FTP YOU'RE UP NEXT

Come on First Texas, throw out a bone or something.
If nothing else an ETA would be nice.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

It's time for FTP to $**t, or get off the pot! Being "fashionably late" has it's limits, as to beneficial returns.

All the other players have shown their hands. It's time to lay em down, or fold. The expected release of your new stuff was 2016. People won't wait forever, now that the competition has put their stuff out there! You'r gonna lose sales if you don't get it/them out there for potential buyers to see.

What's sad is I'm still sitting here waiting on the Tesoro Cazadore. LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2017 03:19PM by 88junior.

The game changer for FTP i feel may well be bringing this new Pulse too the market that has some very good discrimination,the project that they bought from the french guy,this it was called the 'Manta' or something like that,that could well be the game changer that we have all been waiting for the last decade or so.Dont think we will have all that long before it arrives possibly 2 years or so,but it was in a very advanced state before FTP took it over.

Of course no one can predict exactly what a machine will be like until we actually see it in the flesh,certainly the bar has been raised in the last 2 years or so.

DO give them time!

J&D............correct.

A detector model war is happening folks.
After today some manufacturers may be doing some recalculations.

Would love to sit in on a few boardroom meetings in the next few weeks.
Would be interesting.

First Texas I'm sure is working on some thing.
Some times first in means a lot.

Like At Pro was as far as the Vlf waterproof, pretty economical.

You can bet other manufacturers will keep their ears perked on the reporting of this new Minelab line.

Junk and Disorderly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The game changer for FTP i feel may well be bringi
> ng this new Pulse too the market that has some ver
> y good discrimination,the project that they bought
> from the french guy,this it was called the 'Manta'
> or something like that,that could well be the game
> changer that we have all been waiting for the last
> decade or so.Dont think we will have all that long
> before it arrives possibly 2 years or so,but it wa
> s in a very advanced state before FTP took it over
> .
>
> Of course no one can predict exactly what a machin
> e will be like until we actually see it in the fle
> sh,certainly the bar has been raised in the last 2

I agree JD.

Most offerings in the VLF realm lately, have been existing technology set in a nice package of desirable features. The Impact for instance, IMO.

Pulse Induction, has plenty of room for serious developement to make it far outpace the VLF machines. If FTP (or any manufacturer) can accurately measure those extremely tiny differences in signal decay rate between different metals accurately, and provide accurate discrimination/ID'ing, that will be the major development to pave the way for Pulse Induction as the new go to technology for all venues of detecting, IMO. That's the future of detecting, I believe.


> years or so.

Its interesting to see how these multi use detectors are cutting down most hunters inventory of detectors.

NASA-Tom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DO give them time!
>
> J&D............correct.


Absolutely, Tom. Patience, before purchase, is a good rule of thumb.

Lots of folks get excited about newly released machines, and commit to one, before seeing all. Many regret the impulsive buying later.

FTP is missing out on those sales to impulse buyers, who buy the first latest/greatest to arrive.

All I've wanted from Fisher is a digital CZ that has a continuous depth meter, with no need for pinpointing to get a depth reading. You wouldn't think that would be difficult for them to bring to market.

what's left to do?

Good under $1000 water proof salt beach detector

Defeat iron masking

Discrimination beyond 10".

The new Equinox might do number 1 above. Number two no way, number 3 - maybe, but then no more CTX sales.

A waterproof iron discriminating PI could do all three. Maybe Fisher will make one someday.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

>"What's sad is I'm still sitting here waiting on the Tesoro Cazadore. LOL">
-------------------------------------------------------
>" Its interesting to see how these multi use detecto
> rs are cutting down most hunters inventory of de
> tectors."


Waiting for the Caz is fruitless, Tesoro has blinders on and earplugs shoved into their ears. Gave up hope myself. No longer own a Tesoro, found pastures greener elsewhere.

I am happy to say with several multi-use detectors I currently own, my arsenal of detectors have been cut drastically to about 3. Now willing to sell my Teknetics Mark 1.

DeepTech Vista X with 3 search coils.
Works for me

I suspect the announcement of the new ML machine today will hurt sales on the AT MAX as folks refocus their attention on the Equinox. I know if I was considering an AT MAX that it would've just been dumped in favor of the new ML

Yeah, but when is it actually coming to market?---That's the $64,000 question.-----The one shown was the proto type (of course) and was mentioned there was adjustments yet to be done on it.------Anyway, I'm happy with what I got--till they show me something I can't live without.

D&P-OR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, but when is it actually coming to market?---
> That's the $64,000 question.-----The one shown was
> the proto type (of course) and was mentioned there
> was adjustments yet to be done on it.------Anyway,
> I'm happy with what I got--till they show me somet
> hing I can't live without.


I think I read it'll be out in February. So far I like what I see, looks like a fun detector with all the right features for what I need. The ML rep in one of the videos mentioned it has a USB port, and the wireless charging. Brandon Niece's endorsement that it made his CTX his backup machine, speaks volumes to me, I think he's on the level.

EMField Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NASA-Tom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DO give them time!
> >
> > J&D............correct.
>
>
> Absolutely, Tom. Patience, before purchase, is
> a good rule of thumb.
>
> Lots of folks get excited about newly released mac
> hines, and commit to one, before seeing all. Many
> regret the impulsive buying later.
>
> FTP is missing out on those sales to impulse buyer
> s, who buy the first latest/greatest to arrive.

I hope I'm still alive by the time it comes out, lol

Cal_cobra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brandon Niece's endors
> ement that it made his CTX his backup machine, spe
> aks volumes to me, I think he's on the level.

His endorsement doesn't do much for me. I can see the Equinox being a more appropriate machine than the CTX for hunting in iron infested ghost town sites, but I already have the Racer2 for that. For me the CTX is just plain fun to hunt with and I really like the target trace.

To me its does not seems to replace fbs/fbs2 for turf coin hunting. It does seem to be an xterra 705 with adjustible recovery, tone break, and frequency(which is fantastic!). All packaged in waterproof and light build. So more of their entry in the all terrain market with a bonus multi freq option to do better than competion in salt. So the Garrett AT and MX Sport market.

I believe Minelab is absolutely willing to "cannibalize" their sales of the CTX and other previous offerings with the intro of this platform. I think they did this eyes wide open. Consider what we have complained about for years with ML...weight and price. They just fixed both issues. I would bet that they will now go forward using this platform to launch other "previous offerings" in a new lighter/ cheaper package...E-Trac-2, CTX-4040, Xterra 800, etc. and they will sell the heck out of them. ML already OWNS the prospecting and PI market...there is no better serious prospecting machine than ML period. They needed to re-invent themselves for the hobby market and I think they just did. Sometimes you have to cut some stuff loose to move forward.

Rick, you are the pro in the marketing field...am I way off?


Dean

It doesn't matter much how much of an impact the equinox series line have on Etrac and CTX.

Two pronged challenge here, if only 800 model,would have been built, no as big of deal,, but add 600 model- really opens up possibilities for folks due to cost.

Etrac if you look at previous fbs models, is due to be discontinued.

All about increasing market share.

PI world dominated by Minelab already.

Waterproof thingy for vlf, Garrett sat on their perch way too long IMO.
No one challenged really.
Looks like their reign could finally be over.

I do talk to folks in Europe.
Deus is very popular.
So Deus will have a lighter weight challenger.

There are other models too in the USA that will be challenged.

I will bet overall detector sales in USA during next approx 12 weeks -slump big time for Vlf detectors.
Folks needing a detector to use more likely to buy used while they wait, or use what they have currently.

So Minelab's goal reached, freeze the purchasing public, let their new models get talked about , while they put finishing touches on units for sales.

Safe to say, Minelab has been reading forums!!!
Equinox is the evidence.

Who would have thought of 2 different waterproof Vlf model offerings from the same manufacturer at the same time??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2017 03:58PM by Sod-buster.

things CAN happen that you never thought of before??

From ANYBODY

Keith

“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
-Nikola Tesla

Bado,

Me - a marketing pro?? Not hardly, but I was a buyer and subcontracts manager for 35 years or so. I also have thought a whole lot about metal detector pricing since I paid many hundreds of dollars for a whites 4900 many years ago - a box which it was clear - ought to cost about a third of the price.

The price difference - a "tax on treasure". As the public precption of the reward to work ratio of treasure hunting declines, so must detector prices. The days of multi-thousand-dollar detectors (except for gold nuggets) - is long gone. In a world of many dozens of hobby detectors to chose from, price, shelf space, online presence in social media, etc. are king.

Up to now, Microsoft has lagged sadly in most of this trend - overpriced, underdistributed, bad service (in the US) and overweight, complicated units have held them back. Their attempt at a mass-market series - the GoFind was a huge and costly failure. Now they seem to have woken up - offering a competitively priced, seemingly attractive machine. Of course, they will not have a marketable product for months yet, but they have never shied away fron bold pre-announcements in hopes of freezing would be buyers in place and inhibiting competitors sales.

Come next spring or summer, they will no doubt have fielded quantities of this new machine and we can all see where it fits in.

Meanwhile (IMHO) the key unsolved problems in general detecting remain:

Iron ID at full depth (coin shooting is dead - only Iron ID is interesting to relic hunters) - all that supposed "deep silver" os mostly just masked.

Seeing through small - and "around" large - ferrous targets to signal non-ferrous ones

Doing all this in a light weight package with a great user interface

Doing all this in salt and black sand in a waterproff package

While the Equinox may prove a great beach detector, I see nothing to indicate that it addresses the other issues - we will - of course - see as it gets to the field.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold

lytle78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bado,
>
> Their attempt at a mass-mark
> et series - the GoFind was a huge and costly failu
> re.

I see this sort of comment a lot. Just curious Rick - what is your evidence to support it?

Steve, as always, you look for folks' opinions to be fact-based. My GO-FIND statement deserved a challenge, since it was unsupported. Now you've gone and made me work to support my comment as best I can - thanks.

My comments about it being an expensive failure were my own conclusion - based on my belief that it has failed in the announced goal of becoming a mass-market sales leader. About It being costly - developing a completely new electronic and mechanical platform costs many millions of dollars and a business plan to make that worthwhile as an investment has to count on substantial sales at the planned price level (more on that below).

It was specifically intended to be sold (according to ML's announcement to shareholders prior to release) as a mass-market entry - selling in huge volume through mass outlets like Amazon, Cabelas, Walmart, Big 5, etc. Enthusiasts like is, purchasing from old-line dealers,were not the target. Here is a Quote from their FY 2015 Annual report stating the marketing objective -

"The GO-FIND® will become a higher volume consumer product, and Minelab has expanded its relationships with large retail chains in order to take this product to the large consumer markets of the USA, Europe, Russia and Australia."

[hotcopper.com.au]

And this from an April 2015 announcement.

"Developed using state-of-the-art Minelab technology and designed for simple and intuitive use, the GO-FIND series is a collection of three new metal detector models offering the world’s highest quality detectors priced from $199 to $399. The collapsible and lightweight detectors will be available for purchase from a broad range of retailers by May 18, 2015. Over 25,000 detectors have been ordered by dealers in Australia, North America and Europe."

[codan.com.au]

No sales figures are disclosed by Minelab, but I just checked Amazon and the Go-Find 60 is #184 in sales rank among all metal detectors - The comparably priced Bounty Hunter Land Ranger Pro is #17. This is the only hard datapoint I have, but I think it's a reasonably good one.

The GO-FIND 60 currently lists For $216.77 at Walmart - this is about 54% of its original price of $399 - so much for the business plan.

[www.walmart.com]

Last year's FY 16 report (August 2016) trumpeted its sales success, but that may have been "sell into" (sales to distributors and dealers) rather than "sell through" (sales to customers).

Here's a quote from Codan's FY16 Annual Report released August 2016 (ML's parent company).

"Sales of the ...GO-FIND detector strengthened during FY16 as Minelab signed a number of distribution agreements in the US and Europe which greatly improved market penetration. The GO-FIND now represents a significant incremental revenue stream for Minelab." This was doubtless the 25,000 on order talked about in the 2015 release. No data on how many were returned or cancelled.

This sounds like sell into, not sell through.

[hotcopper.com.au]

The Amazon numbers ranking metal detectors are, of course based on customer sales - sell through - not sales to distributors.

The FY17 report mentions GO-FIND only as a goal for 2018 "Take GO-FIND® detector series to the next level"

[hotcopper.com.au]

That sounds to me like "We hope to sell somemore someplace".

All in all, my data is not conclusive. If my statement was wrong, someone is welcome to correct me. As it is, it is only my opinion - based on limited data - and opinions are like..... - oh well, nevermind!

In any case, companies learn, and the elegance and lightness of the new machine clearly show this in ML's case.

EDIT NOTE. Based on a wise comment by Steve H., I have removed a para which previously stood here regarding whether the departure of Gary Schafer from Minelab was connected to the GO-FIND program. I have no specific knowledge of the circumstances involved and although I did not state that there was a connection, the text I wrote invited speculation about a connection between the project and his departure.

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2017 05:39PM by lytle78.

Wow. Nice leg-work/home-work Rick! Interesting stuff.

I guess it just depends on what you want to read into things. For instance I could read the massive price reductions on First Texas models as signs of abject failure of those models. But we both know that would not be accurate. You have no idea why Gary Shafer left Minelab, but you chose to believe what you want about it. "Sounds like" is just "I don't know but here is what I want to believe".

From the latest August 31 report [codan.com.au]

Codan Delivers Strong Growth - Announces Special Dividend

Highlights

Underlying net profit after tax of $44.7 million, up 112% on 33% higher sales
Statutory net profit after tax of $43.5 million, up 181%
Increased annual dividend to 7.0 cents, up 17%, fully franked (interim 3.0, final 4.0)
Annual special dividend of 6.0 cents, fully franked (interim 3.0, final 3.0)
Underlying earnings per share of 24.9 cents, up 109%
Strong balance sheet – $21.4 million net cash
Radio Communications produced its best result in eight years; sales increased 9% and
profit increased 14%
Metal Detection produced its second-highest result ever; sales increased 49% and
profit increased 106% due to strong gold detector sales into Africa and other markets
outside Australia
Minetec delivered a small contribution to profit as miners recognised the value of our
underground tracking solutions

In recognition of the outperformance of the company this year, the Directors have also
announced a special dividend of 3.0 cents per share for the second half, fully franked,
bringing the full-year special dividend to 6.0 cents.

“In the 2017 financial year, we delivered a near record profit, demonstrating Codan’s ability to
deliver world-class, robust technology for our customers in more than 150 countries,” Chief
Executive Officer, Donald McGurk, said today.

“We spent more than ever on new product development this year, and this will increase again
in FY18 as we continue to invest in order to diversify and grow our sustainable revenue base.

In FY17, Minelab revenue increased 49% to $148 million, and segment profit increased 106%
to $61.5 million. While all parts of the Minelab business performed well, the growth was
dominated by gold detector sales.

Minelab’s established recreational markets outside Africa have also performed well, with sales
into developed markets increasing across Australia, North America and Europe/Russia by
more than 20% collectively. We are on target to launch a significant new product for the
mainstream coin and treasure market in FY18.


Steve here again - The Go-Find series is Minelabs number one seller by unit sales. Now, it could be those sales are at a loss as you speculate Rick, but since Minelab does not break the numbers out separately neither you nor I know that. It is quite obvious that as far as forum activity and presence the Go-Find could be considered a No-Show, but frankly the type of people that frequent the forums were never the intended market for the Go-Find. I don't know - all I do know is I find it a bit hard to reconcile a massive increase in both sales volume and profitability with the abject failure you speculate about.

I can speculate also, and I actually don't disagree with you per se. I do not think the Go-Find was received as well as Minelab hoped, but much of that failure was probably a failure to establish proper marketing channels as much as anything to do with the machines. My bottom line guess is that for a company of Minelab's (Codans) size it was a first attempt and a learning experience. Going much farther than that without really knowing the true facts however is just pure speculation.

The reality shown in the numbers is that the big money for Minelab has been and continues to be the gold market. I think that they and First Texas have been so entranced by that shiny bauble that both took their eye off the coin, jewelry, and relic market for too long. That fixation on the African market has come at a cost. Minelab now appears to be addressing this lack of focus. It really is time for First Texas to step up also - in my opinion.

Steve, nice rebuttal.

You asked for my basis for the opinion I expressed, so I had to sit down and gather my thoughts a bit and find the threads which led me to my conclusion. My post wasn't about Minelab as a failure, just that the GO-FIND - as what it was intended to be a MASS MARKET leader - seems to have failed. Maybe if I hadn't have used the word "huge" it would have been less of a red flag.

The long post I put up was sort of a case study - of just the one program. I went back and edited my post to remove the section about Gary Schafer's leaving Minelab, explaining why I removed it - you're right - I don't know the corcumstances and what I posted might have invited unwarranted speculation.

Codan and Minelab are doing extremely well and anyone who bought the stock at it's lows of about 60 OZ cents is rolling in at since it's over $2 OZ now.

I didn't say that they were losing money on GO-FIND sales relative to production costs, just that their pay back on investment will take a lot longer than anticipated.

Your last paragraph, about ML and FT both failing to press forward with new technology beyond the goldfields - I agree heartily with. Now with the Equinox, ML has planted its flag firmly on the high ground of OUR favorite part of the metal detector world. FT - and anybody else who wants to remain in the high end has their work cut out for them.

My original post listed some things we still don't have. The EX will address some of these, but I suspect we will have to wait for truly new technology to get some of them. Here too, Minelab's technical expertise and the cash flows that they are capable of spending on development make them a force to be reckoned with.

I am keen to see what can still be done with PI design. you were an early exponent of using the GB system of a PI detector - the Infinium - to do things in a park which current VLF's had a hard time with. The practical limits of that seemed to be that the machines used, Infinium and TDI, didn't have remarkable depth when used that way.

Tom D. has clearly stated what a new world would be revealed with very short pulse delay PI's at the beach for small gold in salt. The protypes which Alexandre Tartar developed apparently worked smoothly in salt sand at about 8 micro seconds pulse delay - maybe there is hope there now that FT is working the issue.

Meanwhile, pre-orders for the Equinox keep piling up!

Rick Kempf
Gold Canyon AZ- where there is no gold



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2017 05:42PM by lytle78.