Forest Land and the Feds

Here is what the Feds say about hunting on federal forest land or public lands....wow

While out enjoying your public lands, remember to leave natural or cultural artifacts in place. It is illegal to excavate, damage, remove, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on federal or tribal lands.

It is also illegal to sell, purchase, or exchange any archaeological resource if the resource was excavated or removed from federal or tribal lands.
Archaeological resources include both historic and prehistoric sites. Historic artifacts include nails, coins, glassware, and other items used during settlement, mining or any other historic phase. Prehistoric items include rock art, pottery and other objects from prehistory.

If convicted, first time offenders can be fined up to $20,000 and imprisoned for up to one year.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Just tell them you are an illegal growing MaryWanna and No Problem.

doc holiday Wrote:
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> Just tell them you are an illegal growing MaryWann
> a and No Problem.


LoL

Here in SW MO. some guys were canoeing on a river thru the civil war park in this area. They saw a human bone sticking out the river bank, took it to the park headquarters , and promptly got arrested. When the dust settled in the case a year or two later, they got off with a $5000 fine. They thought they were doing a good deed, poor guys.

Heres the kicker It don't have to be marked or posted and they will take your car and detector and take you away in handcuffs....

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> While out enjoying your public lands, remember to
> leave natural or cultural artifacts in place. It i
> s illegal to excavate, damage, remove, or otherwis
> e alter or deface any archaeological resource loca
> ted on federal or tribal lands.
>
> It is also illegal to sell, purchase, or exchange
> any archaeological resource if the resource was ex
> cavated or removed from federal or tribal lands.
> Archaeological resources include both historic and
> prehistoric sites. Historic artifacts include nail
> s, coins, glassware, and other items used during s
> ettlement, mining or any other historic phase. Pre
> historic items include rock art, pottery and other
> objects from prehistory.
>
> If convicted, first time offenders can be fined up
> to $20,000 and imprisoned for up to one year.

Where are you getting that quote from Lawrenzo ? It sounds like archie commentary, not chapter & verse law. But admittedly it's resting on ARPA. So everything there could be substantiated via ARPA.

HOWEVER, notice it all only deals with old stuff . And "artifact" is always going to be defined as 50 yrs. old or older. So as long as you're only finding new stuff, it won't apply. In fact, there's EXPRESS ALLOWANCES for md'ing on a few forms of federal land. BLM and NFS , for example (if you need the links, let me know). Because you could be nugget hunting, meteorite hunting, new-coin/jewelry hunting, etc....

And let's be utterly frank here: When was the last time you ever heard of someone jumping out of the bushes, armed with a calculator, poised to do the math on the ages of coins you and I find ? Sure, don't tromp around obvious historic sensitive monuments. But .... if you're out in the middle of the forest or desert somewhere, it's possible to over-worry things.

Dan-Pa. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heres the kicker It don't have to be marked or pos
> ted and they will take your car and detector and t
> ake you away in handcuffs....


Do you know any cases of someone having their car & detector taken away, handcuffed, etc... for detecting federal land ? If you can cite such an incident, it will no doubt be for someone night-sneaking an obvious historic sensitive site. Or ignoring a warning, or somehow being obnoxious.

But if someone can cite such an incident for a truly innocuous incident, then that would be a fluke, IMHO. I mean, ... so too can I probably cite an incident of someone getting roughed up, ticketed, jailed, confiscated, by an over-zealous cop, for nothing but a tail-light out.

Out here in the west, we have stretches of federal forests & deserts where it's entirely possible to be 20 miles from the nearest human being. To go all day and never see a soul. Yup, no archies hiding behind rocks. Armed with calculators, waiting to jump out and sift through the contents of your pouch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 11:58AM by Tom_in_CA.

Tom, as I have posted before, TVA (which is federal) routinely cites people for not only detecting but even for picking up arrowheads on drawn-down lakes. And they seize detectors. The more mundane cases, of course, don't make headline news so you wont find them online. I have talked with officers (both TVA and locals I count as friends) who don't know that I detect and have been told the same thing. And we have previously discussed one headline event in particular where some morons/thieves that metal detect have been sentenced for detecting, recovering, and selling civil war artifacts.

Now, all that said, I rem reading a post on one of the major board within the last couple of years from an individual who lives 'out west' somewhere who did some investigation of the USFS regs himself and found that the USFS indeed DOES explicitly allow metal detecting on non historical/archeological sites. He even took his findings to some hi up USFS manager and got his approval to metal detect as well. Sorry, I don't know the link, but following his links, I did read the regs myself and the detectorist was right. This isn't to say to anyone 'go do it' but DO do due diligence (always wanted to type that) and have the facts to present when challenged.

(( PS, I call the archeologists what they really are: Grave Robbers ))

That's One reason I got a Nice little Lite Weight Tesoro that can break down easy and fit in a Back Pac.
So if a Barney Fife is parked near Me for hours as they do, And I come outta the Woods I am just another Back packer enjoying a Hike. Got a lot of Wooded sites to Hit this Fall if the Good Lords willing and the Creeks don't rise.

Take your detector to Lake Mead, Nevada and see what they tell you. I just stop to ask if detecting was permitted, and got told if they even see your detector, it will be taken and your car, and a what ever they want to do with you.

Tom lets put it this way don't rattle the gorillas cage.....while working have had some official dealings with country mounties and they are tough cookies so be my guest.

Let Me say My above Comment was County Land not Federal. But it's a Damn same We can't detect land that 'We' Pay Taxes on.
I can see 10 or More Guys digging it up with Shovels. But a Guy or 2 Out there digging small holes with a Hand Trowel? I mean it is nature how much damage can You do without it repairing itself? What a Joke.
We even tried to set up a Permit system. And not 25.00 a Year , But as High as a 100.00 as the Preserves are some of us Bread and Butter and they turned us down.
And Cook County is Hemoriging Money, But they had some to Put up No Detecting signs?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 03:32PM by Harold,ILL..

I got this info from a Fed and they can do what ever they want. If you want to take a chance then you have to pay the pied piper you can't fight the feds they can take up to five years to come for you after and serve papers...It happened to a friend of mine and he had to pay with lawyer fees and court fees 15 grand and got a misdemeanor and more..You can't talk your way out of it...

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Harold,ILL. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let Me say My above Comment was County Land not Fe
> deral. But it's a Damn same We can't detect land t
> hat 'We' Pay Taxes on.
> I can see 10 or More Guys digging it up with Shove
> ls. But a Guy or 2 Out there digging small holes w
> ith a Hand Trowel? I mean it is nature how much da
> mage can You do without it repairing itself? What
> a Joke.
> We even tried to set up a Permit system. And not 2
> 5.00 a Year , But as High as a 100.00 as the Prese
> rves are some of us Bread and Butter and they turn
> ed us down.
> And Cook County is Hemoriging Money, But they had
> some to Put up No Detecting signs?


Harold------Remind me to never move to IL.----You need to get out of there & move somewhere that's more m.d.ing friendly.

D&P-OR ,Yeah it Sucks for us who have the True Passion and Not just a Passing Fad. It was great For Years then Bam. We are running out of places that are Metal Detecting Friendly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 05:10PM by Harold,ILL..

We detect nuggets and meteorites on public land a lot out here in AZ, CA, NV. No problems. FS doesn't have an issue with it. As was mentioned earlier though, anything over 50 years old on public land is considered an "antiquity" and if you are caught with it is a violation of the Antiquity's Act. Big trouble. When out nugget shooting you do not take the trash items like nails, etc. out in your pouch with you. You leave them on a rock. Not worth the hassle to be caught by an over zealous Tree Nazi in possession of a couple of square nails. If asked, " I'm looking for gold or space rocks".

Out in the vast expanses of the West, as Tom mentioned, we don't see another person for days most trips. I can usually see my truck for a quarter of a mile or better while walking back to it. It gives one time to think about what is (and isn't gonna be if necessary) in his pouch before getting back to the truck which is the usual spot for a meeting with the FS. Of course, I only relic hunt on private property (like all of you) so I don't have to worry about it. Looking for nuggets and space rocks is a different "story".

Dean

Champ Ferguson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, as I have posted before, TVA (which is federa
> l) routinely cites people for not only detecting b
> ut even for picking up arrowheads

Yes. We have had this discussion before. And I don't doubt there was places where someone's actually enforcing something. No doubt because well-meaning md'rs in the TVA went in asking silly questions 20 yrs. ago, so "BOL's" were perhaps issued for this supposed evil ? But in any case, sure: There are places that will allude to ARPA and actually watch and enforce.

But to go from isolated zones like that, to spread the word to never detect any federal land, is also an un-founded fear. For example Bado1 (Dean) , as you see from his post, hunts federal land w/o issue. As do many others of us. So it could be a regional thing. And the best advice that can be given to those in the zones where no one cares, is to KEEP IT A NON-ISSUE, by not drawing any attention to ourselves.

Good luck to anyone that is hunting on public land because if you get caught you can't talk your way out of it. If you sell relics even ones that are not from federal land and you get caught on federal land they will throw that into the court hearings you will have and the cost of the lawyer and the hopes you can get a plea deal. I wonder now about BLM land???? But not worth trying.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

Both Forest Service and BLM administer vast amounts of land that are open to mineral entry i.e. you can locate and file a mining claim. On federal land that is open to mineral entry metal detecting for minerals is specifically a protected activity under both BLM and Forest Service CFRs:

BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT -

43 C.F.R. Subpart 3809—Surface Management
Title 43 - Public Lands: Interior

3809.5

(1) Casual use generally includes the collection of geochemical, rock, soil, or mineral specimens using hand tools; hand panning; or non-motorized sluicing. It may include use of small portable suction dredges. It also generally includes use of metal detectors, gold spears and other battery-operated devices for sensing the presence of minerals, and hand and battery-operated drywashers. Operators may use motorized vehicles for casual use activities provided the use is consistent with the regulations governing such use (part 8340 of this title), off-road vehicle use designations contained in BLM land-use plans, and the terms of temporary closures ordered by BLM.

(2) Casual use does not include use of mechanized earth-moving equipment, truck-mounted drilling equipment, motorized vehicles in areas when designated as closed to “off-road vehicles” as defined in §8340.0–5 of this title, chemicals, or explosives. It also does not include “occupancy” as defined in §3715.0–5 of this title or operations in areas where the cumulative effects of the activities result in more than negligible disturbance.


For Forest Service:

36 CFR 228.4 - PLAN OF OPERATIONS - NOTICE OF INTENT - REQUIREMENTS.

Sec. 228.4 Plan of operations - notice of intent - requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a notice of intent to operate is required from any person proposing to conduct operations which might cause significant disturbance of surface resources. Such notice of intent to operate shall be submitted to the District Ranger having jurisdiction over the area in which the operations will be conducted. Each notice of intent to operate shall provide information sufficient to identify the area involved, the nature of the proposed operations, the route of access to the area of operations, and the method of transport.

(1) A notice of intent to operate is not required for:

(i) Operations which will be limited to the use of vehicles on existing public roads or roads used and maintained for National Forest System purposes;

(ii) Prospecting and sampling which will not cause significant surface resource disturbance and will not involve removal of more than a reasonable amount of mineral deposit for analysis and study which generally might include searching for and occasionally removing small mineral samples or specimens, gold panning, metal detecting, non-motorized hand sluicing, using battery operated dry washers, and collecting of mineral specimens using hand tools;

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
. I wonder now about B
> LM land???? But not worth trying.

BLM has express ALLOWANCE (beats the heck out of merely being silent on the subject). And ... sure ... it's in-so-far as long as it's not objects over 50 yrs. old (how good is your math?)

And in-so far as selling relics: As you can see from Ebay: relics (buttons, coins, buckles, tokens, etc...) are bought and sold ALL THE TIME. And since when does anyone need to post "found on BLM land"? or "found on NFS land" ?

I think you are sounding alarms for things that that are not the sky-falling as much as you think it is.

Steve Herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both Forest Service and BLM administer vast amount
> s of land that are open to mineral entry

Yes. BLM and NFS have express allowances for md'ing. Yet for some reason the fear is perpetually put out there that "all federal land is off-limits". And sure, ARPA would kick in, if you asked enough bored purist archies. But in my 40-ish years of this, I have NEVER had someone come up , reach in my apron, and start doing the math on the age of each coin I've found. Have you ?

Sure, avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments. Sure, don't go waltzing over beach blankets at an archie convention. But ... it's possible to over-worry things.

+1 Tom,

Clubs out west hunt regularly on federal land without hassles - the so-called "Patton Camps" are a typical example - thousands of man-hours of detecting over the years and never a problem.

Over-worry. Don't drive to a site, you could get a ticket for speeding.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

Tom_in_CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Champ Ferguson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tom, as I have posted before, TVA (which is fede
> ra
> > l) routinely cites people for not only detecting
> b
> > ut even for picking up arrowheads
>
> Yes. We have had this discussion before. And I d
> on't doubt there was places where someone's actual
> ly enforcing something. No doubt because well-mea
> ning md'rs in the TVA went in asking silly questio
> ns 20 yrs. ago, so "BOL's" were perhaps issued for
> this supposed evil ? But in any case, sure: The
> re are places that will allude to ARPA and actuall
> y watch and enforce.
>
> But to go from isolated zones like that, to spread
> the word to never detect any federal land, is also
> an un-founded fear. For example Bado1 (Dean) , as
> you see from his post, hunts federal land w/o issu
> e. As do many others of us. So it could be a re
> gional thing. And the best advice that can be giv
> en to those in the zones where no one cares, is to
> KEEP IT A NON-ISSUE, by not drawing any attention
> to ourselves.


No Tom, as I have said before, TVA thinks they own the world and it has nothing to do with anything anyone ever did. They are Just That Arrogant. It isn't just detectorists that they go ape @#$%& over. Anyone they see bend over, pick up something, and put it in their pocket will cause them to stop you if they are having their time of the month (which is most of the month). I would think that someone from CA would appreciate and readily believe in the innate nature of a tyrannical goobermint agency.
Remember these guys begin by seizing whatever land they please to make whatever project they want to pursue profitable; and they say as much in court when challenged. Common for them to seize land hundreds of yards from a proposed reservoir at their price so they can sell it later a large markup.

note that I didn't disagree with you about the west. in fact, just the opposite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 11:37PM by Champ Ferguson.

champ, yes there are some zones that "care" (and others where you would search in vain for someone who "cares"). And yes: perhaps they just hate it when someone (gasp) takes or collects something. And yes, perhaps it had nothing to do with some md'r, 20+ yrs. ago, making himself a lightening rod via grovelling.

Interesting, 'cause I do about 90% of my detecting on "federal land" (which we all supposedly own). I live in an area surrounded by national forest and was told detecting is OK here as long as I stay clear of rivers, lakes and streams (for protection of some endangered critters), and that if I find any NATIVE AMERICAN artifacts, I need to leave them alone. I was given this information by the desk ranger at my local ranger station. Since then, another ranger suggested that I try detecting around the location of the old ranger residence (building is long gone) and I gladly did. I found some interesting goodies there, which I happily showed to him before taking them home. That old ranger residence was directly across the street from the ranger station and plenty of rangers and forest service firemen saw me there detecting for hours. Not one problem or question from anyone. Never had any problem detecting here on this federal land, and I've run into several rangers. Only once was I asked: "having any luck?"...

Of course, I'm just walking around with my Tesoro, a finds pouch and my little Lesche hand digger. If I brought the backhoe in, I'm sure things could change quickly..

BTW - It's my understanding that it's only NATIONAL PARKS that are completely off limits to metal detecting.

Happy hunting on your public land, folks. Recreating is exactly what it's here for. Just use common sense, take your dug trash and fill your holes...

Dirty ol' Digger

Lawrenzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...It happened to a friend o
> f mine and he had to pay with lawyer fees and cour
> t fees 15 grand and got a misdemeanor and more..Yo
> u can't talk your way out of it...

You're "friend" shouldn't have made YouTube video showing the Park Service sign that stated "he" was on a historic site, breaking the law. Your "friend" deleting all of "his" YouTube videos, after "he" was arrested, was a foolish attempt to hide evidence. Foolishly flaunting the law and attracting attention is what got your "friend" reported to the authorities and that created a situation that law enforcement couldn't ignore. Your "fiend" needs to learn how to tell the truth and face up to the stupidity of "his" actions. Quit spreading fear and questioning the actions of others.

No one was arrested. But mistakes were made....and as I said before one agent can say one thing and the other can fine or bust you, or both. The videos were taken down as a request from the feds so others would not make the same mistake...And I was the friend that made the mistake and was summoned to court after 4 and a half years of silence. It was my last hunt before my bone marrow transplant and I had no idea detecting was not permitted. No signs, I saw rangers and waved to them and they waved back. But one ranger was not happy with my detecting and didn't care what the other rangers said. In fact I had a customer that owns land up there and he had no fences and I was right of Hwy 88 and I didn't really know I was on Federal land. They don't care, if you take one rusted nail it is like finding a 100 and they don't carbon test the finds they just look at the rust and say it is 50-100 years old. If you want to fight the system and lose and you will lose the fine can be a max up to 20 grand. I had to pay three grand. It was a sad day and changed the way I view the law. Only time I did that in my life and it was a mistake that will forever stay with me as it should.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!

pinenut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
..... I was given this information by the desk ra
> nger at my local ranger station. .....

Isn't this just so classic. Eh ? Shows that the whole thing is rather arbitrary and whimsical. Great story. You could have asked another day, to another ranger , and gotten a completely different answer. Which is why I do not subject myself to anyone's princely yes or no.

Crosby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lawrenzo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...It happened to a friend o
> > f mine and he had to pay with lawyer fees and co
> ur
> > t fees 15 grand and got a misdemeanor and more..
> Yo
> > u can't talk your way out of it...
>
> You're "friend" shouldn't have made YouTube video
> showing the Park Service sign that stated "he" was
> on a historic site ....

+ 1

99% of where you can hunt is simply to not make oneself a lighting rod.

That is the whole reason this happened I didn't know. But I would not hide or go undercover the bust would even be worse.

LowBoy

TAKE A LITTLE TIME KICKBACK AND WATCH SOME OF MY DETECTING VIDEO'S BELOW ON YouTube

[www.youtube.com]

If you don’t dig it, then how are you going to know what you’re missing!
How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat!