Nasa's Etrac Evaluation & Test Results/Status

With all the contraversy regarding the former Ireland made and now Malaysia made Mine Lab machines and which one is better, deeper, better build and parts, quality, ect. ect. I thought I might help settle the issue a little. I put Tom to task by testing my new in box Etrac. I had Tom put the Etrac through his entire "gammut" of testing and evaluation...which included the following: Bench, Garden and Field. Along with the Etrac also I sent a 5" SunRay coil.
The following is Toms Status. I'm VERY pleased with the results.
Now you be the judge....

Hi Aaron,

OK. Let's start with this:

With a plethora of samples, I have confirmed that 'relic' hunting and 'jewelry' hunting....................specifically with the E-TRAC ...... need to be treated nearly exactly the same. (((This may go in a direction that may not be so obvious, nor....what you may expect))). With my standardized test-targets.....I have confirmed with the ET......that plenty of jewelry and relics can ID as: 12-01. And it is in the '01' herein... whereby, you want to utilize MINIMAL discrimination. So, the QuickMask function becomes a critical necessity. In fresh water AND wet salt conditions, it is recommended to set QuickMask Ferrous Disc to 'wide open'..........or.............'35'...........or.............'31'. Do not employ any form of Conductive Disc. ...... as TOO many conductive targets (small and/or low conductive jewelry) will ID VERY low.....conductively. Now.............wide open, 35 or 31. This will be dictated by 'how much fatigue' you are willing to tolerate. The '31' is for iron littered beaches and/or inland iron infested jewelry hunting sites. Your other recommended settings are:

Multi-tone
Recovery = Fast (if you are inland)
Manual Sens = 24 to 30.........as much as you can handle without fatigue
Ferrous
Trash Density = Low (for beaches)
Ground = Neutral (if you are in mild dirt....as I suspect)
Variability = 30
Response Range = Long

Relic hunting inland is exactly the same as above..........with one exception: Trash Density = High for iron littered sites.

Interestingly, the E-TRAC employs a form of 'Boost Process' when Sens is set above '25'. One of the fairly obvious indications is ... whilst at higher Sens settings....... the delayed audio response over a target..... is a bit more pronounced.

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Coin hunting:

Here is where I have been struggling for several days. I have been trying to create a 'magic' program for inland 'old' coin hunting. The fact of the matter is: there is no magic programming secret. Reason: Using a $5.00 gold Half Eagle coin as my minimum conductivity platform/coin..........there have been TOO many real-world scenarios that have 'voided' any of my special 'coin' programs. With this coin slightly tilted.....................or....................... a few small flecks of rust in close proximity to the coin (this is representative of the real world) ............and the coin is 'nulled' (Disc'd). Ironically............with nothing Disc'd out..........the cross-hairs land in a white/clear region on the LCD screen where ........... flipping over to the special 'coin' program(s).....is NOT Disc'd out; yet, the detector 'nulls' over the coin. Sooooooo...............in a nutshell: detect primarily by audio responses. Secondarily, focus your efforts on the upper right quadrant of the screen. (( The factory 'coins' program is not bad, yet, has a few flaws..... due to real-world conditions )).

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Try to run this unit with Sens at/above '24' if possible. Do not utilize 'auto' Sens............if at all possible.
Yes, this unit does like a slightly slower than average sweep-speed.
I could give plenty of recommendations as to what types of specific audio programming should be performed; yet, this is dictated by your level of individualized hearing abilities. I lean more towards a loud and wide audio span.
This is a very powerful unit.............and you may find it performs better than any other detector you have......in the 9" to 11" range..........due to mineralization. Only head-to-head testing will validate this.

End of status.

Sincerely,

Tom



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2011 12:06PM by Aaron.

Hi Tom ,
Thanks for the report ......Did you get a reading on an air test on that Gold Coin with Quick Mask wide open ? .....Small gold should read anywhere between 12/01 to 12/06 ot so ...... If you were reading in the iron range , your ferrous numbers should have fallien in the 25-35 range , while the Conductive numbers should have read in the 40's ....For example if you were reading this gold coin in the iron range , you should have been seeing numbers like 34/45 or 32/ 47 or similar .......If you were reading numbers where the Ferrous was still on the 12 line and you're conductive numbers were low , that would make complete sense ....For example a 12/01 number would not be strainge at all ......It really surprises me to hear that it would read in the iron range ..... I would have LOVED to be the fly on the wall when you were adjusting your sensitivity down there in Florida with your neutral soil .....You should be able to dig DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP down there with EXTREMELY HIGH sensitivity settings !!.... Trying those high settings here in NY hinders you more than helps .....Headlights in the Fog syndrom !!..... Between the minerals and the trash you don't stand a snowballs chance in .......... Thanks again for your report ....Jim

Yes, I was capable of running the Sens on max (Sens '30')........and could ascertain exceptionally deep performance with the stock 11" DD coil... on higher conductors..........nearly as deep as a CZ with 10.5" coil.

The Half Eagle gold coin dirt testing was interesting. It would ID as (on average) 12/20.............with both ferrous and conductive numbers bouncing nearly the entire spectrum. Never stable numbers..........and never stable cross-hairs. Keep in mind......this resultant was somewhat expected....as ('some' deliberate) iron flecks were interjected into the equation.......for real-world emulate. A few times ..... I did acquire 34/49.......but this was far from the norm.

"Ironically............with nothing Disc'd out..........the cross-hairs land in a white/clear region on the LCD screen where ........... flipping over to the special 'coin' program(s).....is NOT Disc'd out; yet, the detector 'nulls' over the coin. Sooooooo...............in a nutshell: detect primarily by audio responses. Secondarily, focus your efforts on the upper right quadrant of the screen"

Tom...I think your statement above should be printed in BOLD in every E-Trac manual ! I have found that same phenomenon and whenever there is a 'blip' when I am hunting in a specific discrimination pattern, I always switch over the Quick Mask wide open to fully investigate.

I have only had my E-Trac for about 2 weeks, but learned that one fast. Pulled several wheaties out of a hunted out trashy site that way.

I know beat up wheaties are nothing great, but learning what you stated about how the cross hairs in Quick Mask will be in a spot where in a discrimination pattern it should hit but does not, makes me think that there are other variables down in the dirt nulling out the target.

For old coin hunting, any high tone 'blip' or cross hair hitting upper right on any sweep gets investigated.

Due to geophysics (not the detector/detectorist)......this is true with all detectors. It is only the textbook cherry-pickers....with no masking......that will ID with extreme 'lock-on' accuracy. Minelab is not immune to geophysics/mother nature!

When numbers are jumping like that , it is HIGHLY reccomended to run some discrimination in your program which would have eliminated the iron to begin with .... .....If there was more iron around , you may have missed the gold altogether as the iron tone would have taken over .........

My Quick Mask is left wide open so that when checking "iffy" targets , I can move slowly and hear everything that's in the hole ...as long as the iron is not directly on top of the gold , the gold or intended target will be heard ..... If you read page 81 in the Explorer and E Trac Handbook the page is entitled "All Metal vs Discrimination & Ferrous vs. Conductive Audio " ...Here it mentions that when running the old Explorer , that the rule of " All Metal is better" addage , does not really apply to the E Trac ......Underlined is " I guarantee if you always hunt in All Metal , you are missing some targets " ..........THIS is so true ..... I have dug holes where there was so much iron , I couldn't believe that I even heard a coin in the mess ......Bad enough that when switching over to Quick Mask ( All Metal ) to check the target , I almost missed the coin altogether !!...... I use to hunt in Quick Mask to hear everything until I realized how much better it was to have some sort of discrimination which brought out my intended targets so much more clearly !!.... The beauty of Quick Mask too is that you can see the numbers jump for each target that is being hit around the area you are checking ......You can tell right away that there is iron in the hole by the numbers that you see, as well as the tones ......When you look at the matrix you can tell right away if the cusor moves to the lower right hand corner , you know there is iron in the hole , and when you see the cursor jumping and staying more on the 12 or 13 line , that you also have a good target in the hole ...... To me that extended matrix on the E Trac is one of its best features ...It allows so much more finite discrimination ......I never even hear bottle caps when I hunt the E Trac !!..... I can knock them out simply because they have a high ferrous number that I can discrimnate with ease ...... Jim

<Interestingly, the E-TRAC employs a form of 'Boost Process' when Sens is set above '25'. One of the fairly obvious indications is ... whilst at higher Sens settings....... the delayed audio response over a target..... is a bit more pronounced. >

Has anyone noticed this effect on the older model explorers ?

I've had all the Explorers and E-Trac and I've noticed additional nulling with increased sensitivity but it wasn't (with any of them) showing up at a certain sensitivity level. Rather, it was always whenever I got too greedy with trying to run WAY over whatever auto or semi auto was "recommending" for current conditions. With the E-Trac for example, I usually run auto+3 more often than not and watch closely to see what it's "giving" me. Sometimes that is even too much, by evidence of considerable additional nulling over what's exibited with whatever the machine wants to run at. Sometimes I can get away with a little more than what +3 calculates out to be. Nulling and iron falsing goes up fast after that no matter what the actual number regardless of model.

Brad, thanks for the input ..... anyone else notice any boost at a certain sensitivity... Tom have you tested this effect on the older exp models?

I do recall that Sens at 26 (up to 32) on the older units seemed 'different'......IRT more than just simply a gain in Sens.

Hey Brad, do you also see increased VID (cursor) instability running manual too high, even on simple, mid-depth targets? The iron falsing is a killer in a nail field.

And, oh, sorry for the Buckeye loss last week.

Jim,

How much disc are you using? I have not altered Toms program as per his eval/test and realize as per Toms post above that hunting wide open quick mask will not have the steady lock on targets though getting lots of bouncing. Funny...I'm not getting hardly any targets bouncing to the bottom of the screen mostly to the very top and 2/3 back. Also the rusty crown caps are coming in on mine.
Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2011 01:57PM by Aaron.

Tom, again very gratefull to you for doing this test on the Etrac...
I have a few questions, but people have to bare in mind that i'm in the UK and we find different targets to you guys.....
I have always ran my Etrac wide open, nothing discriminated with a slow sweep speed.

Reading the above am i right in thinking that the Etrac actualy "needs" some discrimination?

I have just progressed to manual sensitivity and often run at 28, and sometimes 30...

I use the "ferrous" sounds because thats what i am used to with all my machines i have previously owned.....I have read somewhere that "conductive" tones allow more targets to sound through the iron grunts, do you think this is correct?
If so i need to retune my ears.....

In the UK our holy grail finds are Silver Hammered coins, i have been lucky enough to find quite a few of these....
These will come in at FE12 CO15 to FE12 CO24 (give or take a blip or 2)
Gold i have not been lucky enough to find myself, although i was with someone who found a Victoria full soveriegn and that came in (air test) at FE12 CO30

Thanks again Tom....

Yes, yes, and couldn't agree more!! I only wish I could have shot a video of my hunt yesterday and thank God there was a live witness. I think it would have been some unexpected learnings to a lot of folks. I know it sure did with the witness that has 25+ years in the hobby.

Aaron,
I run the entire 1 ferrous line dscriminated up to Conductive 39 .......From 1/40 to 1/50 I run open ....... There is a LOT more discrimination run differently in most all of my patterns , but this info that I just gave you will take care of your bottle caps .....I run my Quick Mask pretty much wide open ...Jim

Nails, and rusty steel , and other rusty objects is what I was referring to at the bottom of the screen ....I mention this as nails seem to be a problem to a lot of relic hunters ..... These items rear their ugly heads in the lower right hand corner ....I have them discriminated out on ALL my discrimination patterns ...... I'm going for either Gold or Silver wherever I hunt .... I'm not a big relic hunter ....Your patterns should be set up for what you are hunting for, and allow room for a number bounce or you will hear broken tones ......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2011 05:36PM by synthnut.

BuckeyeBrad -- can you elaborate? I have no idea what you are referring to...but am interested.

Steve

Blackadder.....I have yet to validate these 2 claims.......but sure have tried. Seems the more Disc utilized....the less fatiguing to the operator; yet, the more masking (and broken/blanking) that takes place.
And ............. running 'conductive' tones in locations where there are fair amounts of iron.......and TOO many nails sound like coins (high tone).

Took my T2 out yesterday for its maiden voyage using the 5" DD coil. There was a huge difference between using a disc of 2 over a disc of 10 in regards to masking/target seperation/good signal on co-located targets. Example....on disc 2....nailed a 5-6" penny and 2" off to the side and 3" above the penny was an aluminum beaver tail. At disc 10, I couldn't read the penny as a good signal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 09:33PM by TerraDigger.

True. Especially with T2/F70/F75 platform.

So what would be the optimum disc setting for the LTD in low to medium soil 2 or 5?
Thanks!

Here's a portion of a prior post by Tom D.

F75:
A Disc setting of '6' is strictly reserved for monotone. The intent here is to unmask all non-ferrous targets in nail infested sites. In carpets of nails......your max depth is going to be severely hindered anyway.......so.......a Disc of '6' is not what will be the depth inhibiting factor; rather, all of the masking from the nails will hinder overall/final depth.
If you are hunting in any form of multi-tone options (ie.....2-tone, 3, 3H, 4, 4H tones).......and ESPECIALLY if targets (good or bad) are sparse......this is where max depth can be achieved with regular frequency; subsequently, a Disc of '4' and less......is highly preferred. Disc '4' is the magic number whereby a formidable amount of depth is restored . When you are in a multi-tone option at this low a level of discrimination....you are not so much concerned about "Disc'ing out" targets..........because it is now the TONES that will do this for you..........rather, you are more concerned about GREATER depth being achieved, with tones utilizing human ear discrimination.

And finally; YES. In mineralized dirt.....and/or a partial masking scenario................a lower Disc setting WILL give better audible presentation/intelligence on a coin (and other targets) while in a multi-tone selection. On many occasions, I have witnessed up to 50% degradation of audio report of a high conductor coin.....simply by changing Disc from say '2'.......up to a Disc of '6'. Even though these lower Disc settings are substantially BELOW where a coin would Disc out.....it still affected the audio detection report.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2011 04:48AM by TerraDigger.

Quote

Blackadder.....I have yet to validate these 2 claims.......but sure have tried. Seems the more Disc utilized....the less fatiguing to the operator; yet, the more masking (and broken/blanking) that takes place.

My train of thought with discrimination is the recovery time....
I was working on the fact that if you allow the machine to sound all targets then the recovery time should be at its maximum, if you force the machine to disrcim a target/set of targets then whilst its discriming and nulling over that target it could quite easily miss a good target close by...
But i am happy to be proved wrong as sometimes running the Etrac (or any machine) this way can be very stressfull on the ears...

I'm not sure i understand this bit

Quote

running 'conductive' tones in locations where there are fair amounts of iron.......and TOO many nails sound like coins (high tone).

In Conductive tones shouldnt all coins be a low tone and all iron/nails shriek at you (hightone)?

I think the conductive tones are most usefull on UK sites....especialy for the hammered coins.....medieval people would cut a full coin into halfs and quarters, these are tiny tiny shreds of thin silver, conductive tones will alledgedly allow these tiny part coins to "jump" out amongst the other noise...
Apparently in ferrous tones the dominant iron signal will mask out the tiny sliver fragment signal.....

This is a question i actualy emailed minelab about and did not receive a reply.....

I don't understand the problem when using the Minelab machines when it comes to iron/ nails and Silver coins ......Your nails may have the same CONDUCTIVE tone as the Silver coins do, but they are a completely different FERROUS !!.....If you notch out the area where the Iron or the Nails reside on the Minelab matix ( which is a complely different area on the matrix than the Silver area on the matrix ) the iron and nails will NOT ring out ......They will null and the Silver will ring out THRU the nails and iron ....If you are dealing with CONDUCTIVE tones ONLY which is most of your VLF machines , you are left with a different scenario .....What am I missing here ? .....JIm

Nails and most iron will null out if you have those FE/CO numbers disc'ed out. So, say you blank out lines FE 30 - 35, almost all iron will null out. But if you crank your sensitivity above 26 or so, the bigger iron (rings, horse shoe, flat stock, bent(hooked over) nail, etc..) will break through and sometimes it rolls over into the FE 01-03 lines, but other times it gives me a lot of hits on the FE 12 line , especially in the CO 40-46 range. In other words iron falsing can hit on the 12 line. But for the most part it will null and there are other tricks to see if it is iron, even if it breaks through. At least that how I find it works on my machine.

Jim --

I have found on my Explorer (which not to confuse -- keep it mind it has a whole different "ferrous" and "conductive" scale; while the numbers do not correspond to an Etrac, the idea does), that sometimes nails (and other iron) will false -- just as coinnut said. However, one way I have found to tell is to simply pinpoint. If it's a "false," you often find that there is no target in the location corresponding to the "good-sounding" tones/favorable-looking ferrous-conductive number. The target, however, is three or four or five inches off to the side -- and it IDs solidly as iron. The only "good-sounding" or "good-looking" tones/IDs are off the "edges" of the iron.

Bottom line, the idea you have is correct -- the ferrous number is SUPPOSED to allow you to differentiate a high-conductive coin from a high-conductive piece of rusty iron. It works that way pretty often, too. There are times, however, when it's not foolproof, and you get "falses." And the falses can, just like with a single-frequency VLF machine, sound in some ways "good." It still takes some effort on the part of the user to "sort out" the iron from the goodies. While the ferrous number and conductive number available on the Etrac/Explorers DOES help, on many targets, you still have some falses to deal with.

Steve

Move slower with your coil , and inch your way to what you think may be a target ....Most of the time , by moving AROUND the target and hitting it from different directions, if you get a repeatable tone , it's a target ......In the case of an iron false , you not usually get a repeatable high tone when circling the target and hitting it from different angles ..... Moving slowly , you should also be able to tell the size of the target ....The Sovereign is really good for drawing a line around targets .... Then too you take it from where it comes from ....If you are in an area where you notice a lot of iron, you will have a lot of falsing going on .... Sure there are posibilities of coins being mixed in with all this Iron , so you either have to play the odds and leave the false tones alone , or satisfy your curiousity and dig the target .....Been there , done that !!...... Found plenty or Iron !!....LOL !!.... Circling the target for repeatable tones is what works best for me.... Better yet , throw a smalll 5-6 inch coil on there and move slowly .........Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 12:56PM by synthnut.

Quote
steveg
However, one way I have found to tell is to simply pinpoint. If it's a "false," you often find that there is no target in the location corresponding to the "good-sounding" tones/favorable-looking ferrous-conductive number.

I think this is a mistake many SE users make. I believe this is why you see Explorer XS and II users still making great finds because they don't have this option and therefore dig more holes. On any detector, if you have an iffy deep target and you pinpoint it, you are generally going to "lock on" to the larger or shallower ferrous target, and SOMETIMES believe it is a target that doesn't need recovered.

The best thing for an Explorer/Etrac is a sunray probe. Dig a 6" plug and rub your probe in there - if you null, move on. I'm pleasantly surprised enough times to keep me digging deep falses. One in five is a non-ferrous target. Not to bash the F75 because it has it's place, but I have never called a user over and had them consider it a diggable target when I've pulled out a deep dime on edge or silver collocated with a ferrous target.

I believe the bottom line is that if you dig more, you find more great stuff. I respect Tom, but I believe he's either operating the ETrac in a completely different environment thtn I'm operating the Explorer, the ETrac is considerably different than an Explorer, or he hasn't dug enough iffy tones yet to be able to hedge his bets on recovering a good target (vs. iron). Sorry Tom!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 02:55PM by Shambler.

shambler --

I do understand your point, and know that I WILL miss some targets this way, due to the pinpoint "locking on" to the larger/shallower/stronger target -- and thus thinking it was the "only" target. However, on the other hand, when time is limited, sometimes digging all the "falses" would be SUPREMELY time-consuming. While I have little time hunting with an Explorer, and it may prove to do a better job than other machines I've used, I do know that if I dug all the falses I had with other machines in the past -- given the fact that a "false" COULD be a hint of a co-located non-ferrous target, I'd get so bogged down digging trash that I'd almost NEVER get to a good target. Different sites, and different limitations, call for different approaches in my opinion, and I certainly acknowledge the truth in your advise. I simply have not been "rewarded" enough times when digging the "iffies" to be encouraged to routinely do so.

I will -- especially with the new machine -- try doing so more often, to see if the amount of "rewards" increases over prior attempts with prior machines.

Thanks!

Steve

Don't know about the Explorer SE since I still use the old XS but Shambler and
synthnut have some valid points and strategies.
I'll add one more to what they have to say.
The key to using the Explorer is to know which falses to go for which can be
governered by whether digging extra holes at a site is acceptable or not.
I know I am going for the right iffies if the nails I recover are bent or the ones
that have globs built up on it.
Really though the only way to learn the falses or if you like to call them iffies
is to dig a lot.
Learn what the tones and bounce of the cursor are telling you along with watching
the depth meter.
Really this "falsing" only applies to higher conductive coins on the Explorer such
as the dime and quarter.
Other signals that are not on the very top of the screen are usually easier to deal with.
I have read where some think the Pro coil tends to false more than other coils
available but I haven't used it.

One of the strengths of the Explorer is that the bouncing cursor is easier to lean than 20+ numbers zooming buy - in my opinion. I've also found that too much iron mask on an explorer will kill you with deep iffies because the null in certain directions on GOOD targets isn't far left corner hits, it's on the top to the right of that corner, but the nulling tricks you into thinking it's iron when in fact it's just registering into your iron mask area. I think Minelab was trying to fix that phenomenon with the FE12 line - I'm just not convinced, based on hunting with etrac users, it accomplished their intent.

Quote
steveg
Different sites, and different limitations, call for different approaches in my opinion, and I certainly acknowledge the truth in your advise

I agree completely. After the first several deep "iffies" are investigated in an area, you can better make a decision on whether to continue digging them. I just know that sometimes I'll get bored with swinging for a long time and just decide to dig an iffy that turns out to be a great find - then think, "crap", I have passed up 10 of those signals