT HURTS!
>
> In all of my schooling, financial investments,
> lifes decisions.........if only I could have
> ascertained a 98.4% success rate/grade! I would
> not look upon this as a "total failure".

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom, as I remember, 1 Apollo mission, the Astronauts burned on launchpad and Nasa realized
what needed correcting.
Then another one they didn't land on the moon but got back safe.
That first shuttle disaster was negligence, Nasa could have prevented this one.
Second one was tile knocked off during takeoff? Not sure what could be done about that.
Your points are well taken however as rockets are very close to being a bomb
and space is very dangerous.
One would think however if any organisation needed very careful QC and redundancy
checks, it would be Nasa.
Anytime Nasa makes any mistake or even if it was not really their fault, peoples'
memory of any failure will be perpetual.
Personally, I think Nasa should do everything possible not to make any mistakes.
People naturally have high expectations when it comes to the space agency
and rightfully so.
I don't think it is a good idea to stereotype anyone if they happen to believe that Nasa isn't up to par,
for there may be even some agnostics or atheists somewhere who believe that Nasa should be shut down.
On the other hand, there may be some strong christian, Fox watching Nasa supporters out there.
Oh, and about news agencies, I am sorry but all of them suck bigtime as they all have their own agendas
and try to influence people in what to believe.
Whatever happened to reporting the facts without commentary?

We TRIPLE-check EVERYTHING at NASA......and STILL find that we are not perfect.

Going into space with ANY vehicle is DANGEROUS! In 1492 .......... Columbus ALSO did a very DANGEROUS thing! Open-heart surgery is also very DANGEROUS. Electricity is dangerous. Medicine prototyping is also dangerous. ((( To list only a VERY few ))).

THINK OF THE CONSEQUENCES IF WE DON'T!!!!!!!!!

I have to disagree with you. There comes a point where failure & fault have to be recognized and assigned. 640 million dollars at the bottom of the ocean with the same failure mechanism twice in a row, within a 2 year time span, by the same company. And NASA gives Orbital Sciences the contract for the Carbon Observatory 2 launch in 2013. Wow......that is just plain 'stupid' in my book and has no bearing on advancing knowledge. More like squandering taxpayers money with full fore knowledge of high probability of failure. What ever happened to competition from other companies. Or does Orbital Sciences have shady 'no competition' supplier contracts with the gov't like Halliburton.

And my focus is not unduly negative. Actually, its realistic and fact based. With the exception of my 'speculation' on the type of contracts Orbital Sciences has.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 02:48AM by TerraDigger.

For sure Nasa does need to get the public involved.
If for nothing else to educate about the perils of space travel.
The first shuttle accident was made much worse by the President's
decision to put civilians in it, that was a bad mistake.
If Nasa could relate to the public the risks involved and chances
of success, then it might soften the public's judgment if a failure occurs.
However knowledge is a double-edged sword in that the more the public
knows, the more it may decide against certain space ventures.
A good motivation for public support is educate them on how Satellites
affect their everyday life, like their cellphones, other media exchanges, etc.
Right now however I do not see Nasa taking a big hit on recent events for the
simple reason the public will have other fish to fry like the pending oil and
gas hikes---this is where the real attention will be, if Bubba has a hard
time buying gas for his SUV, 4 Wheeler, bass boats, etc.
The big problem for this Country has always been that we the people will
not stick together and agree on hardly anything.
This oil problem may become a crisis, one that could have averted long
ago if we would have demanded our gov get involved and open this country
to oil drilling on public lands, etc.
We used to have a can do attitude now we have a politically correct attitude.

Steve (MS)........here's a tidbit for you.........the U.S. gets approx 2.5% of its oil needs from Libyan sources.......now factor in the percentage of gas price increases since the Libyan crisis.......I'll let the readers do the math.....its more effective that way.
Now factor in that the Saudi's have publicly stated that they will pump extra oil to maintain current supply due to any oil shortages from the Libya situation, with no price increases for the additional pumped oil.
Next, factor in that our President is considering opening up our national fuel reserves to keep prices a few cents lower instead of calling the oil companies upon the carpet to explain the gas price increases when there is no shortage of oil.
Then factor in that if the reserves are used up, the replenishment fuel will 'probably' be repurchased at a higher rate than what it was originally purchased for. Now....lets see.......who makes another profit on this type of decision? Want to guess?
Can you say.....malfeasance & corruption? In both the public and private sectors. And glaringly obvious to boot
My opinion................to harsh to print on this forum. But America better wake up real soon.........time is not running out......time has run out........

No argument from me on that one.
Most of these higher price rates started back right after
Katrina passed through.
Strangely or should I say shamefully Exxon Mobil had record profits the next year.
A couple of times Congress declared they would look into this.
Nothing ever happened on that front.
The oil companies claimed they weren't gouging.
Everytime there is a claim of oil shortage oil and gas prices surge.
They can claim supply and demand.
Still regardless of whether there is a real shortage or not, the same
results happen, price increases.
I am sure this is good for oil company shareholders but what about
the greater good?
Those with deep pockets don't care now but the day may come soon
when they will feel the effect also,
Even on News outlets, they forecasted higher prices this summer.
So who is running this Country and whatever happened to "We the People"?
Higher gas/oil prices equal higher prices on everything.
Those that believe in global warming and limited oil supply better be willing
to pay a lot more on everything they buy.
How in the world so called scientists convinced so many this nonsense...
even our politicians, news media...heck they are teaching the young children.
So yes, your statement has real meaning:
"But America better wake up real soon.........time is not running out......time has run out........"

Terra,

In my opinion, oil prices in this day and age have nothing to do with supply and demand.

Imagine if our dollar was not hooked into the price of oil....what do you think the cost of gas would be then ? I know we use more gas/oil than any country, but there is a bigger reason why we pay a lot less in gas than others.

If China gets it's way, and flips the world currency to the yuan, look out.